Merovingians in Ireland?

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siabair ~^~

Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av siabair ~^~ » 24 mar 2005 23:09:09

In an article dealing with the Irish exile of Dagobert II (Church and
politics in the seventh century: The Irish exile of King Dagobert II by
Jean-Michel Picard in Ireland and Northern France AD 600-850, ed
Jean-Michel Picard, Four Courts Press) the author implies that Dagobert II
does not figure in Irish sources but I wonder if anyone has looked for a
line from Dagobert II into the Irish genealogies? I know that I have seen a
Merovingian or Carolingian sounding name in the genealogies but
unfortunately I cannot remember what it was or where I saw it.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

Janet Crawford

Fwd: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av Janet Crawford » 24 mar 2005 23:51:01

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Janet Crawford <reojan@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:46:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Merovingians in Ireland?
To: siabair ~^~ <siabair@h=tmail.c=m>


Siabair,
Perhaps:
Dogmael of Wales (AC)
(also known as Docmael, Dogfael, Dogmeel, Dogwel, Toel)
Early 6th century. A Welsh monk of the house of Cunedda, Dogmael
founded several cells in Pembrokeshire, Brittany, and Anglesey. Under
the name Toel, he is titular saint of a church in Tréquier in
Brittany, and is probably identical to Dogmeel who has a considerable
cultus in Brittany, where he is invoked to help children to learn to
walk (Benedictines, Farmer, Husenbeth).

Janet

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:09:09 -0000, siabair ~^~ <siabair@h=tmail.c=m> wrote:
In an article dealing with the Irish exile of Dagobert II (Church and
politics in the seventh century: The Irish exile of King Dagobert II by
Jean-Michel Picard in Ireland and Northern France AD 600-850, ed
Jean-Michel Picard, Four Courts Press) the author implies that Dagobert II
does not figure in Irish sources but I wonder if anyone has looked for a
line from Dagobert II into the Irish genealogies? I know that I have seen a
Merovingian or Carolingian sounding name in the genealogies but
unfortunately I cannot remember what it was or where I saw it.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'


Gjest

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 mar 2005 01:51:02

Perhaps the author is guardedly advancing a theory that the person alledgedly brought from Ireland to France was not in fact a royal descendent at all but merely elevated to the throne for political purposes.
Does the author cite many contemporary sources ? Of course if you are trying to hide a royal descendent from his enemies you may be advised not to mention his existence. But being so far away makes it more unlikely that they would try to come assassinate him.
Is this a recent article?
Thanks
Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: siabair ~^~ <siabair@h=tmail.c=m>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:09:09 -0000
Subject: Merovingians in Ireland?


In an article dealing with the Irish exile of Dagobert II (Church and
politics in the seventh century: The Irish exile of King Dagobert II by
Jean-Michel Picard in Ireland and Northern France AD 600-850, ed
Jean-Michel Picard, Four Courts Press) the author implies that Dagobert II
does not figure in Irish sources but I wonder if anyone has looked for a
line from Dagobert II into the Irish genealogies? I know that I have seen a
Merovingian or Carolingian sounding name in the genealogies but
unfortunately I cannot remember what it was or where I saw it.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

siabair ~^~

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av siabair ~^~ » 25 mar 2005 18:00:19

wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
Perhaps the author is guardedly advancing a theory that the
person alledgedly brought from Ireland to France was not in fact
a royal descendent at all but merely elevated to the throne for
political purposes. Does the author cite many contemporary sources ?
Of course if you are trying to hide a royal descendent from his
enemies you may be advised not to mention his existence. But being
so far away makes it more unlikely that they would try to come
assassinate him. Is this a recent article?

The article was published in 1991. The main source for the episode is given
as chapter 43 of the Liber Historiae Francorum completed in 727 by a
Neustrian author. The author is advancing a theory that Irish churchmen
were involved in the return of Dagobert via England to Francia as a
refinement to the reassessment of the case given in The Rise of the
Carolingians and the Liber Historiae Francorum, R A Gerberding , Oxford
1987 (which I haven't seen).

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

siabair ~^~

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av siabair ~^~ » 25 mar 2005 18:21:02

Janet Crawford wrote:
Perhaps:
Dogmael of Wales (AC)
(also known as Docmael, Dogfael, Dogmeel, Dogwel, Toel)
Early 6th century. A Welsh monk of the house of Cunedda...

Thanks, but the name I was thinking of appears in the genealogy of one of
the early Irish dynasties.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

Janet Crawford

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av Janet Crawford » 25 mar 2005 19:00:02

Can't find a trace of it there. That was the closest one. There is a
theory that Cunneda was Irish or Irish connected.

Janet


On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:21:02 -0000, siabair ~^~ <siabair@h=tmail.c=m> wrote:
Janet Crawford wrote:
Perhaps:
Dogmael of Wales (AC)
(also known as Docmael, Dogfael, Dogmeel, Dogwel, Toel)
Early 6th century. A Welsh monk of the house of Cunedda...

Thanks, but the name I was thinking of appears in the genealogy of one of
the early Irish dynasties.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'


Stewart Baldwin

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 25 mar 2005 23:42:19

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:09:09 -0000, "siabair ~^~"
<siabair@h=tmail.c=m> wrote:

... I know that I have seen a
Merovingian or Carolingian sounding name in the genealogies but
unfortunately I cannot remember what it was or where I saw it.

I can't think of a Merovingian name, but the name Charles (in the
Irish form of Carrlus) appears on a few occasions in pre-Norman
Ireland. However, since king Olaf I of Dublin (9th century) had a son
named Carrlus, a Norse origin seems more likely than a Frankish one
for the early appearances of this name in Ireland.

Stewart Baldwin

siabair ~^~

Re: Merovingians in Ireland?

Legg inn av siabair ~^~ » 27 mar 2005 14:51:16

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
I can't think of a Merovingian name, but the name Charles (in the
Irish form of Carrlus) appears on a few occasions in pre-Norman
Ireland. However, since king Olaf I of Dublin (9th century) had a son
named Carrlus, a Norse origin seems more likely than a Frankish one
for the early appearances of this name in Ireland.

Thanks. I expect I will come across the name again sometime, then we will
have something to talk about.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

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