Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

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Michael Andrews-Reading

Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Michael Andrews-Reading » 21 mar 2005 22:52:33

According to manuscript notes in the Society of Genealogists'
Cumberland shelves, Nicolson & Burns (vol ii of their History of
Westmorland) have a pedigree of the Hudleston family, sometime of
Millom Castle. This shows two sons for the Sir John Hudleston who
married Joan de Boyvill, heiress of Millom. The elder is said to be
John ("unmarried") and the younger is Sir Richard, married to Alice
Troughton. I have not yet had the opportunity to check vol ii to see
whether this is an accurate transcription.

Elsewhere, including what appears to be a Hudleston family website
from the UK (http://www.huddleston.bravepages.com) which is not referenced,
this generation is expanded into two, by interposing John, son of Sir
John & Joan, as the father of Sir Richard. This second John is given
as a wife Sibyl, "daughter of Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston".

From a quick look, I can see that Lawrence de Cornwall appears to be a
real person (e.g. Mannix's Directory of Furness and Cartmel, 1882 as
recorded on the Genuki website, sub 'Ulverston'), and chronologically
he would appear to have lived during the middle of the 14th century.

I also see some (but by no means many) online sources state that
Richard, King of the Germans and Earl of Cornwall (son of King John)
had amongst his illegitimate offspring a son, Lawrence, who took like
his brothers the surname "de Cornwall". Again, I have not yet had the
opportunity to look into this - the only source I have at hand, Weir's
'Britain's Royal Families', a bit of a grab-bag of information, does
not mention a Lawrence among Richard of Cornwall's bastards, and she
usually errs on the side of including everything she can.

Does anyone know which - if either - of the variant Hudleston
pedigrees is likely to be correct, and whether anything is known about
Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston?

Chris Dickinson

Re: Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 21 mar 2005 23:31:02

Michael Andrews-Reading wrote:

According to manuscript notes in the Society of Genealogists'
Cumberland shelves, Nicolson & Burns (vol ii of their History of
Westmorland) have a pedigree of the Hudleston family, sometime of
Millom Castle. This shows two sons for the Sir John Hudleston who
married Joan de Boyvill, heiress of Millom. The elder is said to be
John ("unmarried") and the younger is Sir Richard, married to Alice
Troughton. I have not yet had the opportunity to check vol ii to see
whether this is an accurate transcription.

Elsewhere, including what appears to be a Hudleston family website
from the UK (http://www.huddleston.bravepages.com) which is not referenced,
this generation is expanded into two, by interposing John, son of Sir
John & Joan, as the father of Sir Richard. This second John is given
as a wife Sibyl, "daughter of Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston".

From a quick look, I can see that Lawrence de Cornwall appears to be a
real person (e.g. Mannix's Directory of Furness and Cartmel, 1882 as
recorded on the Genuki website, sub 'Ulverston'), and chronologically
he would appear to have lived during the middle of the 14th century.

I also see some (but by no means many) online sources state that
Richard, King of the Germans and Earl of Cornwall (son of King John)
had amongst his illegitimate offspring a son, Lawrence, who took like
his brothers the surname "de Cornwall". Again, I have not yet had the
opportunity to look into this - the only source I have at hand, Weir's
'Britain's Royal Families', a bit of a grab-bag of information, does
not mention a Lawrence among Richard of Cornwall's bastards, and she
usually errs on the side of including everything she can.

Does anyone know which - if either - of the variant Hudleston
pedigrees is likely to be correct, and whether anything is known about
Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston?

Presumably, as you were looking at the SOG's Cumberland shelves, you checked
out Roy Hudleston's 'Cumberland Families & Heraldry' - which has stuff on
the Hudlestons and Cornwall. There are also volumes on the Cumberland
Visitations there.

A fairly thorough search of the CWAAS Transactions might help - though you
would need to divide your time for OS and NS between the SOG and TNA
Library.

I've suggested all these before on other threads - as also maybe writing to
Roy Hudleston's old uni, Durham, where his research papers are stored.

Chris

Mark B

Re: Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Mark B » 22 mar 2005 00:11:02

I can confirm that Nicolson and Burn do provide the
Hudleston of Millum descent you describe, i.e., Sir
John to his son John to his brother sir Richard. I
don’t know if this is correct, but I can complicate
matters for you. Thomas Denton in his 1687-88 A
Perambulation of Cumberland (published by the Surtees
Society in 2003) says, “After the death of which Sir
John Hudleston [husband of Johan Boyvill], succeeded
John his son, who had issue Radulf, father of Richard,
whose son John was father to Sir John, and from him it
hath continued in the heirs male unto this day.”

In a footnote, the editor of the Denton work points us
to C.R. Huddleston, ‘Millom Families, part ii’,CW2
[Transactions of the CWAAS, new series] 93 (1993), pp.
87-98. Unfortunately, I don’t have immediate access to
this volume of the Transactions.

Another index I consulted suggests H.S. Cowper,
‘Millom Castle and the Hudlestons’, CWAAS
Transactions, n.s. 24, (1924), pp. 181-234. A note
says that this article includes pedigrees, 13th-18th
c.

I hope this helps.

Mark Briscoe

--- Michael Andrews-Reading <mjcar@btinternet.com>
wrote:
According to manuscript notes in the Society of
Genealogists'
Cumberland shelves, Nicolson & Burns (vol ii of
their History of
Westmorland) have a pedigree of the Hudleston
family, sometime of
Millom Castle. This shows two sons for the Sir John
Hudleston who
married Joan de Boyvill, heiress of Millom. The
elder is said to be
John ("unmarried") and the younger is Sir Richard,
married to Alice
Troughton. I have not yet had the opportunity to
check vol ii to see
whether this is an accurate transcription.

Elsewhere, including what appears to be a Hudleston
family website
from the UK (http://www.huddleston.bravepages.com) which is
not referenced,
this generation is expanded into two, by interposing
John, son of Sir
John & Joan, as the father of Sir Richard. This
second John is given
as a wife Sibyl, "daughter of Lawrence de Cornwall
of Ulverston".

From a quick look, I can see that Lawrence de
Cornwall appears to be a
real person (e.g. Mannix's Directory of Furness and
Cartmel, 1882 as
recorded on the Genuki website, sub 'Ulverston'),
and chronologically
he would appear to have lived during the middle of
the 14th century.

I also see some (but by no means many) online
sources state that
Richard, King of the Germans and Earl of Cornwall
(son of King John)
had amongst his illegitimate offspring a son,
Lawrence, who took like
his brothers the surname "de Cornwall". Again, I
have not yet had the
opportunity to look into this - the only source I
have at hand, Weir's
'Britain's Royal Families', a bit of a grab-bag of
information, does
not mention a Lawrence among Richard of Cornwall's
bastards, and she
usually errs on the side of including everything she
can.

Does anyone know which - if either - of the variant
Hudleston
pedigrees is likely to be correct, and whether
anything is known about
Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston?





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Michael Andrews-Reading

Re: Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Michael Andrews-Reading » 22 mar 2005 08:12:24

mygenlists@yahoo.com (Mark B) wrote in message news:<20050321230216.98314.qmail@web52702.mail.yahoo.com>...
I can confirm that Nicolson and Burn do provide the
Hudleston of Millum descent you describe, i.e., Sir
John to his son John to his brother sir Richard. I
don?t know if this is correct, but I can complicate
matters for you. Thomas Denton in his 1687-88 A
Perambulation of Cumberland (published by the Surtees
Society in 2003) says, ?After the death of which Sir
John Hudleston [husband of Johan Boyvill], succeeded
John his son, who had issue Radulf, father of Richard,
whose son John was father to Sir John, and from him it
hath continued in the heirs male unto this day.?

In a footnote, the editor of the Denton work points us
to C.R. Huddleston, ?Millom Families, part ii?,CW2
[Transactions of the CWAAS, new series] 93 (1993), pp.
87-98. Unfortunately, I don?t have immediate access to
this volume of the Transactions.

Another index I consulted suggests H.S. Cowper,
?Millom Castle and the Hudlestons?, CWAAS
Transactions, n.s. 24, (1924), pp. 181-234. A note
says that this article includes pedigrees, 13th-18th
c.

I hope this helps.

Mark Briscoe


My thanks for these responses. As is always the way, I only stumbled
across the manuscript notes at the SoG whilst looking for something
else about five minutes before closing time, so I didn't have the
opportunity to look at the rest of the material on the Cumberland
shelves; I shall do so when next I manage to get there.

Michael Andrews-Reading

Re: Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Michael Andrews-Reading » 24 mar 2005 23:26:49

"Chris Dickinson" <chris@dickinson.uk.net> wrote in message news:<d1nhbn$c22$1@hercules.btinternet.com>...
Presumably, as you were looking at the SOG's Cumberland shelves, you checked
out Roy Hudleston's 'Cumberland Families & Heraldry' - which has stuff on
the Hudlestons and Cornwall. There are also volumes on the Cumberland
Visitations there.

A fairly thorough search of the CWAAS Transactions might help - though you
would need to divide your time for OS and NS between the SOG and TNA
Library.

I've suggested all these before on other threads - as also maybe writing to
Roy Hudleston's old uni, Durham, where his research papers are stored.

Chris

Managed to get back to the SoG tonight. Although they only hold the
CWAAS New Series, they have the index to the Old. No mentions of de
Cornwall in either. I have ordered a copy of Cumberland Families &
Heraldry, but a quick look at the SoG copy did not reveal any mention
of de Cornwall, and in fact, the Hudleston entry was no better than
the early entries from Burker's Commoners, from which it appeared to
have been cribbed. The Cumberland Visitations drew a blank too, as
does the entry for Hudleston in the Cambs Visitation. The new DNB
mentions the possibility of Richard, Earl of Cornwall leaving several
illegitimate children, but only names Richard...

Michael Andrews-Reading

Re: Lawrence de Cornwall (from Hudleston pedigrees)

Legg inn av Michael Andrews-Reading » 09 apr 2005 16:58:59

mjcar@btinternet.com (Michael Andrews-Reading) wrote in message news:<d3c078ef.0503211352.3a376ada@posting.google.com>...
According to manuscript notes in the Society of Genealogists'
Cumberland shelves, Nicolson & Burns (vol ii of their History of
Westmorland) have a pedigree of the Hudleston family, sometime of
Millom Castle. This shows two sons for the Sir John Hudleston who
married Joan de Boyvill, heiress of Millom. The elder is said to be
John ("unmarried") and the younger is Sir Richard, married to Alice
Troughton. I have not yet had the opportunity to check vol ii to see
whether this is an accurate transcription.

Elsewhere, including what appears to be a Hudleston family website
from the UK (http://www.huddleston.bravepages.com) which is not referenced,
this generation is expanded into two, by interposing John, son of Sir
John & Joan, as the father of Sir Richard. This second John is given
as a wife Sibyl, "daughter of Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston".

From a quick look, I can see that Lawrence de Cornwall appears to be a
real person (e.g. Mannix's Directory of Furness and Cartmel, 1882 as
recorded on the Genuki website, sub 'Ulverston'), and chronologically
he would appear to have lived during the middle of the 14th century.

I also see some (but by no means many) online sources state that
Richard, King of the Germans and Earl of Cornwall (son of King John)
had amongst his illegitimate offspring a son, Lawrence, who took like
his brothers the surname "de Cornwall". Again, I have not yet had the
opportunity to look into this - the only source I have at hand, Weir's
'Britain's Royal Families', a bit of a grab-bag of information, does
not mention a Lawrence among Richard of Cornwall's bastards, and she
usually errs on the side of including everything she can.

Does anyone know which - if either - of the variant Hudleston
pedigrees is likely to be correct, and whether anything is known about
Lawrence de Cornwall of Ulverston?

Hudleston & Boumphrey's Cumberland Families & Heraldry, p 191 refers
to "Sybel (living 1343) daughter of Lawrence de Cornwall or de Kirkby,
married before 1279 Sir John Hudleston, of Millom (died before
1306)...argent, two bars gules, on a canton of the last a cross moline
or." Sir John is said (p 170) to be ancestor of the Hudlestons of
Millom.

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