Fw: Saxony - Billung question

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Saxony - Billung question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 21 mar 2005 09:00:02

Dear Peter,
Do you think the grounds for her aging to 107 are insecure? The sources I
have seen accept it. At the moment in my data base I have Liudolf as Duke of
Saxony and with parents and grandparents, but I have already removed them in
my own data base and they will disappear from the website not this update
(hopefully only a few days away) but the next one. I am going to have
Liudolf only as a count and no mention of territory.
Many thanks for this.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Saxony - Billung question


""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000a01c52d94$9ae16680$c3b4fea9@email...
ES volume 1, by Prinz von Isenburg and Freytag von Loringhoven, Tafel 3
This page begins with Liudolf, Duke in Saxony born about 806, died 866.
About 836 he marries Oda, daughter of Count Billung I. She is born in
806
and dies in May 913 (107 years old).

ES Schwennicke volume 1.1 Tafel 10
Here they call Liudolf only a count, no year of birth but he dies 11
March
866.
His wife Oda is recorded as a daughter of princeps Billung and Aeda.
Here
she is born 805/806 and died 17 May 913.

Caroli Magni Progenies by Siegfried Rösch, page 95
Here Liudolf is called a Saxony count (not count of or in Saxony) and
Oda
is a daughter of Count Billung.

Does anyone know what the proper identification is for Liudolf? Was he a
Duke or only a Count and of what or in what? As intriguing is the
father
of Oda. Was he a prince or a Count and again of what?

Titles were not strictly regulated at the time of Liudolf - he is called
"count" just as were other men who also used the title "duke" on
occasions.
In his case, for instance, he was named as "Liudolfus comes" in Annales
Xantenses relating his death in 866, while he had earlier been described
as
"dux Saconiae".

For his wife Oda we have a source that might be considered less than
ideal,
a poem ('Carmen de primordiis coenobii Gandersheimensis') by the nun
Hrotsvita, stating that she was aged 107 at her death in 913, hence the
birthdate calculated as 905/6. Hrotsvita also named her parents as the
ruler
(or prince) Billung and Aeda ("fila Billungi cuiusdam principis almi atque
bonae famae generosae scilicet Aeda').

It has been speculated that Oda was related to the Popponids and
Robertians
(who transmitted the masculine form of her name, Odo or Eudes), and that
she
brought to the family of Liudolf the lordship of Aschaffenburg, the old
political centre of the east Frankish kingdom, but there is no direct
evidence for this.

Peter Stewart




Peter Stewart

Re: Saxony - Billung question

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 mar 2005 09:12:48

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000401c52deb$a2f5a820$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Peter,
Do you think the grounds for her aging to 107 are insecure? The sources I
have seen accept it. At the moment in my data base I have Liudolf as Duke
of
Saxony and with parents and grandparents, but I have already removed them
in
my own data base and they will disappear from the website not this update
(hopefully only a few days away) but the next one. I am going to have
Liudolf only as a count and no mention of territory.

Hrotsvita wrote later in the 10th century, more than half a century after
Oda's death. However, her abbess at Gandersheim was Gerberga, a
great-granddaughter of Oda' son Otto the Illustrious, so presumably she
recorded faithfully enough a family legend about their ancestress. Some
modern authorities accept her statement - notably Winfried Glocker, from
whose work this detail was evidently taken by Detlef Schwennicke for ES I.1
Tafel 10.

It's not by any means impossible that Oda lived to 107, or at least thought
she did. I have a great-uncle approaching this age who has never had a
serious illness in his life, and he in turn had an uncle who lived to 105 in
perfect health until his last days. Just yesterday I saw on TV a woman of
105 - at a well-attended congress of centenarians in Australia - who looked
& sounded no more weighed down by her years than an average 80-year-old. The
human constitution can do weird & wonderful things in exceptional cases.

Peter Stewart

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