Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlecote

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Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlecote

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mar 2005 15:41:01

a2a gives the following document relating to Thomas Lucy and his son William

Warwickshire Record Office, Lucy of Charlecote

FILE [no title] - ref. L6/1671 - date: c. 1420
<IMG SRC="http://www.a2a.org.uk/images/file.gif" WIDTH="32" HEIGHT="19" BORDER="0" DATASIZE="158">[from Scope and Content] Memoranda relating to the Lucy, Hardwick
and Hampton families. [Dated by reference to 'William lucy that now ye ward to
King herry the vte that now ys', William Lucy succeeded as a minor in 1415 on
the death of his father Thomas Lucy.
The IPM of Sir Thomes is at the PRO, reference C138/11/14, dated 3 HV.

Also the Shakespeare's birthplace "Archer of Tamworth" catalogue reference
DR37 has documents identifying Sir Thomas's widow as Alice, kinswoman and heir
of Margery "Huggeford", later married to Richard Archer, whom William had to
sue to get his title deeds.

The relatonship of Alice to the Hugfords is given in the VCH for Cambridge
and Ely, Vol X, p.233, under the manor of Stow cum Quy.

"Walter de Trailly, lord by 1282, (Footnote 9) died in 1289, leaving a minor
son John (d. 1304), whose mother Eleanor retained Quy in dower (Footnote 10)
until 1315. (Footnote 11) John's son Walter, of age in 1323, (Footnote 12)
died, recently knighted, soon after 1346. (Footnote 13) His widow Elizabeth had
the manor house by 1348. (Footnote 14) His son John (d. 1360) was in turn
succeeded by his son Sir John, (Footnote 15) of age in 1365. (Footnote 16) When he
died in 1400, Quy passed to his son Reynold Trailly. Sir John's widow Joan (d.
1432) retained for life the third of the manor held of the king in chief.
(Footnote 17)
When Reynold died childless in 1401 his heir was Margery, daughter of his
grandfather John's daughter Catherine Pabenham and wife of Sir William Hugford
(d. 1404), of Higford (Salop). (Footnote 18) When Margery died in 1409, their
son William Hugford was already dead. In 1412 Sir Humphrey Stafford occupied the
manor as guardian of William the son's young daughter Margery (d. 1413). The
younger William's sister and eventual heir Alice married first Sir Thomas Lucy
(d. 1415) of Charlecote (Warws.), lord in 1413, (Footnote 19) secondly in
1415 Richard Archer, who initially retained Quy by the curtesy after Alice died
in 1420. (Footnote 20) Her eldest son William Lucy, of age in 1425, (Footnote
21) who had livery of Joan Trailly's third in 1433, (Footnote 22) had already
alienated his rights and reversions at Quy in the mid 1420s.

From: British History Online
Source: Stow cum Quy: Manors. A History of the County of Cambridge and the
Isle of Ely: Volume X, Andrew Wareham (Editor) (2002).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18863
Date: 30/03/2005
© Copyright 2003-2005 University of London & History of Parliament Trust"

Tim Powys-Lybbe's site gives the Lucy pedigree, and states that Sir Thomas
was MP for Warwickshire, so there should be details about him in the
Parliamentary History

http://www.freewebz.com/powys/pl_tree/wc04/wc04_058.htm

Now, bearing in mind that the above sources indicate that Sir Thomas's son
William was born c.1401, making it likely that any sister of his was of similar
age, such a sister could likely have had children as late as 1440. So, if Sir
Thomas had a daughter Alice (named doubtless after her mother), there seems
to be no difficulty in accepting that she could have had a daughter Elizabeth
by her Holdenby husband, Elizabeth in turn marrying the Henry Hatton whose
death is stated as occurring in 1511. Say e.g. that Elizabeth was born in 1430,
and that her husband was about the same age: then he would only have been about
80 at death.

I would conclude that Alice Holdenby could well have been Sir Thomas'
daughter, as stated by Ormerod

MM

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlecote

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 30 mar 2005 15:41:02

In message of 30 Mar, Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

a2a gives the following document relating to Thomas Lucy and his son William

Warwickshire Record Office, Lucy of Charlecote

FILE [no title] - ref. L6/1671 - date: c. 1420
IMG SRC="http://www.a2a.org.uk/images/file.gif" WIDTH="32" HEIGHT="19" BORDER="0" DATASIZE="158">[from Scope and Content] Memoranda relating to the Lucy, Hardwick
and Hampton families. [Dated by reference to 'William lucy that now ye ward to
King herry the vte that now ys', William Lucy succeeded as a minor in 1415 on
the death of his father Thomas Lucy.
The IPM of Sir Thomes is at the PRO, reference C138/11/14, dated 3 HV.

Also the Shakespeare's birthplace "Archer of Tamworth" catalogue reference
DR37 has documents identifying Sir Thomas's widow as Alice, kinswoman and heir
of Margery "Huggeford", later married to Richard Archer, whom William had to
sue to get his title deeds.

The relatonship of Alice to the Hugfords is given in the VCH for Cambridge
and Ely, Vol X, p.233, under the manor of Stow cum Quy.

"Walter de Trailly, lord by 1282, (Footnote 9) died in 1289, leaving a minor
son John (d. 1304), whose mother Eleanor retained Quy in dower (Footnote 10)
until 1315. (Footnote 11) John's son Walter, of age in 1323, (Footnote 12)
died, recently knighted, soon after 1346. (Footnote 13) His widow Elizabeth had
the manor house by 1348. (Footnote 14) His son John (d. 1360) was in turn
succeeded by his son Sir John, (Footnote 15) of age in 1365. (Footnote 16) When he
died in 1400, Quy passed to his son Reynold Trailly. Sir John's widow Joan (d.
1432) retained for life the third of the manor held of the king in chief.
(Footnote 17)
When Reynold died childless in 1401 his heir was Margery, daughter of his
grandfather John's daughter Catherine Pabenham and wife of Sir William Hugford
(d. 1404), of Higford (Salop). (Footnote 18) When Margery died in 1409, their
son William Hugford was already dead. In 1412 Sir Humphrey Stafford occupied the
manor as guardian of William the son's young daughter Margery (d. 1413). The
younger William's sister and eventual heir Alice married first Sir Thomas Lucy
(d. 1415) of Charlecote (Warws.), lord in 1413, (Footnote 19) secondly in
1415 Richard Archer, who initially retained Quy by the curtesy after Alice died
in 1420. (Footnote 20) Her eldest son William Lucy, of age in 1425, (Footnote
21) who had livery of Joan Trailly's third in 1433, (Footnote 22) had already
alienated his rights and reversions at Quy in the mid 1420s.

From: British History Online
Source: Stow cum Quy: Manors. A History of the County of Cambridge and the
Isle of Ely: Volume X, Andrew Wareham (Editor) (2002).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18863
Date: 30/03/2005
© Copyright 2003-2005 University of London & History of Parliament Trust"

Tim Powys-Lybbe's site gives the Lucy pedigree, and states that Sir Thomas
was MP for Warwickshire, so there should be details about him in the
Parliamentary History

http://www.freewebz.com/powys/pl_tree/wc04/wc04_058.htm

Now, bearing in mind that the above sources indicate that Sir Thomas's son
William was born c.1401, making it likely that any sister of his was of similar
age, such a sister could likely have had children as late as 1440. So, if Sir
Thomas had a daughter Alice (named doubtless after her mother), there seems
to be no difficulty in accepting that she could have had a daughter Elizabeth
by her Holdenby husband, Elizabeth in turn marrying the Henry Hatton whose
death is stated as occurring in 1511. Say e.g. that Elizabeth was born in 1430,
and that her husband was about the same age: then he would only have been about
80 at death.

I would conclude that Alice Holdenby could well have been Sir Thomas'
daughter, as stated by Ormerod


Many thanks for that account of the Hugfords, most useful.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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