Nithard "the Chronicler" to Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Ct. Ar

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
don

Nithard "the Chronicler" to Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Ct. Ar

Legg inn av don » 18 mar 2005 21:27:31

Is Nithard "the Chronicler" St. Riquier b. ca. 795 d. 833 a ancestor of

Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Count of Arcis-sur-Aube b. ca. 930 d. 978,
wife Hersinde/Helissende de Ramerupt/Rameru?
If so, how?
Thanks
Don

Peter Stewart

Re: Nithard "the Chronicler" to Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Ct

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 mar 2005 05:18:47

"don" <donmatson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111177651.758099.146400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Is Nithard "the Chronicler" St. Riquier b. ca. 795 d. 833 a ancestor of

Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Count of Arcis-sur-Aube b. ca. 930 d. 978,
wife Hersinde/Helissende de Ramerupt/Rameru?
If so, how?

Now that Brigitte Gastel Lloyd has made available a list of Charlemagne's
descendants over 20 generations, as advised by Leo, at

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/famous/c ... nedesc.htm

it is worth checking there first. Nithard is in the second generation, as
follows:

II-4 (I-8)
1 Nithard
Born circa 796
Died 15 May 845 (in battle)

with no descendants recorded (NB his death on 15 May 845 follows the date
given in his epitaph and the year deduced by F-L Ganshof in a paper
published in 1930 - most authorities before then usually gave 14 June 844).

Equally, the ancestry of Count Helpuin is not known.

What source did you find suggesting a connection between these men?

Peter Stewart

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Nithard "the Chronicler" ...

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 19 mar 2005 06:36:26

In article <HKN_d.3290$C7.2715@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"don" <donmatson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111177651.758099.146400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Is Nithard "the Chronicler" St. Riquier b. ca. 795 d. 833 a ancestor of

Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Count of Arcis-sur-Aube b. ca. 930 d. 978,
wife Hersinde/Helissende de Ramerupt/Rameru?
If so, how?

Now that Brigitte Gastel Lloyd has made available a list of Charlemagne's
descendants over 20 generations, as advised by Leo, at

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/famous/c ... nedesc.htm

it is worth checking there first. Nithard is in the second generation, as
follows:

II-4 (I-8)
1 Nithard
Born circa 796
Died 15 May 845 (in battle)

with no descendants recorded (NB his death on 15 May 845 follows the date
given in his epitaph and the year deduced by F-L Ganshof in a paper
published in 1930 - most authorities before then usually gave 14 June 844).

Equally, the ancestry of Count Helpuin is not known.

What source did you find suggesting a connection between these men?

Turton's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (1928), p. 13, makes Nithard the
male-line ancestor of the 11th-century counts of Ponthieu; it is unclear
whether he means to pin this on Louis de Mas-Latrie, his stated source
for Ponthieu itself.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Peter Stewart

Re: Nithard "the Chronicler" ...

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 mar 2005 07:47:51

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-CE05A7.00382219032005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
In article <HKN_d.3290$C7.2715@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"don" <donmatson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111177651.758099.146400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Is Nithard "the Chronicler" St. Riquier b. ca. 795 d. 833 a ancestor of

Helgaud/Helpuin/Herlouin, Count of Arcis-sur-Aube b. ca. 930 d. 978,
wife Hersinde/Helissende de Ramerupt/Rameru?
If so, how?

Now that Brigitte Gastel Lloyd has made available a list of Charlemagne's
descendants over 20 generations, as advised by Leo, at

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/famous/c ... nedesc.htm

it is worth checking there first. Nithard is in the second generation, as
follows:

II-4 (I-8)
1 Nithard
Born circa 796
Died 15 May 845 (in battle)

with no descendants recorded (NB his death on 15 May 845 follows the date
given in his epitaph and the year deduced by F-L Ganshof in a paper
published in 1930 - most authorities before then usually gave 14 June
844).

Equally, the ancestry of Count Helpuin is not known.

What source did you find suggesting a connection between these men?

Turton's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (1928), p. 13, makes Nithard the
male-line ancestor of the 11th-century counts of Ponthieu; it is unclear
whether he means to pin this on Louis de Mas-Latrie, his stated source
for Ponthieu itself.

Turton had apparently taken somewhat liberally what Mas Latrie wrote, though
this is a fantasy anyway - in the series of counts of Ponthieu he listed the
early lay abbots of Saint-Riquier abbey, missing some but including
Angilbert and Nithard, father and son (the chronicle of Hariulf describes
them, plausibly, as rulers in that area). Then, after the Welfing Rodulf
(maternal uncle of Charles the Bald) he listed Helgaud I, calling him "son
of Nithard or grandson of [the latter's brother] Hartnid", and proceeded to
derived a series of successors from his lineage. This is unfounded
speculation, without any contemporary evidence.

The counts of Ponthieu can only be traced back as far as Hugo, the castellan
of Abbeville who became advocate (not lay abbot) of Saint-Riquier towards
the end of the tenth century and allegedly married King Hugo Capet's
daughter Gisela.

Peter Stewart

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»