FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

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John Parsons

FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

Legg inn av John Parsons » 03 apr 2005 13:00:02

It is true that we must often rely on one isolated piece of evidence for
everything we know about a certain filiation, because nothing else survives
to make the point. This, however, is one case in which additional evidence
would make Poull's interpretation more convincing.

Stepmother/stepchild relationships were common in the Middle Ages & there
are easily provable cases in which stepchildren or children-in-law referred
to a father's second wife or a mother-in-law as "mother." Edward I's wife
Eleanor of Castile, for example, called Eleanor of Provence "sa mere et la
nostre" in at least one instance [P.R.O., S.C. 1/30/44 (Blanquefort, 17 Jan.
1287], & Edward II often called his stepmother Margaret of France his
"mother." The document cited by Poull could well fall into this polite mode
of address or reference to a stepmother.

Regards

John P.


From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:21:49 GMT

""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BAY7-F11438E54D0B77F0E10C8D6B2390@phx.gbl...

snip

According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G.
Waitz
(MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain &
Gertrude of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the
four, & the only information given about any of them is that one was a
great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of
Frederick Barbarossa. Based on this statement, that dau. has been
identified as follows:

1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother).

If Georges Poull was correct in his revised views on the parentage of Duke
Simon I, then a different solution would have to be found - in _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue La Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991) he gave Simon as the eldest son of Duke
Thierry II not by his first wife, Hedwig of Formbach, but from his second
marriage, to Gertrude of Flanders, citing a charter of 11 April 1126 naming
his father Thierry and his mother Gertrude. Consequently Simon would have
been a uterine half-brother of the daughters Gertrude had from her first
marriage, so that his wife could not have been one of them.

Poull considered that Simon's wife Duchess Adelaide was a maternal
half-sibling of Emperor Lothar II von Supplinburg - daughter of her
father-in-law Thierry's first wife Hedwig of Formbach - rather than Simon
himself being this lady's son as had been thought previously.

Have you ruled this out, and if so can you tell us the reasons?

Peter Stewart


Rashid Amora

Re: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

Legg inn av Rashid Amora » 03 apr 2005 13:00:03

If Adelaide's father was Gerhard von Supplinburg, she must have been born in
1075 or earlier, since Gerhard died in 1075. Gertrude was married to Thierry
II in about 1095 or later. If Simon was a son from this marriage he must
have been born in 1095 or later. This would make Adelaide more than 20 years
older then Simon I. I don't think this is a good solution to solve this
problem.


""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:BAY7-F79DF88794C269A477ACA4B23A0@phx.gbl...
It is true that we must often rely on one isolated piece of evidence for
everything we know about a certain filiation, because nothing else
survives to make the point. This, however, is one case in which
additional evidence would make Poull's interpretation more convincing.

Stepmother/stepchild relationships were common in the Middle Ages & there
are easily provable cases in which stepchildren or children-in-law
referred to a father's second wife or a mother-in-law as "mother." Edward
I's wife Eleanor of Castile, for example, called Eleanor of Provence "sa
mere et la nostre" in at least one instance [P.R.O., S.C. 1/30/44
(Blanquefort, 17 Jan. 1287], & Edward II often called his stepmother
Margaret of France his "mother." The document cited by Poull could well
fall into this polite mode of address or reference to a stepmother.

Regards

John P.


From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:21:49 GMT

""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BAY7-F11438E54D0B77F0E10C8D6B2390@phx.gbl...

snip

According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G.
Waitz
(MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain &
Gertrude of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the
four, & the only information given about any of them is that one was a
great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of
Frederick Barbarossa. Based on this statement, that dau. has been
identified as follows:

1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother).

If Georges Poull was correct in his revised views on the parentage of Duke
Simon I, then a different solution would have to be found - in _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue La Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991) he gave Simon as the eldest son of
Duke
Thierry II not by his first wife, Hedwig of Formbach, but from his second
marriage, to Gertrude of Flanders, citing a charter of 11 April 1126
naming
his father Thierry and his mother Gertrude. Consequently Simon would have
been a uterine half-brother of the daughters Gertrude had from her first
marriage, so that his wife could not have been one of them.

Poull considered that Simon's wife Duchess Adelaide was a maternal
half-sibling of Emperor Lothar II von Supplinburg - daughter of her
father-in-law Thierry's first wife Hedwig of Formbach - rather than Simon
himself being this lady's son as had been thought previously.

Have you ruled this out, and if so can you tell us the reasons?

Peter Stewart



Peter Stewart

Re: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 apr 2005 14:37:42

Poull certainly didn't change his mind so lightly that the comparative ages
of the parties is sufficient reason to counter his argument.

As for Simon's charter in April 1126 calling Gertrude his mother, I haven't
seen the text of this - it was a gift to the canons of Toul, where
Gertrude's son Henry became bishop around the same time (elected in March,
he was consecrated in July) and some time after Gertrude's death (she is
thought to have died after 1117). It would be pretty unusual in the
circumstances to name a deceased step-mother as "mother" when making such a
gift in her memory along with his father's, without reference to the soul of
donor's actual mother as well. Alberic of Troisfontaines stated that Duke
Simon was Duchess Gertrude's son - see MGH SS XXIII p. 792: "...Gertrudem
ducissam de Nanceio, que peperit Theoderico filio Gerardi ducem Symonem".

A count of Ponthieu once named as his "mother", unqualified, a woman who had
evidently been his wet-nurse - but this was not along with his father in the
context of a donation for the sake of the departed. However, there is also a
charter of Duke Simon dated "regnante rege augusto Romanorum fratre nostro
Lotharo", so that if Simon was only brother-in-law rather than uterine
half-brother of Lothar von Supplinburg, the German king & later emperor,
then a similar vagueness must have been used in stating their relationship.

Poull also mentions a Simon from the first marriage of Duke Thierry, saying
that he died before August 1095 when his father's marriage to Gertrude took
place. Her son, the allegedly younger namesake & half-brother of this Simon
who became duke, was apparently also known as Sigismund in his youth.

The evidence presented in the book cited earlier may not be conclusive, but
this does need to be taken into account in the discussion if speculations
depending on the contrary are to be accepted.

Peter Stewart



"Rashid Amora" <doosje@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:WSQ3e.19806$Sc7.17626@amsnews05.chello.com...
If Adelaide's father was Gerhard von Supplinburg, she must have been born
in 1075 or earlier, since Gerhard died in 1075. Gertrude was married to
Thierry II in about 1095 or later. If Simon was a son from this marriage
he must have been born in 1095 or later. This would make Adelaide more
than 20 years older then Simon I. I don't think this is a good solution to
solve this problem.


""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:BAY7-F79DF88794C269A477ACA4B23A0@phx.gbl...
It is true that we must often rely on one isolated piece of evidence for
everything we know about a certain filiation, because nothing else
survives to make the point. This, however, is one case in which
additional evidence would make Poull's interpretation more convincing.

Stepmother/stepchild relationships were common in the Middle Ages & there
are easily provable cases in which stepchildren or children-in-law
referred to a father's second wife or a mother-in-law as "mother."
Edward I's wife Eleanor of Castile, for example, called Eleanor of
Provence "sa mere et la nostre" in at least one instance [P.R.O., S.C.
1/30/44 (Blanquefort, 17 Jan. 1287], & Edward II often called his
stepmother Margaret of France his "mother." The document cited by Poull
could well fall into this polite mode of address or reference to a
stepmother.

Regards

John P.


From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:21:49 GMT

""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BAY7-F11438E54D0B77F0E10C8D6B2390@phx.gbl...

snip

According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G.
Waitz
(MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain &
Gertrude of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the
four, & the only information given about any of them is that one was a
great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of
Frederick Barbarossa. Based on this statement, that dau. has been
identified as follows:

1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother).

If Georges Poull was correct in his revised views on the parentage of
Duke
Simon I, then a different solution would have to be found - in _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue La Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991) he gave Simon as the eldest son of
Duke
Thierry II not by his first wife, Hedwig of Formbach, but from his second
marriage, to Gertrude of Flanders, citing a charter of 11 April 1126
naming
his father Thierry and his mother Gertrude. Consequently Simon would have
been a uterine half-brother of the daughters Gertrude had from her first
marriage, so that his wife could not have been one of them.

Poull considered that Simon's wife Duchess Adelaide was a maternal
half-sibling of Emperor Lothar II von Supplinburg - daughter of her
father-in-law Thierry's first wife Hedwig of Formbach - rather than Simon
himself being this lady's son as had been thought previously.

Have you ruled this out, and if so can you tell us the reasons?

Peter Stewart





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