ES II Tafel 53
Fortun Garces, King of Pamplona (is that the beginning of Navarre?)
about 845 he married Aurea
In a French source I found a bit more about Aurea
Auria ibn Lopo ibn Musa, was daughter of Lopo ibn Musa ibn Musa, Governor of Saragosa and Ayab Al Bulatiya
Does anyone know how reliable this is?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Spanish Muslim ancestors?
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
Leo van de Pas wrote:
It is a wild guess, nothing more. The argument goes that Lubb
ibn Musa had a sister named Aurea (Oria), and Fortun named a son
Lope. However, we know for sure the name of just two females in
Fortun's pedigree - those of his aunt Ausona and his sister
Onneca, so we cannot tell whether his family too used the name
Aurea. This is not just an argument from absence - where did
Musa get the name Aurea used for his daughter (who married a
"prince Garcia" - why couldn't they be the parents -in-law of
Fortun)? It is a latin name and is not known to have appeared
previously in the Banu Qasi. Could it have come from the family
of his wife, the child's presumed mother, none other than
Fortun's aunt Ausona? Or from that of Musa's mother, Fortun's
great-grandmother? Or could it have just been a part of the
Basque name-pool, obscure to us because only four spanish Basque
women prior to this Oria, wife of Fortun, are named in any record
I have found (the above mentioned Ausona, wife of Musa; Onneca,
wife of Aznar Galindez II; and Matrona, wife of Garcia el Malo,
and Oria, wife of 'prince Garcia' - perhaps also Urraca, as there
is a document reporting the foundation of a monastery naming
founders "King Garcia and Queen Urraca", which is undated but has
been taken to refer to Garcia Iniguez). Basically, when every
name is new, you can't assume that the second appearance need
have derived from the first through a direct genealogical
connection. These arguments likewise apply to the name Lope,
except that we know of several other men of this name from about
this time, for example, the father of Dadildis (another unique
name) and Raymond of Pallars and Ribagorza - could he have had a
daughter or sister Aurea - we would never know if his family used
the name?
As to naming her mother, even if she were daughter of Lubb, this
is ridiculous - as there is no source that names any daughters of
Lubb, there could not be a source that names the mother of such a
daughter, and as the Koran permits marriage to multiple wives,
and the Spanish muslims tended not to distinguish between
legitimate and illegitimate children (sources rarely bother to
report the mother unless it is politically significant, such as
the half-sibling relationship between Inigo Arista and Musa ibn
Musa ibn Qasi, or that between Toda, Queen/Regent of Navarre and
Muhammed, Emir of Cordoba), one cannot simply assume that a wife
of the father is necessarily the child's mother.
I can think of just one christian male who can be documented as
having married a muslim female and had children who remained in a
christian context during this period - Fruela II of Leon, and
following his death and that of his son King Alfonso Fruelaz,
they were deprived of all standing (and in some cases of all
seeing) and disappear from history without known descendants
(claimed descents are all erroneous, as is the published descent
from his brother Ramiro by Urraca, apparently his widow).
taf
ES II Tafel 53
Fortun Garces, King of Pamplona (is that the beginning of Navarre?)
about 845 he married Aurea
In a French source I found a bit more about Aurea
Auria ibn Lopo ibn Musa, was daughter of Lopo ibn Musa ibn Musa, Governor of Saragosa and Ayab Al Bulatiya
Does anyone know how reliable this is?
It is a wild guess, nothing more. The argument goes that Lubb
ibn Musa had a sister named Aurea (Oria), and Fortun named a son
Lope. However, we know for sure the name of just two females in
Fortun's pedigree - those of his aunt Ausona and his sister
Onneca, so we cannot tell whether his family too used the name
Aurea. This is not just an argument from absence - where did
Musa get the name Aurea used for his daughter (who married a
"prince Garcia" - why couldn't they be the parents -in-law of
Fortun)? It is a latin name and is not known to have appeared
previously in the Banu Qasi. Could it have come from the family
of his wife, the child's presumed mother, none other than
Fortun's aunt Ausona? Or from that of Musa's mother, Fortun's
great-grandmother? Or could it have just been a part of the
Basque name-pool, obscure to us because only four spanish Basque
women prior to this Oria, wife of Fortun, are named in any record
I have found (the above mentioned Ausona, wife of Musa; Onneca,
wife of Aznar Galindez II; and Matrona, wife of Garcia el Malo,
and Oria, wife of 'prince Garcia' - perhaps also Urraca, as there
is a document reporting the foundation of a monastery naming
founders "King Garcia and Queen Urraca", which is undated but has
been taken to refer to Garcia Iniguez). Basically, when every
name is new, you can't assume that the second appearance need
have derived from the first through a direct genealogical
connection. These arguments likewise apply to the name Lope,
except that we know of several other men of this name from about
this time, for example, the father of Dadildis (another unique
name) and Raymond of Pallars and Ribagorza - could he have had a
daughter or sister Aurea - we would never know if his family used
the name?
As to naming her mother, even if she were daughter of Lubb, this
is ridiculous - as there is no source that names any daughters of
Lubb, there could not be a source that names the mother of such a
daughter, and as the Koran permits marriage to multiple wives,
and the Spanish muslims tended not to distinguish between
legitimate and illegitimate children (sources rarely bother to
report the mother unless it is politically significant, such as
the half-sibling relationship between Inigo Arista and Musa ibn
Musa ibn Qasi, or that between Toda, Queen/Regent of Navarre and
Muhammed, Emir of Cordoba), one cannot simply assume that a wife
of the father is necessarily the child's mother.
I can think of just one christian male who can be documented as
having married a muslim female and had children who remained in a
christian context during this period - Fruela II of Leon, and
following his death and that of his son King Alfonso Fruelaz,
they were deprived of all standing (and in some cases of all
seeing) and disappear from history without known descendants
(claimed descents are all erroneous, as is the published descent
from his brother Ramiro by Urraca, apparently his widow).
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
Several things spring to mind as conjectures...might "Aurea" be a
transcription error or phonetic attempt at "Urraca"? "Dadildis" sounds
Gothic or Frankish - might an early transcriber be a speaker of some
such Germanic language if the lady herself was not a Goth or a Frank?
It would seem that these questions would arise frequently because of
the cultural and linguistic leanings of the transcribers.
transcription error or phonetic attempt at "Urraca"? "Dadildis" sounds
Gothic or Frankish - might an early transcriber be a speaker of some
such Germanic language if the lady herself was not a Goth or a Frank?
It would seem that these questions would arise frequently because of
the cultural and linguistic leanings of the transcribers.
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
Unlikely - it appears in two distinct sources in two different
languages, the anonymous _Codice de Roda_ (in one mss. as "Oria"
and "Auria", in the other, "Auream" [x2]; the name "Urraca"
appears on the next page so a distinct name is intended), and ibn
Hazm's _Jamharat ansab al-Arab_ ("wawryah"). It has a legitimate
latinate origin, the word for "gold".
Her father Lope was probably of a francofied (or at least
francophile) Gascon family, but could have been Frank or
Gallo-Roman (the name, of course, is from the latin for "wolf"),
while her mother has been speculated to be a kinswoman of Raymond
of Toulouse. Her brother was Raymond/Regimundis and her nephew
Bernard, so a Frankish name would not be out of place whether
this specific derivation is correct or not, so we need not
speculate about a substitution by the transcriber.
taf
Several things spring to mind as conjectures...might "Aurea" be a
transcription error or phonetic attempt at "Urraca"?
Unlikely - it appears in two distinct sources in two different
languages, the anonymous _Codice de Roda_ (in one mss. as "Oria"
and "Auria", in the other, "Auream" [x2]; the name "Urraca"
appears on the next page so a distinct name is intended), and ibn
Hazm's _Jamharat ansab al-Arab_ ("wawryah"). It has a legitimate
latinate origin, the word for "gold".
"Dadildis" sounds
Gothic or Frankish - might an early transcriber be a speaker of some
such Germanic language if the lady herself was not a Goth or a Frank?
Her father Lope was probably of a francofied (or at least
francophile) Gascon family, but could have been Frank or
Gallo-Roman (the name, of course, is from the latin for "wolf"),
while her mother has been speculated to be a kinswoman of Raymond
of Toulouse. Her brother was Raymond/Regimundis and her nephew
Bernard, so a Frankish name would not be out of place whether
this specific derivation is correct or not, so we need not
speculate about a substitution by the transcriber.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
Regarding Fruela II de Leon, is his wife known? I have seen a few on-line
genealogies that show one wife as Nunilo Jimena Sanchez de Pamplona, daughter
of Sancho I Garces de Navarra and Toda Aznazrez de Larron; and another wife
as Urraca Banu-Qasi, daughter of Abdallah
ibn Muhammed Wali. Are either of them accurate? The date estimate on Fr
uela II was born c. 875 in Asturias, Spain and died c Jul 925 also in Asturias.
No children were listed for Fruela and Urraca, but there were some for
Fruela and Nunilo Jimena: Ordono, Alfosno, and Ramiro. None were listed with
descendants, only Ramiro listed with a wife named Urraca.
I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find the link offhand and I know how most of
the genealogies on the inter-net are junk. Does this seem correct?
Denise D'Antona
In a message dated 3/26/2005 1:15:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
I can think of just one christian male who can be documented as
having married a muslim female and had children who remained in a
christian context during this period - Fruela II of Leon, and
following his death and that of his son King Alfonso Fruelaz,
they were deprived of all standing (and in some cases of all
seeing) and disappear from history without known descendants
(claimed descents are all erroneous, as is the published descent
from his brother Ramiro by Urraca, apparently his widow).
taf
genealogies that show one wife as Nunilo Jimena Sanchez de Pamplona, daughter
of Sancho I Garces de Navarra and Toda Aznazrez de Larron; and another wife
as Urraca Banu-Qasi, daughter of Abdallah
ibn Muhammed Wali. Are either of them accurate? The date estimate on Fr
uela II was born c. 875 in Asturias, Spain and died c Jul 925 also in Asturias.
No children were listed for Fruela and Urraca, but there were some for
Fruela and Nunilo Jimena: Ordono, Alfosno, and Ramiro. None were listed with
descendants, only Ramiro listed with a wife named Urraca.
I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find the link offhand and I know how most of
the genealogies on the inter-net are junk. Does this seem correct?
Denise D'Antona
In a message dated 3/26/2005 1:15:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
I can think of just one christian male who can be documented as
having married a muslim female and had children who remained in a
christian context during this period - Fruela II of Leon, and
following his death and that of his son King Alfonso Fruelaz,
they were deprived of all standing (and in some cases of all
seeing) and disappear from history without known descendants
(claimed descents are all erroneous, as is the published descent
from his brother Ramiro by Urraca, apparently his widow).
taf
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
As far as I can tell Fruela's descent vanished un a
couple of generations.
fa
--- TARA1197@aol.com wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
couple of generations.
fa
--- TARA1197@aol.com wrote:
Regarding Fruela II de Leon, is his wife known? I
have seen a few on-line
genealogies that show one wife as Nunilo Jimena
Sanchez de Pamplona, daughter
of Sancho I Garces de Navarra and Toda Aznazrez de
Larron; and another wife
as Urraca Banu-Qasi, daughter of Abdallah
ibn Muhammed Wali. Are either of them accurate?
The date estimate on Fr
uela II was born c. 875 in Asturias, Spain and died
c Jul 925 also in Asturias.
No children were listed for Fruela and Urraca, but
there were some for
Fruela and Nunilo Jimena: Ordono, Alfosno, and
Ramiro. None were listed with
descendants, only Ramiro listed with a wife named
Urraca.
I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find the link offhand
and I know how most of
the genealogies on the inter-net are junk. Does
this seem correct?
Denise D'Antona
In a message dated 3/26/2005 1:15:28 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
I can think of just one christian male who can be
documented as
having married a muslim female and had children who
remained in a
christian context during this period - Fruela II of
Leon, and
following his death and that of his son King
Alfonso Fruelaz,
they were deprived of all standing (and in some
cases of all
seeing) and disappear from history without known
descendants
(claimed descents are all erroneous, as is the
published descent
from his brother Ramiro by Urraca, apparently his
widow).
taf
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Spanish Muslim ancestors?
TARA1197@aol.com wrote:
There is a funeral marker for Nunilo, wife of Fruela. However, the
ancestry given here (the traditional ancestry given the woman) is almost
certainly erroneous. The _Codice de Roda_, an anonymous genealogy
apparently written in celebration of the marriage of Count Garcia
Fernandez of Castile, grandson of Sancho Garces and Toda, gives a
detailed listing of the children of Sancho and Toda, their marriages,
and children, (even one illegitimate daughter is so detailed) but fails
to mention such a daughter married to Fruela. (Chronologically, it is
also a hard sell, for while one of Sancha and Toda's daughters married
Fruela's brother Ordono, it was late in his life as a third wife, while
two sisters married Ordono's two younger sons. It is quite unlikely,
chronologically, that Fruela's first wife would have been a sibling of
these.)
As to Urraca, _Yamharat al-Ansab_, a genealogical collection by ibn Hazm
thought to be largely based on authentic Iberian-Arab historical
knowledge, gives the marriage of Urraca daughter of Abd'Allah ibn
Muhammad to Fruela ibn Alfonso. King Fruela appears in a donation
document of his brother Ordono, along with wife Urraca, so this is
absolutely solid.
_Yamharat al-Ansab_ indicates that Ordono and Ramiro were children of
Urraca. By implication, then, Alfonso, known to have been the eldest of
the three, was son of the first wife, Nunilo.
This confuses uncle and nephew. It was the rebel anti-King Ramiro,
brother of Ordono II and Fruela II who appears with wife Urraca. This
occurs only after the death of Fruela, and it has been reasonably
speculated that he married his brother's widow. Fruela's son Ramiro
disappears after his brother Alfonso Fruelaz was deposed, with hints in
some sources that he was blinded, and nothing further is known of
Fruela's sons. This does not mean that they had none - just that they
disappear into obscurity. Later pedigrees trace the Infante Ordono
Ramirez, son-in-law of Vermudo II, from this Ramiro, but it is
chronologically impossible, and he was instead probably son of King
Ramiro III.
This was a fractious time in the history of Leon, with six kings in just
about as many years. Following the death of Ordono II in 924, his
younger brother Fruela succeeded, but died himself in 925. His son
Alfonso Fruelaz followed, but was deposed shortly thereafter by Sancho
Ordonez, in turn deposed by his brother Alfonso IV, himself then deposed
by brother Ramiro II, all by 932. Likewise, during this time Ramiro,
brother of Fruela was fighting unsuccessfully for his right to rule as
senior agnatic member of the family (as had Fruela) over the claims of
his nephews (the latter two of which were helped in their efforts to
suppress him by their father-in-law Sancho Garces). Early historians
missed the complexity of this, thinking that Fruela's successor (named
simply King Alfonso in all but one source) was the same man as Alfonso
IV Ordonez, that he ruled continually from that time and thus Sancho
only ruled in Galicia., the result being that both Kings, Alfonso
Fruelaz and Sancho Ordonez, were left out of the standardized numbering
of kings.
taf
Regarding Fruela II de Leon, is his wife known? I have seen a few on-line
genealogies that show one wife as Nunilo Jimena Sanchez de Pamplona, daughter
of Sancho I Garces de Navarra and Toda Aznazrez de Larron; and another wife
as Urraca Banu-Qasi, daughter of Abdallah
ibn Muhammed Wali. Are either of them accurate?
There is a funeral marker for Nunilo, wife of Fruela. However, the
ancestry given here (the traditional ancestry given the woman) is almost
certainly erroneous. The _Codice de Roda_, an anonymous genealogy
apparently written in celebration of the marriage of Count Garcia
Fernandez of Castile, grandson of Sancho Garces and Toda, gives a
detailed listing of the children of Sancho and Toda, their marriages,
and children, (even one illegitimate daughter is so detailed) but fails
to mention such a daughter married to Fruela. (Chronologically, it is
also a hard sell, for while one of Sancha and Toda's daughters married
Fruela's brother Ordono, it was late in his life as a third wife, while
two sisters married Ordono's two younger sons. It is quite unlikely,
chronologically, that Fruela's first wife would have been a sibling of
these.)
As to Urraca, _Yamharat al-Ansab_, a genealogical collection by ibn Hazm
thought to be largely based on authentic Iberian-Arab historical
knowledge, gives the marriage of Urraca daughter of Abd'Allah ibn
Muhammad to Fruela ibn Alfonso. King Fruela appears in a donation
document of his brother Ordono, along with wife Urraca, so this is
absolutely solid.
The date estimate on Fr
uela II was born c. 875 in Asturias, Spain and died c Jul 925 also in Asturias.
No children were listed for Fruela and Urraca, but there were some for
Fruela and Nunilo Jimena: Ordono, Alfosno, and Ramiro.
_Yamharat al-Ansab_ indicates that Ordono and Ramiro were children of
Urraca. By implication, then, Alfonso, known to have been the eldest of
the three, was son of the first wife, Nunilo.
None were listed with
descendants, only Ramiro listed with a wife named Urraca.
This confuses uncle and nephew. It was the rebel anti-King Ramiro,
brother of Ordono II and Fruela II who appears with wife Urraca. This
occurs only after the death of Fruela, and it has been reasonably
speculated that he married his brother's widow. Fruela's son Ramiro
disappears after his brother Alfonso Fruelaz was deposed, with hints in
some sources that he was blinded, and nothing further is known of
Fruela's sons. This does not mean that they had none - just that they
disappear into obscurity. Later pedigrees trace the Infante Ordono
Ramirez, son-in-law of Vermudo II, from this Ramiro, but it is
chronologically impossible, and he was instead probably son of King
Ramiro III.
This was a fractious time in the history of Leon, with six kings in just
about as many years. Following the death of Ordono II in 924, his
younger brother Fruela succeeded, but died himself in 925. His son
Alfonso Fruelaz followed, but was deposed shortly thereafter by Sancho
Ordonez, in turn deposed by his brother Alfonso IV, himself then deposed
by brother Ramiro II, all by 932. Likewise, during this time Ramiro,
brother of Fruela was fighting unsuccessfully for his right to rule as
senior agnatic member of the family (as had Fruela) over the claims of
his nephews (the latter two of which were helped in their efforts to
suppress him by their father-in-law Sancho Garces). Early historians
missed the complexity of this, thinking that Fruela's successor (named
simply King Alfonso in all but one source) was the same man as Alfonso
IV Ordonez, that he ruled continually from that time and thus Sancho
only ruled in Galicia., the result being that both Kings, Alfonso
Fruelaz and Sancho Ordonez, were left out of the standardized numbering
of kings.
taf