Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wife of

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Gjest

Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wife of

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mar 2005 20:34:12

Chris and other interested parties:

The accounts of the early Poyntz family do not identify the wife of
Pons fitz Simon, father of Nicholas I Poyntz who died bef 2 Nov 1223
(McLean, Family of Poyntz, pps 28, 29, 94, 95; CP X: 669-676.

Chris Phillips in his excellent discussion of the early Argentein
family on his website notes that John Argentein was married to Helena,
apparently an heiress of Great Wymondsley. He further notes that she
had a sister Ala, also an heiress, married to Nicholas fitz Robert.
This couple were parents of one Roger fitz Nicholas. He also notes
that the inheritance passed to the Poyntz family.

Given the chronology it seems possible that the son Roger dsp and may
have had an unknown sister married to Pons fitz Simon. This is one
scenario that would explain the inheritance coming to the Poyntz family
as well as the origin of Nicholas I Poyntz's given name.

Does anyone have any information related to this possible
identification?

Doug Smith

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 31 mar 2005 06:01:48

Dear Doug ~

I believe the people you are talking about are ancestors of Katherine
Fitz Nichol, wife of Robert Poyntz, of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, as
indicated in the descendency chart below. Katherine Fitz Nichol is
descended from Ala, wife of Nicholas Fitz Robert.

Katherine (Fitz Nichol) Poyntz is ancestress to two colonial
immigrants, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Harris, of Hartford, Connecticut,
and Thomas Owsley, of Virginia.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158
2 Roger Fitz Nicholas d: 1230
+ Hawisia Paynel
3 Nicholas Fitz Roger d: 1261
+ Sybil de Elmore
4 Radulph Fitz Nicholas d: 1290/1291
5 Nicholas Fitz Radulph d: 1312
+ Matilda Ranne
6 John Fitz Nichol d: JUL 1375
+ Joan
7 Reginald (Reynold) Fitz Nichol
8 Thomas Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1354 d: 16 NOV
1418
+ Margery
9 Katherine Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1378 d:
AFT 1448
+ Robert Poyntz b: 15 JUN 1359 d: 15
JUN 1439
10 Nicholas Poyntz b: ABT 1379 d:
AFT 17 SEP 1450
+ Elizabeth Mill b: ABT 1411 d:
1433/1441


alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Chris and other interested parties:

The accounts of the early Poyntz family do not identify the wife of
Pons fitz Simon, father of Nicholas I Poyntz who died bef 2 Nov 1223
(McLean, Family of Poyntz, pps 28, 29, 94, 95; CP X: 669-676.

Chris Phillips in his excellent discussion of the early Argentein
family on his website notes that John Argentein was married to
Helena,
apparently an heiress of Great Wymondsley. He further notes that she
had a sister Ala, also an heiress, married to Nicholas fitz Robert.
This couple were parents of one Roger fitz Nicholas. He also notes
that the inheritance passed to the Poyntz family.

Given the chronology it seems possible that the son Roger dsp and may
have had an unknown sister married to Pons fitz Simon. This is one
scenario that would explain the inheritance coming to the Poyntz
family
as well as the origin of Nicholas I Poyntz's given name.

Does anyone have any information related to this possible
identification?

Doug Smith

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 31 mar 2005 06:50:51

In message of 31 Mar, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Doug ~

I believe the people you are talking about are ancestors of Katherine
Fitz Nichol, wife of Robert Poyntz, of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, as
indicated in the descendency chart below. Katherine Fitz Nichol is
descended from Ala, wife of Nicholas Fitz Robert.

Katherine (Fitz Nichol) Poyntz is ancestress to two colonial
immigrants, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Harris, of Hartford, Connecticut,
and Thomas Owsley, of Virginia.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158

Ala filia Guido?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Chris Phillips

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 31 mar 2005 09:11:20

Douglas Richardson:
1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158

Tim Powys-Lybbe:
Ala filia Guido?

Or to be pedantic, maybe even Ala daughter of Guy, or else Ala filia
Guidonis?

Chris Phillips

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 31 mar 2005 09:51:24

In message of 31 Mar, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Douglas Richardson:
1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158

Tim Powys-Lybbe:
Ala filia Guido?

Or to be pedantic, maybe even Ala daughter of Guy, or else Ala filia
Guidonis?

Thanks for the words of a scholar. The embarrassment is to admit that i
was taught latin for perhaps eight years and have succeeded in
forgetting almost all of it.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mar 2005 17:01:14

Thanks Doug, Chris and Tim

I understand the relationship to the later Poyntz's based on Smyth's
Lives of the Berkeleys and the relationship to Ala filia Guy of Great
Wymondley. The inheritance would appear to have passed through
Katherine FitzNichol to the Poyntz's much later.

However, it does not rule out the possibility that an unknown daughter
of Nicholas fitz Robert married Simon fitz Pons. However, the only
circumstantial evidence would be the introduction of the Nicholas name
into the Poyntz family. There are no consanguinity issues with this
theory since Katherine FitzNichol was about seven generations later.
There is of course, virtually no evidence that I know of. I would be
interested in knowing if anyone has seen any evidence about the
Identify of Simon fitz Pons, father of Nicholas I Poyntz.

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mar 2005 17:19:23

The identity of the wife of Simon fitz Pons is what i meant.

Doug

Ray Montgomery

RE: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Ray Montgomery » 31 mar 2005 19:51:01

Douglas et al:
Please find below the following ancestry for one Priscilla Palmer wife of
John Baker of Jamestown and also Accomack Co VA
Who also descends from Robert Poyntz.
1. Robert Poyntz married Katherine Fitznichols
2. Thomas Poyntz married to a Jane
3. Margaret Poyntz married to Ralph Greville
4. John Greville married to Jane Forster
5. Richard Greville married to Elena Herbert
6. Mary Greville married to William Palmer
7. Giles or egidius Palmer married to Muriel Field
8. Edward Palmer Esquire married to Merial Palmer
9. Reverend Thomas Palmer married to Joanne Jordan Listed in his father
Edward Palmer Esq.'s will of 22 november 1624 London England as my son
Thomas Palmer of Virginia
10. Pricilla Palmer wife of John Baker of Jamestown.

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
[mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:02 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wife of
Pons fitz Simon

Dear Doug ~

I believe the people you are talking about are ancestors of Katherine
Fitz Nichol, wife of Robert Poyntz, of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, as
indicated in the descendency chart below. Katherine Fitz Nichol is
descended from Ala, wife of Nicholas Fitz Robert.

Katherine (Fitz Nichol) Poyntz is ancestress to two colonial
immigrants, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Harris, of Hartford, Connecticut,
and Thomas Owsley, of Virginia.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158
2 Roger Fitz Nicholas d: 1230
+ Hawisia Paynel
3 Nicholas Fitz Roger d: 1261
+ Sybil de Elmore
4 Radulph Fitz Nicholas d: 1290/1291
5 Nicholas Fitz Radulph d: 1312
+ Matilda Ranne
6 John Fitz Nichol d: JUL 1375
+ Joan
7 Reginald (Reynold) Fitz Nichol
8 Thomas Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1354 d: 16 NOV
1418
+ Margery
9 Katherine Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1378 d:
AFT 1448
+ Robert Poyntz b: 15 JUN 1359 d: 15
JUN 1439
10 Nicholas Poyntz b: ABT 1379 d:
AFT 17 SEP 1450
+ Elizabeth Mill b: ABT 1411 d:
1433/1441


alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Chris and other interested parties:

The accounts of the early Poyntz family do not identify the wife of
Pons fitz Simon, father of Nicholas I Poyntz who died bef 2 Nov 1223
(McLean, Family of Poyntz, pps 28, 29, 94, 95; CP X: 669-676.

Chris Phillips in his excellent discussion of the early Argentein
family on his website notes that John Argentein was married to
Helena,
apparently an heiress of Great Wymondsley. He further notes that she
had a sister Ala, also an heiress, married to Nicholas fitz Robert.
This couple were parents of one Roger fitz Nicholas. He also notes
that the inheritance passed to the Poyntz family.

Given the chronology it seems possible that the son Roger dsp and may
have had an unknown sister married to Pons fitz Simon. This is one
scenario that would explain the inheritance coming to the Poyntz
family
as well as the origin of Nicholas I Poyntz's given name.

Does anyone have any information related to this possible
identification?

Doug Smith

Leo van de Pas

Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wif

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 01 apr 2005 11:51:02

Dear Ray, Doug, Doug and all,

I feel disappointed with the reply of Douglas Richardson contained in this
message.
He just has to know more than I do (and does) about Gateway Ancestors. I do
not have the two he mentions as descendants of Katherine FitzNichol. Thanks
to Ray Montgomery, I know now a little more about her descendants. I did not
have the Rev. Thomas Palmer, again thanks to Ray Montgomery I do now, but I
also have Margaret Brent and Col. Giles Brent both Gateway ancestors and
descendants of Katherine FitzNichol.

She is also ancestor of Lord Charles Greville Montagu, Governor of South
Carolina,
Lady Caroline Lamb, the late Queen Mother, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah
Ferguson,
Prince Rainier of Monaco, the Aga Khan, Sir Winston Churchill, Lady Antonia
Fraser

actors Hugh Grant, Rachel Ward and Gloria Grahame

and on gen-med Ian Fettes, Tony Hoskins and Tim Powys-Lybbe.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Montgomery" <rmontgomery@calrepair.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:40 AM
Subject: RE: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wife of
Pons fitz Simon


Douglas et al:
Please find below the following ancestry for one Priscilla Palmer wife of
John Baker of Jamestown and also Accomack Co VA
Who also descends from Robert Poyntz.
1. Robert Poyntz married Katherine Fitznichols
2. Thomas Poyntz married to a Jane
3. Margaret Poyntz married to Ralph Greville
4. John Greville married to Jane Forster
5. Richard Greville married to Elena Herbert
6. Mary Greville married to William Palmer
7. Giles or egidius Palmer married to Muriel Field
8. Edward Palmer Esquire married to Merial Palmer
9. Reverend Thomas Palmer married to Joanne Jordan Listed in his father
Edward Palmer Esq.'s will of 22 november 1624 London England as my son
Thomas Palmer of Virginia
10. Pricilla Palmer wife of John Baker of Jamestown.

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
[mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:02 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Early Poyntz Family - possible identification of the wife of
Pons fitz Simon

Dear Doug ~

I believe the people you are talking about are ancestors of Katherine
Fitz Nichol, wife of Robert Poyntz, of Iron Acton, Gloucestershire, as
indicated in the descendency chart below. Katherine Fitz Nichol is
descended from Ala, wife of Nicholas Fitz Robert.

Katherine (Fitz Nichol) Poyntz is ancestress to two colonial
immigrants, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Harris, of Hartford, Connecticut,
and Thomas Owsley, of Virginia.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

1 Nicholas Fitz Robert d: 5 MAY 1189
+ Ala Fitz Guido d: AFT 1158
2 Roger Fitz Nicholas d: 1230
+ Hawisia Paynel
3 Nicholas Fitz Roger d: 1261
+ Sybil de Elmore
4 Radulph Fitz Nicholas d: 1290/1291
5 Nicholas Fitz Radulph d: 1312
+ Matilda Ranne
6 John Fitz Nichol d: JUL 1375
+ Joan
7 Reginald (Reynold) Fitz Nichol
8 Thomas Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1354 d: 16 NOV
1418
+ Margery
9 Katherine Fitz Nichol b: ABT 1378 d:
AFT 1448
+ Robert Poyntz b: 15 JUN 1359 d: 15
JUN 1439
10 Nicholas Poyntz b: ABT 1379 d:
AFT 17 SEP 1450
+ Elizabeth Mill b: ABT 1411 d:
1433/1441


alden@mindspring.com wrote:
Chris and other interested parties:

The accounts of the early Poyntz family do not identify the wife of
Pons fitz Simon, father of Nicholas I Poyntz who died bef 2 Nov 1223
(McLean, Family of Poyntz, pps 28, 29, 94, 95; CP X: 669-676.

Chris Phillips in his excellent discussion of the early Argentein
family on his website notes that John Argentein was married to
Helena,
apparently an heiress of Great Wymondsley. He further notes that she
had a sister Ala, also an heiress, married to Nicholas fitz Robert.
This couple were parents of one Roger fitz Nicholas. He also notes
that the inheritance passed to the Poyntz family.

Given the chronology it seems possible that the son Roger dsp and may
have had an unknown sister married to Pons fitz Simon. This is one
scenario that would explain the inheritance coming to the Poyntz
family
as well as the origin of Nicholas I Poyntz's given name.

Does anyone have any information related to this possible
identification?

Doug Smith


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