a Vatatzes hypothesis

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Paul K Davis

a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 09 apr 2005 06:20:02

I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or Basile Batatzes), strategos
of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or Isaakios Batatzes),
blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor, and his [Isaac's] wife, Irene
Komnene (or Comnena). I have not found indication that this has been
suggested previously, though my study is far from exhaustive. My
considerations, and their consequences, are as follows:

On 2005 April 2, in response to a query of mine, Peter Stewart responded,
here at GEN-MEDIEVAL, that Theodora, the wife of Byzantine emperor Michael
VIII Palaeologus, "was daughter of Ioannes Doukas, a member of the Batatzes
family as son of the sebastokrator Isaakios Doukas, brother of Ioannes
Doukas Batatzes, emperor in Nicaea."

On 2000 Oct 30 Janko Pavsic wrote, also here at GEN-MEDIEVAL, "Basile
Batatzes, stratege de Cilicie et pere de Jean III est generalement
considere comme descendant de Theodore Batatzes (dux de Cilicie) et de
Eudoxie Komnene (fille de Jean II)". (I apologize for the loss of accent
marks from the original.) I translate this: Basil Vatatzes, strategos of
Cilicia and father of John III [Vatatzes] is generally considered as a
descendant of Theodore Vatatzes, duke of Cilicia, and of Eudoxia Komnene
(daughter of John II [Komnenos]).

Now Sturdza (1983) shows this Theodore Vatatzes and Eudoxie Comnene as
parents of five children: Andronic Comnene Vatatzes, Isaac, Alexis, Anne
Comnene Vatatzina, and Theodora Comnene. Chronologically, Basil, if indeed
a descendant of Theodore and Eudoxia, should be a son or grandson (or
possibly great-grandson). (Basil's son, John III, died in 1254.) Since
Basil is not listed among the children, I would then consider him a likely
grandson, presumably son of a son to preserve the family name (though
Byzantines in this time frame seem freely to have taken their mother's
family name if it were more prestigious). Of the two sons, Andronicos and
Isaac, I would consider first Isaac, for onomastic reasons, since one of
Basil's sons was named Isaac. Thus my hypothesis.

Now, the current queen of England, and many more people alive today, are
descended from Theodore Palaeologus, marquis of Montferrat, a grandson of
Michael VIII and Theodora. This is the Theodora identified above as
great-granddaughter of Basil Vatatzes, whom I hypothesize to be a son of
the earlier Isaac Vatatzes. The wife of this Isaac Vatatzes is identified
by Sturdza (1983) as a great-granddaughter of Isaac Komnenos, the first
sebastocrator, and his wife Irene, daughter of Demetrios, anti-king of
Georgia. The hypothesis therefore leads to a descent from the medieval
kings of Georgia, with the associated set of proposed Armenian-Georgian
descents from antiquity.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 09 apr 2005 11:01:02

There is a ``Dona Vataça'' (Lady Vatatza) or so in
Portuguese genealogy in the 13th century. I'll dig my
references on it - they stem from Manuel Abranches de
Soveral - and post them here. Her parentage can be
reasonably established.

fa

--- Paul K Davis <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote:
I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or
Basile Batatzes), strategos
of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or
Isaakios Batatzes),
blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor, and his
[Isaac's] wife, Irene
Komnene (or Comnena). I have not found indication
that this has been
suggested previously, though my study is far from
exhaustive. My
considerations, and their consequences, are as
follows:

On 2005 April 2, in response to a query of mine,
Peter Stewart responded,
here at GEN-MEDIEVAL, that Theodora, the wife of
Byzantine emperor Michael
VIII Palaeologus, "was daughter of Ioannes Doukas, a
member of the Batatzes
family as son of the sebastokrator Isaakios Doukas,
brother of Ioannes
Doukas Batatzes, emperor in Nicaea."

On 2000 Oct 30 Janko Pavsic wrote, also here at
GEN-MEDIEVAL, "Basile
Batatzes, stratege de Cilicie et pere de Jean III
est generalement
considere comme descendant de Theodore Batatzes (dux
de Cilicie) et de
Eudoxie Komnene (fille de Jean II)". (I apologize
for the loss of accent
marks from the original.) I translate this: Basil
Vatatzes, strategos of
Cilicia and father of John III [Vatatzes] is
generally considered as a
descendant of Theodore Vatatzes, duke of Cilicia,
and of Eudoxia Komnene
(daughter of John II [Komnenos]).

Now Sturdza (1983) shows this Theodore Vatatzes and
Eudoxie Comnene as
parents of five children: Andronic Comnene Vatatzes,
Isaac, Alexis, Anne
Comnene Vatatzina, and Theodora Comnene.
Chronologically, Basil, if indeed
a descendant of Theodore and Eudoxia, should be a
son or grandson (or
possibly great-grandson). (Basil's son, John III,
died in 1254.) Since
Basil is not listed among the children, I would then
consider him a likely
grandson, presumably son of a son to preserve the
family name (though
Byzantines in this time frame seem freely to have
taken their mother's
family name if it were more prestigious). Of the
two sons, Andronicos and
Isaac, I would consider first Isaac, for onomastic
reasons, since one of
Basil's sons was named Isaac. Thus my hypothesis.

Now, the current queen of England, and many more
people alive today, are
descended from Theodore Palaeologus, marquis of
Montferrat, a grandson of
Michael VIII and Theodora. This is the Theodora
identified above as
great-granddaughter of Basil Vatatzes, whom I
hypothesize to be a son of
the earlier Isaac Vatatzes. The wife of this Isaac
Vatatzes is identified
by Sturdza (1983) as a great-granddaughter of Isaac
Komnenos, the first
sebastocrator, and his wife Irene, daughter of
Demetrios, anti-king of
Georgia. The hypothesis therefore leads to a
descent from the medieval
kings of Georgia, with the associated set of
proposed Armenian-Georgian
descents from antiquity.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]









Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Kelsey Williams

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 09 apr 2005 16:00:35

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or Basile Batatzes),
strategos
of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or Isaakios
Batatzes),
blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor, and his [Isaac's] wife,
Irene
Komnene (or Comnena). I have not found indication that this has been
suggested previously, though my study is far from exhaustive. My
considerations, and their consequences, are as follows:

On 2005 April 2, in response to a query of mine, Peter Stewart
responded,
here at GEN-MEDIEVAL, that Theodora, the wife of Byzantine emperor
Michael
VIII Palaeologus, "was daughter of Ioannes Doukas, a member of the
Batatzes
family as son of the sebastokrator Isaakios Doukas, brother of
Ioannes
Doukas Batatzes, emperor in Nicaea."

On 2000 Oct 30 Janko Pavsic wrote, also here at GEN-MEDIEVAL, "Basile
Batatzes, stratege de Cilicie et pere de Jean III est generalement
considere comme descendant de Theodore Batatzes (dux de Cilicie) et
de
Eudoxie Komnene (fille de Jean II)". (I apologize for the loss of
accent
marks from the original.) I translate this: Basil Vatatzes,
strategos of
Cilicia and father of John III [Vatatzes] is generally considered as
a
descendant of Theodore Vatatzes, duke of Cilicia, and of Eudoxia
Komnene
(daughter of John II [Komnenos]).

Now Sturdza (1983) shows this Theodore Vatatzes and Eudoxie Comnene
as
parents of five children: Andronic Comnene Vatatzes, Isaac, Alexis,
Anne
Comnene Vatatzina, and Theodora Comnene. Chronologically, Basil, if
indeed
a descendant of Theodore and Eudoxia, should be a son or grandson (or
possibly great-grandson). (Basil's son, John III, died in 1254.)
Since
Basil is not listed among the children, I would then consider him a
likely
grandson, presumably son of a son to preserve the family name (though
Byzantines in this time frame seem freely to have taken their
mother's
family name if it were more prestigious). Of the two sons,
Andronicos and
Isaac, I would consider first Isaac, for onomastic reasons, since one
of
Basil's sons was named Isaac. Thus my hypothesis.

Now, the current queen of England, and many more people alive today,
are
descended from Theodore Palaeologus, marquis of Montferrat, a
grandson of
Michael VIII and Theodora. This is the Theodora identified above as
great-granddaughter of Basil Vatatzes, whom I hypothesize to be a son
of
the earlier Isaac Vatatzes. The wife of this Isaac Vatatzes is
identified
by Sturdza (1983) as a great-granddaughter of Isaac Komnenos, the
first
sebastocrator, and his wife Irene, daughter of Demetrios, anti-king
of
Georgia. The hypothesis therefore leads to a descent from the
medieval
kings of Georgia, with the associated set of proposed
Armenian-Georgian
descents from antiquity.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


Hello,

This is an extremely exciting theory! I've checked the ES, Polemis, Du
Cange and my notes from various other sources and can see no immediate
reason to discount or disprove it. Assuming it to be true, one could
create the following tentative pedigree of the Vatatzei:

1. Theodoros Vatatzes, doux of Cilicia, pansebastohypertatos, d. 1176
at Neokaisareia. m. Eudokia Komnene, dau. of Emperor Ioannes II
Komnenos Doukas (ES II: 177; Sturdza, 276).

2. Isaakios Vatatzes, blinded in 1182 by the Emperor Andronikos I. m.
ca. 1170 to Eirene, dau. of Stephanos Komnenos, pansebatos (ES II: 174;
Sturdza, 274, 276).

3. Basileios Vatatzes, domestikos tes Anatoles, doux of the Thrakesion
theme, d. ca. 1193. m. ca. 1189 to Na., dau. of Isaakios Angelos, a
Cilician landowner (ES II: 182; Polemis, 107).

4. Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Byzantium, &c.

Onomastically this seems very likely although the chronology between
generations two and three is fairly tight (assuming that the estimated
dates are accurate). A further indication of the probable accuracy of
this line would seem to come from its continued association with
Cilicia. I think this could quite possibly be the Georgian DFA
everyone's been looking for.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Don Stone

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Don Stone » 10 apr 2005 00:57:06

Paul K Davis wrote:
[snip]
Now, the current queen of England, and many more people alive today, are
descended from Theodore Palaeologus, marquis of Montferrat, a grandson of
Michael VIII and Theodora. This is the Theodora identified above as
great-granddaughter of Basil Vatatzes, whom I hypothesize to be a son of
the earlier Isaac Vatatzes. The wife of this Isaac Vatatzes is identified
by Sturdza (1983) as a great-granddaughter of Isaac Komnenos, the first
sebastocrator, and his wife Irene, daughter of Demetrios, anti-king of
Georgia. The hypothesis therefore leads to a descent from the medieval
kings of Georgia, with the associated set of proposed Armenian-Georgian
descents from antiquity.

Is this the same Irene discussed in an SGM/GM posting by Pierre Aronax dated
12 Feb. 2001:

Isaakios Komnenos, Duke of Antioch, Gov of Constantinople (1047-1104/7);

He was protoedros and duke of Antioch around 1074-1078.

m.ca 1072/3 ***Irene of Alania*** (d.1108) dau.of Demetrios, Anti-King of
Georgia

In fact, it seems that Irene of Alania was not the daughter of Demetrios of
Georgia. All that we know is that she was the first cousin of the Empress
Maria "of Alania" (rectius "of Georgia"). On her seal, Irene called herself
"Irene, protoproedrisa, daughter of the exousiokratos of the Alans".
Demetrios, paternal uncle of Maria of Alania, was not king of the Alans. But
her maternal uncle, Dorgholel, was, and it is him who must be the father of
Irene. On all this see the article of Jean-François Vannier, "Notes
généalogiques byzantino-georgiennes".


Further details from Pierre, dated 13 Feb. 2001:

My apologies: I have forgotten to precise that this article is published in
: Eupsychia. Mélanges offerts a Hélene Ahrweiler, Paris 1998 (Byzantina
Sorbonensia 16), tome II, p. 673-688. It examines four Byzantino-Georgian
unions [etc.]


-- Don Stone

Peter Stewart

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 apr 2005 01:39:34

The main problem with this hypothesis is the assumption that males of the
Batatzes family in the late 12th/early13th centuries, with their common
given names and provincial connections, were all born within the line of
descent from the most prominent individual of that surname in the 12th
century. But the Batatzai had been known in Adrianople for several
centuries, and may have had other - even many - branches. In this case, at
least the two definitely recorded sons of Theodoros Batatzes and Eudokia
Komnene took the surname Komnenos, whereas Emperor Ioannes III and his
brother Isaakios called themselved Doukas instead.

Before making conjectures about relationships, it is always a good idea to
check the secondary literature if not also the primary sources. A useful
starting point here is the article by Alexis G Savvides, 'Bibliographical
Advances in Byzantine Prosopography of the Middle and Later Periods',
_Medieval Prosopography_ 13 (1992).

Further comments interspersed:

"Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:1113058835.825991.58690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or Basile Batatzes),
strategos of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or
Isaakios Batatzes), blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor,
and his [Isaac's] wife, Irene Komnene (or Comnena). I have
not found indication that this has been suggested previously,
though my study is far from exhaustive. My considerations,
and their consequences, are as follows:

<snip>

Hello,

This is an extremely exciting theory! I've checked the ES, Polemis, Du
Cange and my notes from various other sources and can see no immediate
reason to discount or disprove it. Assuming it to be true, one could
create the following tentative pedigree of the Vatatzei:

1. Theodoros Vatatzes, doux of Cilicia, pansebastohypertatos, d. 1176
at Neokaisareia. m. Eudokia Komnene, dau. of Emperor Ioannes II
Komnenos Doukas (ES II: 177; Sturdza, 276).

This Theodoros Batatzes was dead before the synodal list of 6 March 1166,
and was not killed at the battle of Neokaisereia in 1176 - see Jean-Claude
Cheynet, 'Philadelphie, un quart de siècle de dissidence, 1182-1206',
_Philadelphie et autres études_, Byzantina Sorbonensia 4 (Paris, 1984) p.
41.

2. Isaakios Vatatzes, blinded in 1182 by the Emperor Andronikos I. m.
ca. 1170 to Eirene, dau. of Stephanos Komnenos, pansebatos (ES II: 174;
Sturdza, 274, 276).

Theodoros and Eudokia had a son named Isaakios, but his existence is known
only from a single poem [Cheynet, loc sit] and there is no reason to suppose
he was the same as his namesake married to Eirene Komnene (who would have
been his second cousin once removed).

3. Basileios Vatatzes, domestikos tes Anatoles, doux of the Thrakesion
theme, d. ca. 1193. m. ca. 1189 to Na., dau. of Isaakios Angelos, a
Cilician landowner (ES II: 182; Polemis, 107).

4. Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Byzantium, &c.

The paternity of Ioannes is uncertain, and various hypotheses are disussed
in the article by John Langdon on the rise of the Batatzai that I cited
before, and also in his PhD thesis (UCLA, 1978) 'John III Ducas Vatatzes'
Byzantine Imperium in Anatolian exile, 1222-54'.

Onomastically this seems very likely although the chronology between
generations two and three is fairly tight (assuming that the estimated
dates are accurate). A further indication of the probable accuracy of
this line would seem to come from its continued association with
Cilicia. I think this could quite possibly be the Georgian DFA
everyone's been looking for.

Demetrios Polemis, who conjectured that Basileios was the father of Ioannes
III, surmised that they came from an undistinguished line of the Batatzai,
explaining the use of the surname Doukas. He related them to the Bryennioi,
but not directly to the Komnenoi - see _The Doukai: A Contribution to
Byzantine Prosopography_ (London, 1968).

Peter Stewart

Stanford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Stanford Mommaerts-Browne » 10 apr 2005 05:11:16

Thank you Peter. Very valid reminder! AND some interesting additional
data.
F
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis


The main problem with this hypothesis is the assumption that males of the
Batatzes family in the late 12th/early13th centuries, with their common
given names and provincial connections, were all born within the line of
descent from the most prominent individual of that surname in the 12th
century. But the Batatzai had been known in Adrianople for several
centuries, and may have had other - even many - branches. In this case, at
least the two definitely recorded sons of Theodoros Batatzes and Eudokia
Komnene took the surname Komnenos, whereas Emperor Ioannes III and his
brother Isaakios called themselved Doukas instead.

Before making conjectures about relationships, it is always a good idea to
check the secondary literature if not also the primary sources. A useful
starting point here is the article by Alexis G Savvides, 'Bibliographical
Advances in Byzantine Prosopography of the Middle and Later Periods',
_Medieval Prosopography_ 13 (1992).

Further comments interspersed:

"Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:1113058835.825991.58690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or Basile Batatzes),
strategos of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or
Isaakios Batatzes), blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor,
and his [Isaac's] wife, Irene Komnene (or Comnena). I have
not found indication that this has been suggested previously,
though my study is far from exhaustive. My considerations,
and their consequences, are as follows:

snip

Hello,

This is an extremely exciting theory! I've checked the ES, Polemis, Du
Cange and my notes from various other sources and can see no immediate
reason to discount or disprove it. Assuming it to be true, one could
create the following tentative pedigree of the Vatatzei:

1. Theodoros Vatatzes, doux of Cilicia, pansebastohypertatos, d. 1176
at Neokaisareia. m. Eudokia Komnene, dau. of Emperor Ioannes II
Komnenos Doukas (ES II: 177; Sturdza, 276).

This Theodoros Batatzes was dead before the synodal list of 6 March 1166,
and was not killed at the battle of Neokaisereia in 1176 - see Jean-Claude
Cheynet, 'Philadelphie, un quart de siècle de dissidence, 1182-1206',
_Philadelphie et autres études_, Byzantina Sorbonensia 4 (Paris, 1984) p.
41.

2. Isaakios Vatatzes, blinded in 1182 by the Emperor Andronikos I. m.
ca. 1170 to Eirene, dau. of Stephanos Komnenos, pansebatos (ES II: 174;
Sturdza, 274, 276).

Theodoros and Eudokia had a son named Isaakios, but his existence is known
only from a single poem [Cheynet, loc sit] and there is no reason to
suppose
he was the same as his namesake married to Eirene Komnene (who would have
been his second cousin once removed).

3. Basileios Vatatzes, domestikos tes Anatoles, doux of the Thrakesion
theme, d. ca. 1193. m. ca. 1189 to Na., dau. of Isaakios Angelos, a
Cilician landowner (ES II: 182; Polemis, 107).

4. Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Byzantium, &c.

The paternity of Ioannes is uncertain, and various hypotheses are disussed
in the article by John Langdon on the rise of the Batatzai that I cited
before, and also in his PhD thesis (UCLA, 1978) 'John III Ducas Vatatzes'
Byzantine Imperium in Anatolian exile, 1222-54'.

Onomastically this seems very likely although the chronology between
generations two and three is fairly tight (assuming that the estimated
dates are accurate). A further indication of the probable accuracy of
this line would seem to come from its continued association with
Cilicia. I think this could quite possibly be the Georgian DFA
everyone's been looking for.

Demetrios Polemis, who conjectured that Basileios was the father of
Ioannes
III, surmised that they came from an undistinguished line of the Batatzai,
explaining the use of the surname Doukas. He related them to the
Bryennioi,
but not directly to the Komnenoi - see _The Doukai: A Contribution to
Byzantine Prosopography_ (London, 1968).

Peter Stewart



Paul K Davis

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 10 apr 2005 05:40:03

Thanks very much, Don. Oh well!

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Don Stone <don.stone@verizon.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/9/2005 4:57:30 PM
Subject: Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Paul K Davis wrote:
[snip]
Now, the current queen of England, and many more people alive today, are
descended from Theodore Palaeologus, marquis of Montferrat, a grandson
of
Michael VIII and Theodora. This is the Theodora identified above as
great-granddaughter of Basil Vatatzes, whom I hypothesize to be a son of
the earlier Isaac Vatatzes. The wife of this Isaac Vatatzes is
identified
by Sturdza (1983) as a great-granddaughter of Isaac Komnenos, the first
sebastocrator, and his wife Irene, daughter of Demetrios, anti-king of
Georgia. The hypothesis therefore leads to a descent from the medieval
kings of Georgia, with the associated set of proposed Armenian-Georgian
descents from antiquity.

Is this the same Irene discussed in an SGM/GM posting by Pierre Aronax
dated
12 Feb. 2001:

Isaakios Komnenos, Duke of Antioch, Gov of Constantinople
(1047-1104/7);

He was protoedros and duke of Antioch around 1074-1078.

m.ca 1072/3 ***Irene of Alania*** (d.1108) dau.of Demetrios,
Anti-King of
Georgia

In fact, it seems that Irene of Alania was not the daughter of Demetrios
of
Georgia. All that we know is that she was the first cousin of the Empress
Maria "of Alania" (rectius "of Georgia"). On her seal, Irene called
herself
"Irene, protoproedrisa, daughter of the exousiokratos of the Alans".
Demetrios, paternal uncle of Maria of Alania, was not king of the Alans.
But
her maternal uncle, Dorgholel, was, and it is him who must be the father
of
Irene. On all this see the article of Jean-François Vannier, "Notes
généalogiques byzantino-georgiennes".


Further details from Pierre, dated 13 Feb. 2001:

My apologies: I have forgotten to precise that this article is published
in
: Eupsychia. Mélanges offerts a Hélene Ahrweiler, Paris 1998 (Byzantina
Sorbonensia 16), tome II, p. 673-688. It examines four Byzantino-Georgian
unions [etc.]


-- Don Stone

Peter Stewart

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 apr 2005 06:52:54

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:aB_5e.5752$5F3.1069@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

<snip>

Demetrios Polemis, who conjectured that Basileios was the father of
Ioannes III, surmised that they came from an undistinguished line of the
Batatzai, explaining the use of the surname Doukas. He related them to the
Bryennioi, but not directly to the Komnenoi - see _The Doukai: A
Contribution to Byzantine Prosopography_ (London, 1968).

I should add that there has been a good deal of scholarly debate about a
letter in the Patmos archives, purportedly written by Ioannes III himself,
claiming that he was descended from the Angelos and Komnenos families - see
Venance Grumel, 'L'authenticité de la lettre de Jean Vatatzes, empereur de
Nicée, au Pope Grégoire IX', _Echos d'Orient_ 29 (1930), proposing that the
document is genuine. If so, it is the only known record suggesting such an
ancestry, and in every other surviving document or report Ioannes surnamed
himself simply Doukas. The letter may of course be real and yet the claim
untrue, or anyway exaggerated.

In his doctoral dissertation cited before, as well as in his later article
derived from this, John Langdon discussed the hypothesis of Konstantinos
Amantos that the emperor in fact belonged to this family, as son of
Konstantinos Doukas and a daughter of Ioannes Komnenos Batatzes who was most
probably a son of Theodoros and Eudokia Komnene. Langdon suggested [in _John
III Ducas Vatatzes' Byzantine Imperium in Anatolian Exile, 1222-54: The
Legacy of his Diplomatic, Military and Internal Program for the 'Restitutio
orbis'_, p. 34] that Komnenos blood might have been kept secret to protect
him in childhood following the revolt of the Batatzai against the regime of
Andronikos I - however, there is no proof that Ioannes III was even born at
this time, and some of the rebellious Batatzai flourished again soon
afterwards whereas the alleged concealement lasted much longer. I would find
it very difficult to credit that a Batatzes with at least two relatively
close links to imperial Komnenoi would prefer to boast of some less
illustrious connection to the Doukai instead, especially when he had only
gained the purple himself by default of more eligible heirs to his
father-in-law of the comparativley undistinguished Laskaris family.

Peter Stewart

Kelsey Williams

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 10 apr 2005 15:50:36

Ah, well . . . it was a nice idea. Thanks for the citations, though,
especially the Savvides article which I was unaware of and which sounds
very useful.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Peter Stewart wrote:
The main problem with this hypothesis is the assumption that males of
the
Batatzes family in the late 12th/early13th centuries, with their
common
given names and provincial connections, were all born within the line
of
descent from the most prominent individual of that surname in the
12th
century. But the Batatzai had been known in Adrianople for several
centuries, and may have had other - even many - branches. In this
case, at
least the two definitely recorded sons of Theodoros Batatzes and
Eudokia
Komnene took the surname Komnenos, whereas Emperor Ioannes III and
his
brother Isaakios called themselved Doukas instead.

Before making conjectures about relationships, it is always a good
idea to
check the secondary literature if not also the primary sources. A
useful
starting point here is the article by Alexis G Savvides,
'Bibliographical
Advances in Byzantine Prosopography of the Middle and Later Periods',

_Medieval Prosopography_ 13 (1992).

Further comments interspersed:

"Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:1113058835.825991.58690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
I hypothesize that a certain Basil Vatatzes (or Basile Batatzes),
strategos of Cilicia, was son of a certain Isaac Vatatzes (or
Isaakios Batatzes), blinded in 1182 by the Byzantine emperor,
and his [Isaac's] wife, Irene Komnene (or Comnena). I have
not found indication that this has been suggested previously,
though my study is far from exhaustive. My considerations,
and their consequences, are as follows:

snip

Hello,

This is an extremely exciting theory! I've checked the ES,
Polemis, Du
Cange and my notes from various other sources and can see no
immediate
reason to discount or disprove it. Assuming it to be true, one
could
create the following tentative pedigree of the Vatatzei:

1. Theodoros Vatatzes, doux of Cilicia, pansebastohypertatos, d.
1176
at Neokaisareia. m. Eudokia Komnene, dau. of Emperor Ioannes II
Komnenos Doukas (ES II: 177; Sturdza, 276).

This Theodoros Batatzes was dead before the synodal list of 6 March
1166,
and was not killed at the battle of Neokaisereia in 1176 - see
Jean-Claude
Cheynet, 'Philadelphie, un quart de siècle de dissidence,
1182-1206',
_Philadelphie et autres études_, Byzantina Sorbonensia 4 (Paris,
1984) p.
41.

2. Isaakios Vatatzes, blinded in 1182 by the Emperor Andronikos I.
m.
ca. 1170 to Eirene, dau. of Stephanos Komnenos, pansebatos (ES II:
174;
Sturdza, 274, 276).

Theodoros and Eudokia had a son named Isaakios, but his existence is
known
only from a single poem [Cheynet, loc sit] and there is no reason to
suppose
he was the same as his namesake married to Eirene Komnene (who would
have
been his second cousin once removed).

3. Basileios Vatatzes, domestikos tes Anatoles, doux of the
Thrakesion
theme, d. ca. 1193. m. ca. 1189 to Na., dau. of Isaakios Angelos,
a
Cilician landowner (ES II: 182; Polemis, 107).

4. Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Byzantium, &c.

The paternity of Ioannes is uncertain, and various hypotheses are
disussed
in the article by John Langdon on the rise of the Batatzai that I
cited
before, and also in his PhD thesis (UCLA, 1978) 'John III Ducas
Vatatzes'
Byzantine Imperium in Anatolian exile, 1222-54'.

Onomastically this seems very likely although the chronology
between
generations two and three is fairly tight (assuming that the
estimated
dates are accurate). A further indication of the probable accuracy
of
this line would seem to come from its continued association with
Cilicia. I think this could quite possibly be the Georgian DFA
everyone's been looking for.

Demetrios Polemis, who conjectured that Basileios was the father of
Ioannes
III, surmised that they came from an undistinguished line of the
Batatzai,
explaining the use of the surname Doukas. He related them to the
Bryennioi,
but not directly to the Komnenoi - see _The Doukai: A Contribution to

Byzantine Prosopography_ (London, 1968).

Peter Stewart

Paul K Davis

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 10 apr 2005 18:41:03

Thanks very much Peter.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/9/2005 10:57:31 PM
Subject: Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:aB_5e.5752$5F3.1069@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

snip

Demetrios Polemis, who conjectured that Basileios was the father of
Ioannes III, surmised that they came from an undistinguished line of
the
Batatzai, explaining the use of the surname Doukas. He related them to
the
Bryennioi, but not directly to the Komnenoi - see _The Doukai: A
Contribution to Byzantine Prosopography_ (London, 1968).

I should add that there has been a good deal of scholarly debate about a
letter in the Patmos archives, purportedly written by Ioannes III
himself,
claiming that he was descended from the Angelos and Komnenos families -
see
Venance Grumel, 'L'authenticité de la lettre de Jean Vatatzes, empereur
de
Nicée, au Pope Grégoire IX', _Echos d'Orient_ 29 (1930), proposing that
the
document is genuine. If so, it is the only known record suggesting such
an
ancestry, and in every other surviving document or report Ioannes
surnamed
himself simply Doukas. The letter may of course be real and yet the claim
untrue, or anyway exaggerated.

In his doctoral dissertation cited before, as well as in his later
article
derived from this, John Langdon discussed the hypothesis of Konstantinos
Amantos that the emperor in fact belonged to this family, as son of
Konstantinos Doukas and a daughter of Ioannes Komnenos Batatzes who was
most
probably a son of Theodoros and Eudokia Komnene. Langdon suggested [in
_John
III Ducas Vatatzes' Byzantine Imperium in Anatolian Exile, 1222-54: The
Legacy of his Diplomatic, Military and Internal Program for the
'Restitutio
orbis'_, p. 34] that Komnenos blood might have been kept secret to
protect
him in childhood following the revolt of the Batatzai against the regime
of
Andronikos I - however, there is no proof that Ioannes III was even born
at
this time, and some of the rebellious Batatzai flourished again soon
afterwards whereas the alleged concealement lasted much longer. I would
find
it very difficult to credit that a Batatzes with at least two relatively
close links to imperial Komnenoi would prefer to boast of some less
illustrious connection to the Doukai instead, especially when he had only
gained the purple himself by default of more eligible heirs to his
father-in-law of the comparativley undistinguished Laskaris family.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 apr 2005 02:59:39

"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20050409085752.39921.qmail@web30902.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
There is a ``Dona Vataça'' (Lady Vatatza) or so in
Portuguese genealogy in the 13th century. I'll dig my
references on it - they stem from Manuel Abranches de
Soveral - and post them here. Her parentage can be
reasonably established.

I hope Chico will find time to post this - I didn't realise the lady had
descendants in Portugal, assuming she was the same as "Doña Vataça", lady of
Huelva & Pedraja, the daughter of Eudokia Laskarina and a count of
Vintimille & Tende. Zurita says that this lady spent time in Portugal with
St Isabel, the Aragonese princess who married King Diniz. Later she was a
spy and agent in Castille for Isabel's brother King Jaime II, according to
Joaquín Miret y Sans, 'Tres princesas griegas en la corte de Jaime II de
Aragón', in _Revue hispanique_ 15 (1906). He says she died at an unknown
date after 17 August 1321.

Any further information about her from Portugese sources would be most
welcome.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 apr 2005 08:11:07

I cited:
Joaquín Miret y Sans, 'Tres princesas griegas en la corte de Jaime
II de Aragón', in _Revue hispanique_ 15 (1906)

Ford replied:

Peter,
Since you cite the article, I wonder, who are the other princessas
griegas. I am assuming that one of them is the lady under discussion.

Yes - the other princesses were her mother, Eudokia Laskarina (called
Doña Lascara), who married successively Guillermo Pedro, count of
Vintimille & Tende (father of Doña Vataça) and Arnaud Roger, count of
Pailhars; and Emperor Frederick II's illegitimate daughter (by Bianca
Lancia) Constanza (Anna), the widow of Eudokia's grandfather Ioannes
Doukas Batatzes, emperor in Nicaea.

Peter Stewart

Stanford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Stanford Mommaerts-Browne » 16 apr 2005 08:30:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis


"Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote in
message news:20050409085752.39921.qmail@web30902.mail.mud.yahoo.com...

There is a ``Dona Vataça'' (Lady Vatatza) or so in
Portuguese genealogy in the 13th century. I'll dig my
references on it - they stem from Manuel Abranches de
Soveral - and post them here. Her parentage can be
reasonably established.

I hope Chico will find time to post this - I didn't realise the lady had
descendants in Portugal, assuming she was the same as "Doña Vataça", lady
of
Huelva & Pedraja, the daughter of Eudokia Laskarina and a count of
Vintimille & Tende. Zurita says that this lady spent time in Portugal with
St Isabel, the Aragonese princess who married King Diniz. Later she was a
spy and agent in Castille for Isabel's brother King Jaime II, according to
Joaquín Miret y Sans, 'Tres princesas griegas en la corte de Jaime II de
Aragón', in _Revue hispanique_ 15 (1906). He says she died at an unknown
date after 17 August 1321.


Peter,
Since you cite the article, I wonder, who are the other princessas griegas.
I am assuming that one of them is the lady under discussion.
All the best,
Ford


Any further information about her from Portugese sources would be most
welcome.

Peter Stewart


Stanford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis

Legg inn av Stanford Mommaerts-Browne » 16 apr 2005 09:21:02

Thank you, kindly.
Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: a Vatatzes hypothesis


I cited:
Joaquín Miret y Sans, 'Tres princesas griegas en la corte de Jaime
II de Aragón', in _Revue hispanique_ 15 (1906)

Ford replied:

Peter,
Since you cite the article, I wonder, who are the other princessas
griegas. I am assuming that one of them is the lady under discussion.

Yes - the other princesses were her mother, Eudokia Laskarina (called
Doña Lascara), who married successively Guillermo Pedro, count of
Vintimille & Tende (father of Doña Vataça) and Arnaud Roger, count of
Pailhars; and Emperor Frederick II's illegitimate daughter (by Bianca
Lancia) Constanza (Anna), the widow of Eudokia's grandfather Ioannes
Doukas Batatzes, emperor in Nicaea.

Peter Stewart


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