A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in Portugal?

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Francisco Antonio Doria

A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in Portugal?

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 06 apr 2005 09:11:01

In my recent trip to Portugal I've been told of
Mauricio Antonino Fernandes' book, _Os Silvas
Históricos_. Mauricio is a very careful researcher.
Together with António de Sousa Lara (Professor Sousa
Lara is a former editor of the Portuguese _Anuário de
Nobreza de Portugal_) they are restoring the genealogy
of a complicated old mid-level Portuguese noble
family, the Moreiras.

I haven't seen the book, just know its main themes:
Mauricio derives the old Silva family, which we have
so far traced to one Guterre ``Alderete'' in the 11th
century - to another Guterre, Guterre Lovesendes,
which he found to be the son of Lovesendo Abenazar
[Abunazar or ibn Nazar], this one attested in a
well-known 999 document.

If I am correct in my argument, then the great Silva
family is agnatically descended from Ali and Fatima.
(Please refer to the files for the whole tale.)

The main Silva line usually bears the surname Teles da
Silva e Meneses, due to intermarriage with the Teles
de Meneses. Several titled grandees are descended from
that line - marquesses of Tarouca and Vagos, dukes of
Silva-Tarouca, princes of Eboli. The Portuguese de
Mello Breyner family whose head is the Count of Mafra,
is agnatically Teles da Silva e Meneses - I had the
pleasure to have dinner while in Portugal with (among
others) José Tomaz de Mello Breyner, whom I kidded
about this illustrious ancestry of his, and also with
Sousa Lara, who gave me more input on that matter.)

It's worth remembering the recently deceased writer D.
Sophia de Mello Breyner Andresen, whom I had the
pleasure to meet in Rio in the 60s.

There are two other possible agnatic lines descended
from Ali and Fatima - modulo my discussion - in
Portugal, the Sá and Valle families. The Moreira
family above mentioned is descended from them with one
brisure in the male line.

fa



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Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in Portugal?

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 06 apr 2005 13:41:02

Of course, Leo. I am going to order Mauricio's book
and will very likely have it here in 2-3 weeks.

Best, chico

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Chico

Any chance of obtaining details? I would love to
know them :-)
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:02 PM
Subject: A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in
Portugal?



In my recent trip to Portugal I've been told of
Mauricio Antonino Fernandes' book, _Os Silvas
Históricos_. Mauricio is a very careful
researcher.
Together with António de Sousa Lara (Professor
Sousa
Lara is a former editor of the Portuguese _Anuário
de
Nobreza de Portugal_) they are restoring the
genealogy
of a complicated old mid-level Portuguese noble
family, the Moreiras.

I haven't seen the book, just know its main
themes:
Mauricio derives the old Silva family, which we
have
so far traced to one Guterre ``Alderete'' in the
11th
century - to another Guterre, Guterre Lovesendes,
which he found to be the son of Lovesendo Abenazar
[Abunazar or ibn Nazar], this one attested in a
well-known 999 document.

If I am correct in my argument, then the great
Silva
family is agnatically descended from Ali and
Fatima.
(Please refer to the files for the whole tale.)

The main Silva line usually bears the surname
Teles da
Silva e Meneses, due to intermarriage with the
Teles
de Meneses. Several titled grandees are descended
from
that line - marquesses of Tarouca and Vagos, dukes
of
Silva-Tarouca, princes of Eboli. The Portuguese de
Mello Breyner family whose head is the Count of
Mafra,
is agnatically Teles da Silva e Meneses - I had
the
pleasure to have dinner while in Portugal with
(among
others) José Tomaz de Mello Breyner, whom I kidded
about this illustrious ancestry of his, and also
with
Sousa Lara, who gave me more input on that
matter.)

It's worth remembering the recently deceased
writer D.
Sophia de Mello Breyner Andresen, whom I had the
pleasure to meet in Rio in the 60s.

There are two other possible agnatic lines
descended
from Ali and Fatima - modulo my discussion - in
Portugal, the Sá and Valle families. The Moreira
family above mentioned is descended from them with
one
brisure in the male line.

fa



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norenxaq

Re: A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in Portugal?

Legg inn av norenxaq » 06 apr 2005 17:31:02

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:

In my recent trip to Portugal I've been told of
Mauricio Antonino Fernandes' book, _Os Silvas
Históricos_. Mauricio is a very careful researcher.
Together with António de Sousa Lara (Professor Sousa
Lara is a former editor of the Portuguese _Anuário de
Nobreza de Portugal_) they are restoring the genealogy
of a complicated old mid-level Portuguese noble
family, the Moreiras.


Hello:

Whom does one contact to purchase a copy of Mauricio's work?

thank-you

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: A male line descent from Ali and Fatima in Portugal?

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 06 apr 2005 19:51:02

I have an email address for the bookstore in the Baixa
Lisboa which specializes on genealogy books. I'll
later post it here.

fa

--- norenxaq <norenxaq@san.rr.com> wrote:

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:

In my recent trip to Portugal I've been told of
Mauricio Antonino Fernandes' book, _Os Silvas
Históricos_. Mauricio is a very careful
researcher.
Together with António de Sousa Lara (Professor
Sousa
Lara is a former editor of the Portuguese _Anuário
de
Nobreza de Portugal_) they are restoring the
genealogy
of a complicated old mid-level Portuguese noble
family, the Moreiras.


Hello:

Whom does one contact to purchase a copy of
Mauricio's work?

thank-you





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