FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

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John Parsons

FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

Legg inn av John Parsons » 04 apr 2005 13:11:01

The copiously documented site <genealogie-mittelalter.de> has Ida/Oda,
countess of Burghausen, as a full sister of Lothar III. According to this
site, Ida/Oda had 3 sons; no daughters of hers are named. (This site is,
BTW, well worth a look--the only one I've found so far that deals fully, for
example, w/famlies such as the Hunfried/Burkhard dukes of Swabia. There
are, occasionally, internal contradictions w/an individual appearing w/one
parentage under his/her birth family and w/different parents under his/her
marriage family. In most of these cases, however, conflicting information
is presented from sources and authorities alike, so the reader can reach
his/her own conclusion.)

Regards

John P.


From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?
Date: 3 Apr 2005 23:59:20 -0700

I wrote:

As far as I know (NB I haven't seen the work or looked into
this carefully) the switch of Simon's maternity from Gertrude
to Hedwig was due to Emile Duvernoy in _Catalogue des
actes des ducs de Lorraine de 1048 à 1220_ (Nancy, 1915).

Thanks to the marvel of scanning & the generosity of a newsgroup
subscriber, I have now seen this and can confirm that Duvernoy was the
first to give Hedwig of Formbach as the first wife of Duke Thierry and
mother of Duke Simon, in an appendix to the first part of his catalogue
originally published in 1912.

I must also report, with surprise, that Georges Poull appears not to
have read this very thoroughly. Although the main argument about the
wives of Thierry is not presented with conclusive proofs, some other
evidence is given later, in a discussion of dates, that adds a
chronological difficulty unmentioned by Poull to the possibility of
Simon's wife Adelaide having been a daughter of Hedwig and sister of
Lothar von Supplinburg as he came to believe.

This is a charter dated 22 June after Simon's brother Henry became
bishop of Toul (1126), most likely in 1128. Adelaide is stated to have
consented to the business, but she was not there due to being "vicina
partui" (near to giving birth). This means she was unlikely to have
been daughter of another husband of Hedwig before the latter married
Simon's father, since this evidently took place between 3 March 1079
(when a letter from Pope Gregory VII mentions that Duke Thierry was
seeking to marry another widow) and 15 August of the same year (when
the union was - still? - being celebrated on the Feast of the
Assumption). In other words, if Adelaide had been Lothar's full- or
half-sister, she would have been born in 1074/1078 and bearing children
until she was at least 47 and more probably over 49 years old.

We know that she had much older children at the time she was heavily
pregnant - a daughter was married on the same date as the charter of 22
June, and a younger son had been made a bishop up to two-and-a-quarter
years earlier, so that Adelaide's approaching confinement was out of
the ordinary in any event.

Another point that may have a bearing on the ancestry of Count Jean of
Ponthieu's mother: Hedwig of Formbach had a daughter named Ida, by
either one of her known husbands, who married a Bavarian count,
Sieghard X of Burghausen (killed in battle on 5 February 1104).
Chronologically and from onomastics it appears that Ida was a
full-sister to Lothar von Supplinburg (although other evidence suggests
that he was an only child of his father, whose mother was Ida of
Querfurt). Given that the relationship linking the counts of Ponthieu &
Flanders quite probably traced through a Lorraine connection, perhaps
this Ida and her German husband could have been grandparents to the
wife of Guy II of Ponthieu. Does anyone have a record of the Burghausen
family at this time?

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

Re: FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 apr 2005 13:11:02

"John Parsons" wrote:
The copiously documented site <genealogie-mittelalter.de> has
Ida/Oda,
countess of Burghausen, as a full sister of Lothar III. According to
this
site, Ida/Oda had 3 sons; no daughters of hers are named.

Thanks, this is the same information as given in ES III Tafel 29 - I
presume nothing more is known about the family at that time. Another
Ida appears in the following generation, married ca 1164 to Count
Liutpold of Plain. From the lack of other heirs/heiresses noted in the
lineage, it doesn't seem likely that Counbtess Ida of Ponthieu could
have been her first cousin.

Peter Stewart

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