I have some more questions regarding Catherine de Baillon's ancestors
and their properties in France.
I am curious as to whether it is known how the seigneuries of Vaugien
belonging to Waast de Marle in the early 16th century and that of La
Falaise belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their
possession. Were they in fact the first members of the de Marle family
to hold them? Are they likely to have been acquired by their respective
marriages or by outright purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous
holders of either seigneurie?
Roger LeBlanc
de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
Waast de Marle is my 13th great-grandfather. I descend from him in two ways actually. Through his great-grandson Francois Miville 1634-1711 and also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
I show that Waast de Marle ~1546-1608 married Madeleine Le Sueur ~1556-<1608
Madeleine was the daughter of Gabriel Le Sueur of St. Merry,Rue Beaubourg,Paris,France and I'm not showing any titles for him although there may be one.
On the contrary Waast was the son of Claude, Seigneur of Vaugien ~1525 and his wife Antoinette L'Huiller ~1525. Antoinette has an extensive pedigree but Claude's parents were Waast de Marle, Seigneur of la Falaise, Vaugien, Villers-Saint-Paul ~1470 ->1545 and Jacqueline Dupuy ~1500-<1535
Waast in turn had parents Jean, Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul ~1440->1485 and Sybille LeBlond ~1440
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger LeBlanc <leblancr@mts.net>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:24:11 -0600
Subject: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
I have some more questions regarding Catherine de Baillon's ancestors and their properties in France.
I am curious as to whether it is known how the seigneuries of Vaugien belonging to Waast de Marle in the early 16th century and that of La Falaise belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their possession. Were they in fact the first members of the de Marle family to hold them? Are they likely to have been acquired by their respective marriages or by outright purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous holders of either seigneurie?
Roger LeBlanc
I show that Waast de Marle ~1546-1608 married Madeleine Le Sueur ~1556-<1608
Madeleine was the daughter of Gabriel Le Sueur of St. Merry,Rue Beaubourg,Paris,France and I'm not showing any titles for him although there may be one.
On the contrary Waast was the son of Claude, Seigneur of Vaugien ~1525 and his wife Antoinette L'Huiller ~1525. Antoinette has an extensive pedigree but Claude's parents were Waast de Marle, Seigneur of la Falaise, Vaugien, Villers-Saint-Paul ~1470 ->1545 and Jacqueline Dupuy ~1500-<1535
Waast in turn had parents Jean, Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul ~1440->1485 and Sybille LeBlond ~1440
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger LeBlanc <leblancr@mts.net>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:24:11 -0600
Subject: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
I have some more questions regarding Catherine de Baillon's ancestors and their properties in France.
I am curious as to whether it is known how the seigneuries of Vaugien belonging to Waast de Marle in the early 16th century and that of La Falaise belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their possession. Were they in fact the first members of the de Marle family to hold them? Are they likely to have been acquired by their respective marriages or by outright purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous holders of either seigneurie?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
This is the right family. The senior Waast (grandfather to the other
one) is the one I am asking about. I don't know that he or any other
member of the family besides Nicolas de Marle and his descendants were
ever seigneur de La Falaise. That is part of the information I am
looking for.
wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
one) is the one I am asking about. I don't know that he or any other
member of the family besides Nicolas de Marle and his descendants were
ever seigneur de La Falaise. That is part of the information I am
looking for.
wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
Waast de Marle is my 13th great-grandfather. I descend from him in two ways actually. Through his great-grandson Francois Miville 1634-1711 and also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
I show that Waast de Marle ~1546-1608 married Madeleine Le Sueur ~1556-<1608
Madeleine was the daughter of Gabriel Le Sueur of St. Merry,Rue Beaubourg,Paris,France and I'm not showing any titles for him although there may be one.
On the contrary Waast was the son of Claude, Seigneur of Vaugien ~1525 and his wife Antoinette L'Huiller ~1525. Antoinette has an extensive pedigree but Claude's parents were Waast de Marle, Seigneur of la Falaise, Vaugien, Villers-Saint-Paul ~1470 ->1545 and Jacqueline Dupuy ~1500-<1535
Waast in turn had parents Jean, Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul ~1440->1485 and Sybille LeBlond ~1440
-
RayC
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
I also descend from François Miville 1634-1711 but I haven't researched the
line further. Would it be possible to post the ahnentafel of François or
part of it if it is too long?
Thanks,
Ray Cassidy
<wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C702B3518CF350-F54-47CA8@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com...
also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
there may be one.
but Claude's parents were Waast de Marle, Seigneur of la Falaise, Vaugien,
Villers-Saint-Paul ~1470 ->1545 and Jacqueline Dupuy ~1500-<1535
belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their possession. Were
they in fact the first members of the de Marle family to hold them? Are they
likely to have been acquired by their respective marriages or by outright
purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous holders of either
seigneurie?
line further. Would it be possible to post the ahnentafel of François or
part of it if it is too long?
Thanks,
Ray Cassidy
<wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C702B3518CF350-F54-47CA8@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com...
Waast de Marle is my 13th great-grandfather. I descend from him in two
ways actually. Through his great-grandson Francois Miville 1634-1711 and
also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
I show that Waast de Marle ~1546-1608 married Madeleine Le Sueur
~1556-<1608
Madeleine was the daughter of Gabriel Le Sueur of St. Merry,Rue
Beaubourg,Paris,France and I'm not showing any titles for him although
there may be one.
On the contrary Waast was the son of Claude, Seigneur of Vaugien ~1525 and
his wife Antoinette L'Huiller ~1525. Antoinette has an extensive pedigree
but Claude's parents were Waast de Marle, Seigneur of la Falaise, Vaugien,
Villers-Saint-Paul ~1470 ->1545 and Jacqueline Dupuy ~1500-<1535
Waast in turn had parents Jean, Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul ~1440->1485
and Sybille LeBlond ~1440
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger LeBlanc <leblancr@mts.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:24:11 -0600
Subject: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
I have some more questions regarding Catherine de Baillon's ancestors and
their properties in France.
I am curious as to whether it is known how the seigneuries of Vaugien
belonging to Waast de Marle in the early 16th century and that of La Falaise
belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their possession. Were
they in fact the first members of the de Marle family to hold them? Are they
likely to have been acquired by their respective marriages or by outright
purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous holders of either
seigneurie?
Roger LeBlanc
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:05:17 -0500, "RayC" <rcassidy12@comcast.net>
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
You are wrong. It is not Francois or his sister Madeleine that
descends from the Marle family, but the wife of their brother
Jacques, Catherine de Baillon.
Some idiot mixed the parents of Pierre, their father, with those
of Catherine, and published this on the internet.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
I also descend from François Miville 1634-1711 but I haven't researched the
line further. Would it be possible to post the ahnentafel of François or
part of it if it is too long?
wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C702B3518CF350-F54-47CA8@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com...
Waast de Marle is my 13th great-grandfather. I descend from him in two
ways actually. Through his great-grandson Francois Miville 1634-1711 and
also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
You are wrong. It is not Francois or his sister Madeleine that
descends from the Marle family, but the wife of their brother
Jacques, Catherine de Baillon.
Some idiot mixed the parents of Pierre, their father, with those
of Catherine, and published this on the internet.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com
-
Gjest
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
Thank you Denis for pointing this out. I checked the Catherine Baillon site and they confimed with an additional note by Raymond Ouillet that these parents were indeed a mistake. I have corrected my files and added their note for future researchers to be aware of this trap.
Fortunately for me, it turns out I actually descend from Waast De Marle ~1470 - > 1545 Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul in one additional way. That is through his daughter Paule ~1500 - > 1572 who married Pierre Hotman ~1485- 27 Mar 1554
Will Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:07:32 -0500
Subject: Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:05:17 -0500, "RayC" <rcassidy12@comcast.net>
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
You are wrong. It is not Francois or his sister Madeleine that
descends from the Marle family, but the wife of their brother
Jacques, Catherine de Baillon.
Some idiot mixed the parents of Pierre, their father, with those
of Catherine, and published this on the internet.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com
Fortunately for me, it turns out I actually descend from Waast De Marle ~1470 - > 1545 Seigneur of Villers-St-Paul in one additional way. That is through his daughter Paule ~1500 - > 1572 who married Pierre Hotman ~1485- 27 Mar 1554
Will Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:07:32 -0500
Subject: Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:05:17 -0500, "RayC" <rcassidy12@comcast.net>
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
I also descend from François Miville 1634-1711 but I haven't researched the
line further. Would it be possible to post the ahnentafel of François or
part of it if it is too long?
wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C702B3518CF350-F54-47CA8@mblk-d46.sysops.aol.com...
Waast de Marle is my 13th great-grandfather. I descend from him in two
ways actually. Through his great-grandson Francois Miville 1634-1711 and
also through Francois' sister Madeleine Miville 1636->1708
You are wrong. It is not Francois or his sister Madeleine that
descends from the Marle family, but the wife of their brother
Jacques, Catherine de Baillon.
Some idiot mixed the parents of Pierre, their father, with those
of Catherine, and published this on the internet.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com
-
John P. DuLong
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
Roger LeBlanc wrote:
I believe that Waast de Marle was the first in the family to hold the
seigneurie of Vaugien and likewise his brother Nicholas de Marle was the
first seigneur in the family of La Falaise. Their father, Jean de
Marle, had been the seigneur of Villiers-St-Paul. We never found any
records associating the father with either Vaugien or La Falaise.
There mother was Sibylle Le Blond and we know nothing of her ancestry.
It is possible the property came to them through their mother, or
alternatively through their wives, but we do not know. Unfortunately,
the documents we used from the Cabinet des titres were silent on this issue.
I went back and checked the De Marle "Livre de raison" for clues and
found nothing pertinent to your questions.
I do not recall if these seigneuries are mentioned in it, but you might
want to consult Léon Mirot's _Inventaire analytique des hommages rendus
à la Chambre de France_. There were at least two volumes of this work
published in 1932 and 1936. Mirot provides information about
seigneuries in the region of Paris. Since Villiers-St-Paul [near Creil,
Ile-de-France (Oise)], Vaugien [near Paris, Ile-de-France (Yvelines)]
and La Falaise [Ile-de-France (Yvelines)] are all near Paris, they might
be mentioned in Mirot's book. I honestly can not recall if we checked
for information about these lands in Mirot's book. We used it for other
purposes.
In general, other than identifying the location of seigneuries, we did
not explore how they came into the hands of families. We were only
concerned with the transmission of seigneuries if it was necessary to
solve a genealogical problem. If other documents existed that proved a
connection between generations, then we did not dwell on how a
seigneurie came to be owned by a person. For example, we watched
closely how the seigneurie of Vaux-sur-Orge passed from the Morhier to
the Le Bouteillier families because it documented and clarified a
lineage issue (and I believe this is what we used Mirot for).
I might add that untangling information about seigneuries can be
particularly difficult if the data is not mentioned in genealogical
records. One would have to hunt for notarial records, cartularies, and
other administrative documents or historical works. The research would
be challenging. There are, at least to my knowledge, very few good
resources for distinguishing and identifying seigneuries in France. I
know of some works in specific areas, like Mirot's books for the Paris
region, and an atlas I am recalling about seigneuries in Normandie, but
in general this area is not as well documented as genealogy and heraldry
is for various regions. Of course in New France, we are much more
fortunate. There are many books and maps to help us understand the
seigneuries our ancestors held and locating the original documents to
further research in Québec is relatively simple.
I hope this helps. You are asking some very good questions and I am
having a hard time trying to remember the details of Catherine Baillon's
ancestry. My head is stuffed now with Anglo-Irish and Scottish names,
dates, and places because I have been helping my wife on her research.
I yearn for the day I can return to my French research and reacquaint
myself with some good and honest French nobles and peasants! Perhaps
one of my colleagues could better answer your questions.
JP
I have some more questions regarding Catherine de Baillon's ancestors
and their properties in France.
I am curious as to whether it is known how the seigneuries of Vaugien
belonging to Waast de Marle in the early 16th century and that of La
Falaise belonging to his brother Nicolas de Marle came into their
possession. Were they in fact the first members of the de Marle family
to hold them? Are they likely to have been acquired by their respective
marriages or by outright purchase? Also does anyone know of any previous
holders of either seigneurie?
Roger LeBlanc
I believe that Waast de Marle was the first in the family to hold the
seigneurie of Vaugien and likewise his brother Nicholas de Marle was the
first seigneur in the family of La Falaise. Their father, Jean de
Marle, had been the seigneur of Villiers-St-Paul. We never found any
records associating the father with either Vaugien or La Falaise.
There mother was Sibylle Le Blond and we know nothing of her ancestry.
It is possible the property came to them through their mother, or
alternatively through their wives, but we do not know. Unfortunately,
the documents we used from the Cabinet des titres were silent on this issue.
I went back and checked the De Marle "Livre de raison" for clues and
found nothing pertinent to your questions.
I do not recall if these seigneuries are mentioned in it, but you might
want to consult Léon Mirot's _Inventaire analytique des hommages rendus
à la Chambre de France_. There were at least two volumes of this work
published in 1932 and 1936. Mirot provides information about
seigneuries in the region of Paris. Since Villiers-St-Paul [near Creil,
Ile-de-France (Oise)], Vaugien [near Paris, Ile-de-France (Yvelines)]
and La Falaise [Ile-de-France (Yvelines)] are all near Paris, they might
be mentioned in Mirot's book. I honestly can not recall if we checked
for information about these lands in Mirot's book. We used it for other
purposes.
In general, other than identifying the location of seigneuries, we did
not explore how they came into the hands of families. We were only
concerned with the transmission of seigneuries if it was necessary to
solve a genealogical problem. If other documents existed that proved a
connection between generations, then we did not dwell on how a
seigneurie came to be owned by a person. For example, we watched
closely how the seigneurie of Vaux-sur-Orge passed from the Morhier to
the Le Bouteillier families because it documented and clarified a
lineage issue (and I believe this is what we used Mirot for).
I might add that untangling information about seigneuries can be
particularly difficult if the data is not mentioned in genealogical
records. One would have to hunt for notarial records, cartularies, and
other administrative documents or historical works. The research would
be challenging. There are, at least to my knowledge, very few good
resources for distinguishing and identifying seigneuries in France. I
know of some works in specific areas, like Mirot's books for the Paris
region, and an atlas I am recalling about seigneuries in Normandie, but
in general this area is not as well documented as genealogy and heraldry
is for various regions. Of course in New France, we are much more
fortunate. There are many books and maps to help us understand the
seigneuries our ancestors held and locating the original documents to
further research in Québec is relatively simple.
I hope this helps. You are asking some very good questions and I am
having a hard time trying to remember the details of Catherine Baillon's
ancestry. My head is stuffed now with Anglo-Irish and Scottish names,
dates, and places because I have been helping my wife on her research.
I yearn for the day I can return to my French research and reacquaint
myself with some good and honest French nobles and peasants! Perhaps
one of my colleagues could better answer your questions.
JP
-
Denis Beauregard
Re: de Marle seigneur de Vaugien
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:34:02 -0500, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
The original book of Mirot has no index. But I remember about
a reprint of the book by another author and this later had an index.
I don't remember if it was the same text photocopied and only indexed
or a new text typed again, nor do I remember the 2nd author.
I check one library catalogue and it seems to be (Univ. Mtl):
1. Nouveaux hommages rendus à la Chambre de France :
Chambre des comptes de Paris, Série P, XVIIe-XVIIIe siècles :
inventaire analytique / par Jean-Pierre Babelon, Albert Mirot et
Jeanne Vielliard.
Archives nationales (France).
Archives nationales : Diffusé par La Documentation française, Paris :
1988-1989.
2. Hommages rendus à la Chambre de France : Chambre des
comptes de Paris, série P, XIVe-XVIe siècles : inventaire analytique /
Archives nationales.
Archives nationales (France).
Les Archives : Diffusé par la Documentation française, Paris :
1982-1985.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
I do not recall if these seigneuries are mentioned in it, but you might
want to consult Léon Mirot's _Inventaire analytique des hommages rendus
à la Chambre de France_. There were at least two volumes of this work
published in 1932 and 1936. Mirot provides information about
seigneuries in the region of Paris. Since Villiers-St-Paul [near Creil,
Ile-de-France (Oise)], Vaugien [near Paris, Ile-de-France (Yvelines)]
and La Falaise [Ile-de-France (Yvelines)] are all near Paris, they might
be mentioned in Mirot's book. I honestly can not recall if we checked
for information about these lands in Mirot's book. We used it for other
purposes.
The original book of Mirot has no index. But I remember about
a reprint of the book by another author and this later had an index.
I don't remember if it was the same text photocopied and only indexed
or a new text typed again, nor do I remember the 2nd author.
I check one library catalogue and it seems to be (Univ. Mtl):
1. Nouveaux hommages rendus à la Chambre de France :
Chambre des comptes de Paris, Série P, XVIIe-XVIIIe siècles :
inventaire analytique / par Jean-Pierre Babelon, Albert Mirot et
Jeanne Vielliard.
Archives nationales (France).
Archives nationales : Diffusé par La Documentation française, Paris :
1988-1989.
2. Hommages rendus à la Chambre de France : Chambre des
comptes de Paris, série P, XIVe-XVIe siècles : inventaire analytique /
Archives nationales.
Archives nationales (France).
Les Archives : Diffusé par la Documentation française, Paris :
1982-1985.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com