CP omission? Marmion questions
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
CP omission? Marmion questions
First the omission (if it is one)
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 edition page 357
William de Marmyon, youngest son of Robert de Marmyon, 3rd feudal lord of Tamworth, was summoned as a Baron to Parliament, by writ of summons dated 24 December 1264.
I could not find him in the Complete Peerage. Shouldn't he be there? "His lordship appears to have died without progeny when the barony became, of course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be illegitimate.
Now some problems.
Combining the Complete Peerage volume VIII from page 505 onwards and the Extinct Peerage 1866, page 355 on wards.
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, born ca.1095, died ca.1143,
he married Milicent.
According to CP volume XIV (published in 1998) Milicent has become a daughter of Hugh, Count of Rethel. In the appropriate time frame I can find only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4 Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter Melisende/Milicent.
And the problems continue, Robert and Milicent have a son
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, he married Elisabeth de Rethel daughter of Gervase de Rethel (son of the above Hugh) and Elisabeth de Namur.
CP XIV turns this Elisabeth de Rethel into a Elisabeth with origins unknown.
ES III/4 Tafel 625 also has this Elisabeth as a daughter of Gervase and Elisabeth de Namur.
What is correct?
Robert and Elisabeth have a son
Robert de Marmion (3rd) feudal Lord of Tamworth, died before 15 May 1218
according to Burke's Extinct Peerage he had three sons by different mothers.
Robert, Robert the younger and William.
I have This Robert married twice, to Maud de Beauchamp and a Philippe.
I understand that his son Robert is by Maud de Beauchamp and Robert the younger and William by Philippe.
This William is clearly recorded as the youngest son and his is the one I think should have been mentioned in CP.
Can anyone shine light on these problems?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 edition page 357
William de Marmyon, youngest son of Robert de Marmyon, 3rd feudal lord of Tamworth, was summoned as a Baron to Parliament, by writ of summons dated 24 December 1264.
I could not find him in the Complete Peerage. Shouldn't he be there? "His lordship appears to have died without progeny when the barony became, of course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be illegitimate.
Now some problems.
Combining the Complete Peerage volume VIII from page 505 onwards and the Extinct Peerage 1866, page 355 on wards.
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, born ca.1095, died ca.1143,
he married Milicent.
According to CP volume XIV (published in 1998) Milicent has become a daughter of Hugh, Count of Rethel. In the appropriate time frame I can find only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4 Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter Melisende/Milicent.
And the problems continue, Robert and Milicent have a son
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, he married Elisabeth de Rethel daughter of Gervase de Rethel (son of the above Hugh) and Elisabeth de Namur.
CP XIV turns this Elisabeth de Rethel into a Elisabeth with origins unknown.
ES III/4 Tafel 625 also has this Elisabeth as a daughter of Gervase and Elisabeth de Namur.
What is correct?
Robert and Elisabeth have a son
Robert de Marmion (3rd) feudal Lord of Tamworth, died before 15 May 1218
according to Burke's Extinct Peerage he had three sons by different mothers.
Robert, Robert the younger and William.
I have This Robert married twice, to Maud de Beauchamp and a Philippe.
I understand that his son Robert is by Maud de Beauchamp and Robert the younger and William by Philippe.
This William is clearly recorded as the youngest son and his is the one I think should have been mentioned in CP.
Can anyone shine light on these problems?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
-
Gjest
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
Leo,
According to Stebbing Shaws's History & Antiquities of Staffordshire under
Tamworth Castle the lineage of Robert Marmion and Milicent goes, as you say :
1) ROBERT, son and heir = unknown
2) ROBERT, son and heir of above = Maud de Beauchamp. He had two sons
both named ROBERT by two different women. He also had a younger son named,
WILLIAM.
3) ROBERT, the elder son of the above
3) PHILIP, son and heir of the elder son ROBERT. PHILIP married Joan
Kilpeck and left 4 daughters as his co-heirs.
One of the 4 daughters, Joan married Alexander Frevile. Another daughter,
also named Joane, was the wife of William Mortein and his daughter Maud was the
wife of Ralph Bottiler and another daughter was the wife of Ralph Cromwell.
Rose
According to Stebbing Shaws's History & Antiquities of Staffordshire under
Tamworth Castle the lineage of Robert Marmion and Milicent goes, as you say :
1) ROBERT, son and heir = unknown
2) ROBERT, son and heir of above = Maud de Beauchamp. He had two sons
both named ROBERT by two different women. He also had a younger son named,
WILLIAM.
3) ROBERT, the elder son of the above
3) PHILIP, son and heir of the elder son ROBERT. PHILIP married Joan
Kilpeck and left 4 daughters as his co-heirs.
One of the 4 daughters, Joan married Alexander Frevile. Another daughter,
also named Joane, was the wife of William Mortein and his daughter Maud was the
wife of Ralph Bottiler and another daughter was the wife of Ralph Cromwell.
Rose
-
Gjest
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
The information I sent was from "The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury
(1611-1695) and His Wife Mary (Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of
Salisbury, Massachusetts" by John Brooks Threfall (1988). He cites
from: "History of the Baronial Family of Marmion" (Tamworth 1875) by
C.F.R. Palmer, New Complete Peerage, Societe des Antiquaires de
Normandie, Tome 7, Cartulaire de la Seigneurie de Fontenay le Marmion
by G. Saige, Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, Boarstall Cartulary by Salter
and other sources.
Threfall's take is:
1. Robert Marmion b.c. 1090-5 m. Milicent de Rethel
2. Robert Marmion b. bef 1133 m. ???
3. Robert Marmion b.c. 1150-60 m. Maud de Beauchamp
3. brother of the above, William Marmion b. c. 1160-70, Lord of
Checkendon
4. son of the above William, Geoffrey Marmion b.c. 1199 and so on
(1611-1695) and His Wife Mary (Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of
Salisbury, Massachusetts" by John Brooks Threfall (1988). He cites
from: "History of the Baronial Family of Marmion" (Tamworth 1875) by
C.F.R. Palmer, New Complete Peerage, Societe des Antiquaires de
Normandie, Tome 7, Cartulaire de la Seigneurie de Fontenay le Marmion
by G. Saige, Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, Boarstall Cartulary by Salter
and other sources.
Threfall's take is:
1. Robert Marmion b.c. 1090-5 m. Milicent de Rethel
2. Robert Marmion b. bef 1133 m. ???
3. Robert Marmion b.c. 1150-60 m. Maud de Beauchamp
3. brother of the above, William Marmion b. c. 1160-70, Lord of
Checkendon
4. son of the above William, Geoffrey Marmion b.c. 1199 and so on
-
Chris Phillips
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
Leo van de Pas wrote:
December 1264.
course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a
son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be
illegitimate.
CP viii 517, 518 places this William as the son of Robert (d. ?1241), who
was a younger son of Robert (d. by 1218) by his 2nd wife Philippe. According
to CP William had a son and heir John; I can't see any mention of a son
Geoffrey.
only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4
Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter
Melisende/Milicent.
It seems CP xiv has erred in giving the wrong name for Miilicent's father.
For this correction, CP cites G. A. Moriarty, Genealogists' Magazine, ix,
pp. 424-6 (1944).
Alan B. Wilson in April 1997 summarised Moriarty's argument for Milicent
being the daughter of _Gervase_, not Hugh, Count of Rethel:
http://tinyurl.com/666ub
de Namur.
If Moriarty is correct, Elizabeth daughter of Gervase Count of Rethel was an
error for Milicent daughter of Gervase who belongs a generation earlier.
Hence the removal of her parentage in CP xiv. What's not clear to me is
whether there is any evidence that this Robert's wife was even named
Elizabeth. Alan Wilson instead married this Robert to Maud de Beauchamp (who
occurs a generation later in the CP account, and is left there by CP xiv).
William the youngest son of Robert (d. by 1218) is shown as a clerk in the
chart pedigree in CP. The William you refer to is instead shown as the son
of Robert, the younger son of Robert (d. by 1218).
Chris Phillips
First the omission (if it is one)
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 edition page 357
William de Marmyon, youngest son of Robert de Marmyon, 3rd feudal lord of
Tamworth, was summoned as a Baron to Parliament, by writ of summons dated 24
December 1264.
I could not find him in the Complete Peerage. Shouldn't he be there? "His
lordship appears to have died without progeny when the barony became, of
course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a
son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be
illegitimate.
CP viii 517, 518 places this William as the son of Robert (d. ?1241), who
was a younger son of Robert (d. by 1218) by his 2nd wife Philippe. According
to CP William had a son and heir John; I can't see any mention of a son
Geoffrey.
Now some problems.
Combining the Complete Peerage volume VIII from page 505 onwards and the
Extinct Peerage 1866, page 355 on wards.
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, born ca.1095, died
ca.1143,
he married Milicent.
According to CP volume XIV (published in 1998) Milicent has become a
daughter of Hugh, Count of Rethel. In the appropriate time frame I can find
only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4
Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter
Melisende/Milicent.
It seems CP xiv has erred in giving the wrong name for Miilicent's father.
For this correction, CP cites G. A. Moriarty, Genealogists' Magazine, ix,
pp. 424-6 (1944).
Alan B. Wilson in April 1997 summarised Moriarty's argument for Milicent
being the daughter of _Gervase_, not Hugh, Count of Rethel:
http://tinyurl.com/666ub
And the problems continue, Robert and Milicent have a son
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, he married Elisabeth de
Rethel daughter of Gervase de Rethel (son of the above Hugh) and Elisabeth
de Namur.
CP XIV turns this Elisabeth de Rethel into a Elisabeth with origins
unknown.
ES III/4 Tafel 625 also has this Elisabeth as a daughter of Gervase and
Elisabeth de Namur.
What is correct?
If Moriarty is correct, Elizabeth daughter of Gervase Count of Rethel was an
error for Milicent daughter of Gervase who belongs a generation earlier.
Hence the removal of her parentage in CP xiv. What's not clear to me is
whether there is any evidence that this Robert's wife was even named
Elizabeth. Alan Wilson instead married this Robert to Maud de Beauchamp (who
occurs a generation later in the CP account, and is left there by CP xiv).
Robert and Elisabeth have a son
Robert de Marmion (3rd) feudal Lord of Tamworth, died before 15 May 1218
according to Burke's Extinct Peerage he had three sons by different
mothers.
Robert, Robert the younger and William.
I have This Robert married twice, to Maud de Beauchamp and a Philippe.
I understand that his son Robert is by Maud de Beauchamp and Robert the
younger and William by Philippe.
This William is clearly recorded as the youngest son and his is the one I
think should have been mentioned in CP.
William the youngest son of Robert (d. by 1218) is shown as a clerk in the
chart pedigree in CP. The William you refer to is instead shown as the son
of Robert, the younger son of Robert (d. by 1218).
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
REPOST: Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
Leo van de Pas wrote:
December 1264.
course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a
son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be
illegitimate.
CP viii 517, 518 places this William as the son of Robert (d. ?1241), who
was a younger son of Robert (d. by 1218) by his 2nd wife Philippe. According
to CP William had a son and heir John; I can't see any mention of a son
Geoffrey.
only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4
Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter
Melisende/Milicent.
It seems CP xiv has erred in giving the wrong name for Miilicent's father.
For this correction, CP cites G. A. Moriarty, Genealogists' Magazine, ix,
pp. 424-6 (1944).
Alan B. Wilson in April 1997 summarised Moriarty's argument for Milicent
being the daughter of _Gervase_, not Hugh, Count of Rethel:
http://tinyurl.com/666ub
de Namur.
If Moriarty is correct, Elizabeth daughter of Gervase Count of Rethel was an
error for Milicent daughter of Gervase who belongs a generation earlier.
Hence the removal of her parentage in CP xiv. What's not clear to me is
whether there is any evidence that this Robert's wife was even named
Elizabeth. Alan Wilson instead married this Robert to Maud de Beauchamp (who
occurs a generation later in the CP account, and is left there by CP xiv).
William the youngest son of Robert (d. by 1218) is shown as a clerk in the
chart pedigree in CP. The William you refer to is instead shown as the son
of Robert, the younger son of Robert (d. by 1218).
Chris Phillips
First the omission (if it is one)
Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 edition page 357
William de Marmyon, youngest son of Robert de Marmyon, 3rd feudal lord of
Tamworth, was summoned as a Baron to Parliament, by writ of summons dated 24
December 1264.
I could not find him in the Complete Peerage. Shouldn't he be there? "His
lordship appears to have died without progeny when the barony became, of
course, extinct." I have been made to understand that this William had a
son Geoffrey Marmion married to a Rosamund, of course Geoffrey could be
illegitimate.
CP viii 517, 518 places this William as the son of Robert (d. ?1241), who
was a younger son of Robert (d. by 1218) by his 2nd wife Philippe. According
to CP William had a son and heir John; I can't see any mention of a son
Geoffrey.
Now some problems.
Combining the Complete Peerage volume VIII from page 505 onwards and the
Extinct Peerage 1866, page 355 on wards.
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, born ca.1095, died
ca.1143,
he married Milicent.
According to CP volume XIV (published in 1998) Milicent has become a
daughter of Hugh, Count of Rethel. In the appropriate time frame I can find
only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4
Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter
Melisende/Milicent.
It seems CP xiv has erred in giving the wrong name for Miilicent's father.
For this correction, CP cites G. A. Moriarty, Genealogists' Magazine, ix,
pp. 424-6 (1944).
Alan B. Wilson in April 1997 summarised Moriarty's argument for Milicent
being the daughter of _Gervase_, not Hugh, Count of Rethel:
http://tinyurl.com/666ub
And the problems continue, Robert and Milicent have a son
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, he married Elisabeth de
Rethel daughter of Gervase de Rethel (son of the above Hugh) and Elisabeth
de Namur.
CP XIV turns this Elisabeth de Rethel into a Elisabeth with origins
unknown.
ES III/4 Tafel 625 also has this Elisabeth as a daughter of Gervase and
Elisabeth de Namur.
What is correct?
If Moriarty is correct, Elizabeth daughter of Gervase Count of Rethel was an
error for Milicent daughter of Gervase who belongs a generation earlier.
Hence the removal of her parentage in CP xiv. What's not clear to me is
whether there is any evidence that this Robert's wife was even named
Elizabeth. Alan Wilson instead married this Robert to Maud de Beauchamp (who
occurs a generation later in the CP account, and is left there by CP xiv).
Robert and Elisabeth have a son
Robert de Marmion (3rd) feudal Lord of Tamworth, died before 15 May 1218
according to Burke's Extinct Peerage he had three sons by different
mothers.
Robert, Robert the younger and William.
I have This Robert married twice, to Maud de Beauchamp and a Philippe.
I understand that his son Robert is by Maud de Beauchamp and Robert the
younger and William by Philippe.
This William is clearly recorded as the youngest son and his is the one I
think should have been mentioned in CP.
William the youngest son of Robert (d. by 1218) is shown as a clerk in the
chart pedigree in CP. The William you refer to is instead shown as the son
of Robert, the younger son of Robert (d. by 1218).
Chris Phillips
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:025301c52a70$b681f0c0$c3b4fea9@email...
<snip>
Alberic of Trois-Fontaines recorded that a daughter (not named by him) of
Gervase, count of Rethel & Elizabeth of Namur had been married off (by her
step-father, in order to disinherit her) to a Norman named Robert Marmion.
According to a note by G.W. Watson in _The Genealogist_, new series 14
(1898) this was overlooked by the editors of _L'art de vérifier les dates_
in their study of the Rethel family.
G.Andrews Moriarty, in 'The Marmion-Rethel Marriage' republished in
_Genealogists' Magazine_ 9 from _The American Genealogist_ 20, concluded
that the Rethel bride in question must have been Milicent, wife of Robert
Marmion I, who was called "cognata mea" by her second cousin, Queen Adeliza.
She later married Richard de Camville, and had evidently been named after
her paternal grandmother, Milicent (Milisendis, Mélisande) of Monthléry,
rather than after her mother Elizabeth of Namur as some modern sources
suggest.
Her son Robert Marmion II may have had a wife named Elizabeth - I haven't
looked into that lineage.
Peter Stewart
news:025301c52a70$b681f0c0$c3b4fea9@email...
First the omission (if it is one)
<snip>
Now some problems.
Combining the Complete Peerage volume VIII from page 505 onwards
and the Extinct Peerage 1866, page 355 on wards.
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, born ca.1095, died
ca.1143, he married Milicent.
According to CP volume XIV (published in 1998) Milicent has become a
daughter of Hugh, Count of Rethel. In the appropriate time frame I can
find
only one Hugh, married to Melisende de Monthlery. According to ES III/4
Tafel 625 (published in 1989) this couple does not have a daughter
Melisende/Milicent.
And the problems continue, Robert and Milicent have a son
Robert de Marmion, Sire de Fontenay-le-Marmion, he married Elisabeth de
Rethel daughter of Gervase de Rethel (son of the above Hugh) and Elisabeth
de Namur.CP XIV turns this Elisabeth de Rethel into a Elisabeth with
origins
unknown. ES III/4 Tafel 625 also has this Elisabeth as a daughter of
Gervase
and Elisabeth de Namur.
What is correct?
Alberic of Trois-Fontaines recorded that a daughter (not named by him) of
Gervase, count of Rethel & Elizabeth of Namur had been married off (by her
step-father, in order to disinherit her) to a Norman named Robert Marmion.
According to a note by G.W. Watson in _The Genealogist_, new series 14
(1898) this was overlooked by the editors of _L'art de vérifier les dates_
in their study of the Rethel family.
G.Andrews Moriarty, in 'The Marmion-Rethel Marriage' republished in
_Genealogists' Magazine_ 9 from _The American Genealogist_ 20, concluded
that the Rethel bride in question must have been Milicent, wife of Robert
Marmion I, who was called "cognata mea" by her second cousin, Queen Adeliza.
She later married Richard de Camville, and had evidently been named after
her paternal grandmother, Milicent (Milisendis, Mélisande) of Monthléry,
rather than after her mother Elizabeth of Namur as some modern sources
suggest.
Her son Robert Marmion II may have had a wife named Elizabeth - I haven't
looked into that lineage.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
Wednesday, 16 March, 2005
Dear Leo, Chris, Peter, Rose, Martin, et al.,
Although this is a short-term visit to SGM (in virtual absentia until 15 April), I noted the interesting thread on the Rethel-Marmion/de Camville relationships. The Marmions are an ongoing source of confusion, and the de Camville family only somewhat less so.
The relationship between Queen Adeliza and Millicent/Melisende of Rethel is that of 2nd cousins, through a common descent from their great-grandparents Albert III of Namur and Ida of Saxony. The following pedigree gives what I have for the descendants (Marmion and de Camville only) of Millicent of Rethel, by both husbands.
I should note, the mention of Geoffrey Marmion brings up a collateral line - Geoffrey Marmion (ancestor of ) was a brother of Robert Marmion, 1st husband of Millicent of Rethel. Geoffrey Marmion, of Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln (d. aft 1166), exchanged his rights in those manors with his nephew Robert Marmion, for Avon and Ditchampton, Wilts. and the honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen. Interestingly, his granddaughter and eventual heiress Aubree Marmion carried the lands of Llanstephan & c. to her husband William de Camville, as noted below [cf. CP III:3 (Camville), p. 3n and CP VIII:508 (Marmion), p. 508n].
I hope this is of use.
Cheers,
John
1 Gervase of Rethel
----------------------------------------
Death: 1124[1]
Occ: Count of Rethel
Father: Hugh I of Rethel (-1118)
Mother: Melisende de Montlhery
archdeacon of Rheims until father's death (and brother's subsequent resignation of his title as Count of Rethel, 1118)[2],[1]
first husband of Elizabeth of Namur[1]
Spouse: Elizabeth of Namur[1]
Death: aft 1141[1]
Father: Godfrey of Namur (-1139)
Mother: Sybil de Chateau-Porcien
Children: Millicent (ca1110-)
1.1a Millicent of Rethel*[3],[1]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1110[1]
shown in CP as Millicent, parentage unknown[3]
received gift of part of Stanton, co. Oxon. from Adeliza of Louvain, Queen of England, who recognized her as a cousin ["cognata mea"][1]
identification as Millicent of Rethel by Alan B. Wilson[1],[4] :
' Moriarty in TAG xx (Jan, 1944), 255-256, points out that
Alberic, Canon of Huyon-sur-Meuse states that Clarembald de
Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in
1124, in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of
Gervase out of the country to a certain noble of Normandy named
Robert Marmion. But Alberic does not give the name of the
daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her husband. The
daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so
chronologically it would more likely be to Robert I than to
Robert II. The mother of Count Gervase of Rethel was Milicent
of Montlhery. Thus Milicent, the wife of Robert I could have
been named for her paternal grandmother.
Queen Adeliza of Louvain, wife of Henry I, gave part of
Stanton, Co. Oxon, to Milicent, wife of Robert Marmion, "cognata
mea." Stanton passed with Isabel, dau. of Milicent and Richard
de Camville to her husband, Robert de Harcourt as her
maritagium, and Stanton Harcourt has subsequently remained in
that family. Queen Adeliza was a second cousin of the daughter
of Gervase, both being descended from Albert III de Namur, d.
1102, & Ida of Saxony.
Moriarty concludes, in view of these arguments, that it was
Robert I who married the daughter of the Count of Rethel, and
that her name was Milicent. This corrects Palmer, "History of
the Baronial Family of Marmion," 1875, Watson (The Genealogist,
n.s., xiv, 70), Clay in "Complete Peerage" (vii, 509), and, of
course, although not then published, ES, iii, 625.'[4]
she m. 1stly Robert Marmion,
2ndly Richard de Camville[4]
Re: her first husband, Robert Marmion:
seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion (destroyed by Count of Anjou, 1140), and lord of Tamworth, co. Warwick[3]
Re: her 2nd husband, Richard de Camville:
of Stanton, Oxon.[3]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[1]
'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's confirmation and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and `Willecroft', ca. 1145-1150[5]
founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. (DD pp. 378-9)[6]
* NOTE: her placement as wife of Robert de Marmion (d.1181) by Paul
Theroff is erroneous[7] - this Robert was her son.
Spouse: Robert Marmion
Birth: ca 1095[1]
Death: ca 1144, Coventry (murdered)[3],[1]
Father: Roger Marmion (-ca1130)
Marr: bef 1130[1]
Children: Robert (<1133-<1181)
Mabel (-<1211)
Other Spouses Richard de Camville
1.1a.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1133[1]
Death: bef Nov 1181[3]
of Tamworth, co. Warwick
exchanged manors of Avon and Ditchampton, co. Wilts. and the honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen to uncle Geoffrey for Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln[3]
Spouse: Maud de Beauchamp[1]
Father: William de Beauchamp (-1170)
Mother: NN
Children: Robert (-<1218)
1.1a.1.1a Robert Marmion*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 15 May 1218[3]
of Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln, and Tamworth and Middleton,
co. Warwick;
justice of assize at Caen, 1177; Sheriff of Worcester, 1185-1189[3]
Spouse: NN
Children: Robert (-ca1243)
Other Spouses Philippe
1.1a.1.1a.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1243[8]
of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. and Tamworth, co. Warwick
'Robert IV', lost his English lands, had temporary restoration in 1220 (Sanders, p. 145)[8]
Spouse: Juliane de Vassy
Father: Philip de Vassy
Children: Philip (-1291)
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a Philip Marmion*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1291[8]
of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. and Tamworth, co. Warwick[9]
he m. 1stly Joan de Kilpeck,
2ndly Mary[4]
Spouse: Joan de Kilpeck
Father: Hugh de Kilpeck (-1244)
Children: Mazera (-<1291)
Maud (-1341)
Other Spouses Mary
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a.1 Mazera Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1291, d.v.p.[8]
1st wife of Ralph de Cromwell[10]
2nd daughter and coheiress (in her issue) of her father
Tamworth passed into Freville family
Spouse: Ralph de Cromwell
Death: bef 18 Sep 1289[3]
Father: Ralph de Cromwell
Children: Joan
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a.2 Maud Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1341[8]
youngest daughter and coheiress of her father
1.1a.1.1a.1.1b Philip Marmion* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Mary
Children: Joan (-1295)
1.1a.1.1a.1.1b.1 Joan Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1295[8]
daughter (by 2nd wife) and coheiress of her father
Douglas Richardson wrote,
" Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 513, footnote d and 514, footnote
a (sub Marmion) shows that Joan Marmion (died 1340-1), daughter and
co-heiress of Philip Marmion (died 1291), married (1st) Thomas de
Ludlow, by whom she had a son, Thomas; and (2nd) Henry Hillary (died
1349), by whom she had a son, Edward Hillary, knt. At the Coronation
of King Edward III in 1327, Henry Hillary, Joan's 2nd husband, claimed
to perform the service of King's Champion.
Inasmuch as the IPM of Agnes de Grey's husband, Sir Edward Hillary,
shows that he held at his death 2 acres of land at Scrivelsby,
Lincolnshire, which property was the inheritance of Joan Marmion, it
seems safe to conclude that Sir Edward Hillary, husband of Agnes de
Grey, is the same person as Sir Edward Hillary, who was the son and
heir of Henry Hillary, of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire, by his 1st wife,
Joan Marmion [see Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 167, footnote h (sub
Grey)]. "[11]
Spouse: Henry Hillary
Death: 1349[11]
Children: Sir Edward Hillary, of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. (-1362)
1.1a.1.1b Robert Marmion* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Philippe[3]
Children: Robert (-<1242)
1.1a.1.1b.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 23 Oct 1242[3]
of Winteringham and Coningsby, co. Lincoln, Quinton, co. Gloucester,
and Berwick, Sussex
eldest son by 2nd wife[3]
he rendered account 350 marks and 5 palfreys in 1214 to
marry Avice de Tanfield [EYC V:53-58[12]]
'Robert V' (see Sanders, p. 73)[8]
Spouse: Avice de Tanfield
Death: aft 1283[3]
Father: Gernegan de Tanfield (-ca1214)
Marr: 1214[12]
Children: Sir William (-<1277)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1 Sir William Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1277[3]
of Tanfield, co. York and Winteringham, co. Lincoln;
supporter of Simon de Montfort, 24 Dec 1264 (summoned to rebel
Parliament); pardoned by Henry III 1 July 1267[3]
Spouse: Loretta de Dover
Father: Richard fitz Roy (-ca1245)
Mother: Rohese of Dover (->1256)
Marr: bef 1249[3]
Children: John (-<1322)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1 John Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 7 May 1322[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
knight, of East Tanfield, Carthorpe, Little Langton, co. York;
Winteringham, co. Lincoln, Luddington, Northants., Nether and Over
Quinton, co. Goucester, and Berwick, Winton and Pikehay, Sussex
summoned to Parliament from 23 Sept 1313 to 2 May 1322 by writs
directed 'Johanni Marmyon,' whereby he is held to have become Lord
Marmion[3]
Spouse: Isabel[3]
Children: John (ca1292-1335)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1 John Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 30 Apr 1335[3]
Birth: ca 1292[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
of West Tanfield, East Tanfield, Carthorpe, Manfield and Brough,
co. York[3]
2nd Lord Marmion; summoned to Parliament from 3 Dec 1326 by writ
directed 'Johanni Marmyoun'[3]
Spouse: Maud de Furnival[3]
Death: aft 1347[2]
Father: Sir Thomas de Furnival (>1251-<1332)
Mother: Joan le Despenser (-<1322)
Children: Robert (-<1361)
Avice
Joan (-1361)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1361, d.s.p.[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
3rd Lord Marmion[3]
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.2 Avice Marmion
----------------------------------------
2nd wife[3]
Spouse: Sir John de Grey, Lord Grey of Rotherfield
Death: 1 Sep 1359[3]
Father: Sir John de Grey (ca1272-1311)
Mother: Margaret de Oddingseles (ca1277-)
Marr: bef 1343[13]
Children: John
Sir Robert Grey of Wilcote (-<1367)
Maud, m. Sir Thomas Harcourt
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.3 Joan Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1361
sister and coheiress of Robert Marmion, Lord Marmion [14]
Spouse: Sir John Bernake[15]
Birth: abt 1309[14]
Death: 20 Mar 1345
Father: Sir William Bernake (-1339)
Mother: Alice de Driby (<1279-)
Children: Maud (~1337-1419)
John (-ca1360)
1.1a.2 Mabel Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1211[3]
had lands in Sussex as her marriage portion
[CP IX:258 - Mortimer, p. 258n][3]
Spouse: Hugh de Say
Death: ca 1197[3],[8]
Father: Hugh de Say (-<1191)
Mother: Lucy de Clifford
Children: Margaret de Say (-<1243),
m. 1stly Hugh de Ferrieres,
2ndly Robert de Mortimer,
3rdly William de Stuteville
1.1b Millicent of Rethel* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Richard de Camville
Death: ca 1176[16]
Father: NN de Camville
Mother: NN de Ver
Marr: aft 1143[1]
Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William
1.1b.1 Maud de Camville
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1145[6]
'Matilda de Ros'
had the manor of Hildersham (or a moiety thereof) as her maritagium;
she granted land there to Clerkenwell priory, ca. 1190
when her daughter Beatrice became a nun. (confirmed by Aubrey
III de Vere) [DD 378-9, citing Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26[6]]
Spouse: William de Ros
Children: Beatrice de Ros
1.1b.2 Gerard de Camville[17]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[1]
lord of Camville
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne
and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land
and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit from all
earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion
passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189[19]
according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard [the
manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being enfeoffed by
King Richard I][16]
a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856[20]]
recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48[21], cites Pipe Roll 2 John,
Rot. 6]
also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of
Edward IV'[17]
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt
- p. 118n)[3]
had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '[22]
Spouse: Nicole de la Haye[17]
Death: 1230[1]
Father: Richard de la Haye (->1189)
Marr: bef 1185[1]
Children: Richard (-<1230)
1.1b.2.1 Richard de Camville[17]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1230, d.v.m.[8]
of Avington, co. Berks., Godington, Stoney Middleton, and Stratton,
co. Oxon.
lord of Camville
his father purchased the marriage of Eustache Basset, widow of Thomas
de Verdun in 1199 (Paul Reed, FASG citing the Pipe Rolls)[23],[20]
Spouse: Eustache Basset[3]
Father: Gilbert Basset (-<1205)
Mother: Egeline de Courtenay
Marr: ca 1199[23],[20]
Children: Idoine (-<1252)
1.1b.2.1.1 Idoine de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1252[15]
heiress of her father[3], and her grandmother Nichola de la Haye[8]
evidently also heiress of her mother - the manor of Wretchwick, Oxon.
was part of the maritagium of her daughter Ela (m. James de Audley),
and her husband William Longespee had a charter for a market at
Bicester granted 20 Oct 1239[22]
her inheritance included the manor of Brattleby, Lincs.
(CP Vol XI-Salisbury, p. 385n)[3] and a third part of the manor of
Shalford, co. Surrey [see suit brought by Ingram de Preaux, Sept
1226 - Eyton, vol. V, p. 291][24]
Spouse: Sir William Longespee
Death: 7 Feb 1249, battle of Mansura, Egypt (on crusade)[15]
Birth: bef 12 May 1205[25]
Father: William Longespee (ca1175-1225)
Mother: Ela of Salisbury (ca1187-1261)
Marr: aft Apr 1216[3]
Children: Ela (-<1299)
Sir William (-1257)
Ida (->1261)
Richard (-<1261)
1.1b.3 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------
lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[3]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[1]
Spouse: Robert de Harcourt
Death: ca 1206[6]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN
Children: Alice de Harcourt(->1212),
m. lstly John de Limesey [Limesi], of Cavendish,
2ndly Waleran de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick
William de Harcourt, of Stanton Harcourt(-1228)
1.1b.4 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191, probably Cyprus (on crusade)[26],[27]
of Benham, co. Berks.
witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of
their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles to
embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de Thornham
following its conquest, June 1191[26],[27]
died in Palestine according to sources[16]; in Cyprus according to
Runciman[27], given his administration there[26]
Children: John
1.1b.4.1 John de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: d.s.p.[16]
1.1b.5 Walter de Camville
----------------------------------------
witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated 1176-83,
addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of their
father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca. 1176-83
- A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
1. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury," Apr
14, 1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re: Marmion
Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson {abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
3. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe," 18 January 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites prior work and evidences re:
Marmion of Tamworth, Alan B. Wilson {abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
5. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some Reflections
upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The English Historical
Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign of King Stephen not
previously identified, or published: incl. Confirmation of gifts made
by Earl William de Warenne, PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward
II), m.149d, recited before the Exchequer.
6. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants:
A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
7. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Rethel," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/rethel.txt
8. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
9. Pedigree, Freville of Tamworth Castle
Descent from Sir Baldwin Freville
comp. by Robert O'Connor
roconnor@es.co.nz
10. Kay Allen, "De Cromwell," June 17, 1999, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
11. Douglas Richardson, "C.P. Addition: Grey of Sandiacre/Hillary/Marmion,"
21 October 2004, douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
cites CP records for Marmion and others.
12. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM,
26 Feb 2002.
13. Douglas Richardson, "Oddingseles," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ela FitzWalter,
daughter of Walter fitz Robert of Woodham Walter, and wife of William
de Oddingseles, of Solihull, co. Warwick (d. 19 Apr 1295).
14. Paul C. Reed, "Driby," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
22 June 1999, posted on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
15. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
16. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2, 2000,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
commentary on research of Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites
Inquisitions Post Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III.
File 44. (11).
17. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore &
Co., Ltd., 1975.
18. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
19. Cristopher Nash, "Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?,"
May 31, 2000, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, resp. to email, Dexter Kenfield
(dekester@mindspring.com)
20. "Gerard de Camville [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 856: Gerard de Camville.
21. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I), full
title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved in Her
Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
22. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North
Duffield.
23. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Clemence Dauntsey," Nov 16, 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
information also posted by Todd A. Farmerie.
24. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John Russell
Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster) and 133-142
(Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
25. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation," Sept
14, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
re: Idoine de Camville, cites Farrer (Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222),
Farrer citing R. Lit.Claus 2:110b, 123 [Close Rolls].
26. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1999,
129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
27. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols)," Cambridge
Univ. Press, 1954.
Dear Leo, Chris, Peter, Rose, Martin, et al.,
Although this is a short-term visit to SGM (in virtual absentia until 15 April), I noted the interesting thread on the Rethel-Marmion/de Camville relationships. The Marmions are an ongoing source of confusion, and the de Camville family only somewhat less so.
The relationship between Queen Adeliza and Millicent/Melisende of Rethel is that of 2nd cousins, through a common descent from their great-grandparents Albert III of Namur and Ida of Saxony. The following pedigree gives what I have for the descendants (Marmion and de Camville only) of Millicent of Rethel, by both husbands.
I should note, the mention of Geoffrey Marmion brings up a collateral line - Geoffrey Marmion (ancestor of ) was a brother of Robert Marmion, 1st husband of Millicent of Rethel. Geoffrey Marmion, of Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln (d. aft 1166), exchanged his rights in those manors with his nephew Robert Marmion, for Avon and Ditchampton, Wilts. and the honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen. Interestingly, his granddaughter and eventual heiress Aubree Marmion carried the lands of Llanstephan & c. to her husband William de Camville, as noted below [cf. CP III:3 (Camville), p. 3n and CP VIII:508 (Marmion), p. 508n].
I hope this is of use.
Cheers,
John
1 Gervase of Rethel
----------------------------------------
Death: 1124[1]
Occ: Count of Rethel
Father: Hugh I of Rethel (-1118)
Mother: Melisende de Montlhery
archdeacon of Rheims until father's death (and brother's subsequent resignation of his title as Count of Rethel, 1118)[2],[1]
first husband of Elizabeth of Namur[1]
Spouse: Elizabeth of Namur[1]
Death: aft 1141[1]
Father: Godfrey of Namur (-1139)
Mother: Sybil de Chateau-Porcien
Children: Millicent (ca1110-)
1.1a Millicent of Rethel*[3],[1]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1110[1]
shown in CP as Millicent, parentage unknown[3]
received gift of part of Stanton, co. Oxon. from Adeliza of Louvain, Queen of England, who recognized her as a cousin ["cognata mea"][1]
identification as Millicent of Rethel by Alan B. Wilson[1],[4] :
' Moriarty in TAG xx (Jan, 1944), 255-256, points out that
Alberic, Canon of Huyon-sur-Meuse states that Clarembald de
Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in
1124, in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of
Gervase out of the country to a certain noble of Normandy named
Robert Marmion. But Alberic does not give the name of the
daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her husband. The
daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so
chronologically it would more likely be to Robert I than to
Robert II. The mother of Count Gervase of Rethel was Milicent
of Montlhery. Thus Milicent, the wife of Robert I could have
been named for her paternal grandmother.
Queen Adeliza of Louvain, wife of Henry I, gave part of
Stanton, Co. Oxon, to Milicent, wife of Robert Marmion, "cognata
mea." Stanton passed with Isabel, dau. of Milicent and Richard
de Camville to her husband, Robert de Harcourt as her
maritagium, and Stanton Harcourt has subsequently remained in
that family. Queen Adeliza was a second cousin of the daughter
of Gervase, both being descended from Albert III de Namur, d.
1102, & Ida of Saxony.
Moriarty concludes, in view of these arguments, that it was
Robert I who married the daughter of the Count of Rethel, and
that her name was Milicent. This corrects Palmer, "History of
the Baronial Family of Marmion," 1875, Watson (The Genealogist,
n.s., xiv, 70), Clay in "Complete Peerage" (vii, 509), and, of
course, although not then published, ES, iii, 625.'[4]
she m. 1stly Robert Marmion,
2ndly Richard de Camville[4]
Re: her first husband, Robert Marmion:
seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion (destroyed by Count of Anjou, 1140), and lord of Tamworth, co. Warwick[3]
Re: her 2nd husband, Richard de Camville:
of Stanton, Oxon.[3]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[1]
'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's confirmation and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and `Willecroft', ca. 1145-1150[5]
founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. (DD pp. 378-9)[6]
* NOTE: her placement as wife of Robert de Marmion (d.1181) by Paul
Theroff is erroneous[7] - this Robert was her son.
Spouse: Robert Marmion
Birth: ca 1095[1]
Death: ca 1144, Coventry (murdered)[3],[1]
Father: Roger Marmion (-ca1130)
Marr: bef 1130[1]
Children: Robert (<1133-<1181)
Mabel (-<1211)
Other Spouses Richard de Camville
1.1a.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1133[1]
Death: bef Nov 1181[3]
of Tamworth, co. Warwick
exchanged manors of Avon and Ditchampton, co. Wilts. and the honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen to uncle Geoffrey for Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln[3]
Spouse: Maud de Beauchamp[1]
Father: William de Beauchamp (-1170)
Mother: NN
Children: Robert (-<1218)
1.1a.1.1a Robert Marmion*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 15 May 1218[3]
of Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln, and Tamworth and Middleton,
co. Warwick;
justice of assize at Caen, 1177; Sheriff of Worcester, 1185-1189[3]
Spouse: NN
Children: Robert (-ca1243)
Other Spouses Philippe
1.1a.1.1a.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1243[8]
of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. and Tamworth, co. Warwick
'Robert IV', lost his English lands, had temporary restoration in 1220 (Sanders, p. 145)[8]
Spouse: Juliane de Vassy
Father: Philip de Vassy
Children: Philip (-1291)
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a Philip Marmion*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1291[8]
of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. and Tamworth, co. Warwick[9]
he m. 1stly Joan de Kilpeck,
2ndly Mary[4]
Spouse: Joan de Kilpeck
Father: Hugh de Kilpeck (-1244)
Children: Mazera (-<1291)
Maud (-1341)
Other Spouses Mary
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a.1 Mazera Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1291, d.v.p.[8]
1st wife of Ralph de Cromwell[10]
2nd daughter and coheiress (in her issue) of her father
Tamworth passed into Freville family
Spouse: Ralph de Cromwell
Death: bef 18 Sep 1289[3]
Father: Ralph de Cromwell
Children: Joan
1.1a.1.1a.1.1a.2 Maud Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1341[8]
youngest daughter and coheiress of her father
1.1a.1.1a.1.1b Philip Marmion* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Mary
Children: Joan (-1295)
1.1a.1.1a.1.1b.1 Joan Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1295[8]
daughter (by 2nd wife) and coheiress of her father
Douglas Richardson wrote,
" Complete Peerage 8 (1932): 513, footnote d and 514, footnote
a (sub Marmion) shows that Joan Marmion (died 1340-1), daughter and
co-heiress of Philip Marmion (died 1291), married (1st) Thomas de
Ludlow, by whom she had a son, Thomas; and (2nd) Henry Hillary (died
1349), by whom she had a son, Edward Hillary, knt. At the Coronation
of King Edward III in 1327, Henry Hillary, Joan's 2nd husband, claimed
to perform the service of King's Champion.
Inasmuch as the IPM of Agnes de Grey's husband, Sir Edward Hillary,
shows that he held at his death 2 acres of land at Scrivelsby,
Lincolnshire, which property was the inheritance of Joan Marmion, it
seems safe to conclude that Sir Edward Hillary, husband of Agnes de
Grey, is the same person as Sir Edward Hillary, who was the son and
heir of Henry Hillary, of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire, by his 1st wife,
Joan Marmion [see Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 167, footnote h (sub
Grey)]. "[11]
Spouse: Henry Hillary
Death: 1349[11]
Children: Sir Edward Hillary, of Scrivelsby, co. Lincs. (-1362)
1.1a.1.1b Robert Marmion* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Philippe[3]
Children: Robert (-<1242)
1.1a.1.1b.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 23 Oct 1242[3]
of Winteringham and Coningsby, co. Lincoln, Quinton, co. Gloucester,
and Berwick, Sussex
eldest son by 2nd wife[3]
he rendered account 350 marks and 5 palfreys in 1214 to
marry Avice de Tanfield [EYC V:53-58[12]]
'Robert V' (see Sanders, p. 73)[8]
Spouse: Avice de Tanfield
Death: aft 1283[3]
Father: Gernegan de Tanfield (-ca1214)
Marr: 1214[12]
Children: Sir William (-<1277)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1 Sir William Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1277[3]
of Tanfield, co. York and Winteringham, co. Lincoln;
supporter of Simon de Montfort, 24 Dec 1264 (summoned to rebel
Parliament); pardoned by Henry III 1 July 1267[3]
Spouse: Loretta de Dover
Father: Richard fitz Roy (-ca1245)
Mother: Rohese of Dover (->1256)
Marr: bef 1249[3]
Children: John (-<1322)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1 John Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 7 May 1322[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
knight, of East Tanfield, Carthorpe, Little Langton, co. York;
Winteringham, co. Lincoln, Luddington, Northants., Nether and Over
Quinton, co. Goucester, and Berwick, Winton and Pikehay, Sussex
summoned to Parliament from 23 Sept 1313 to 2 May 1322 by writs
directed 'Johanni Marmyon,' whereby he is held to have become Lord
Marmion[3]
Spouse: Isabel[3]
Children: John (ca1292-1335)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1 John Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 30 Apr 1335[3]
Birth: ca 1292[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
of West Tanfield, East Tanfield, Carthorpe, Manfield and Brough,
co. York[3]
2nd Lord Marmion; summoned to Parliament from 3 Dec 1326 by writ
directed 'Johanni Marmyoun'[3]
Spouse: Maud de Furnival[3]
Death: aft 1347[2]
Father: Sir Thomas de Furnival (>1251-<1332)
Mother: Joan le Despenser (-<1322)
Children: Robert (-<1361)
Avice
Joan (-1361)
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1361, d.s.p.[3]
Occ: Lord Marmion
3rd Lord Marmion[3]
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.2 Avice Marmion
----------------------------------------
2nd wife[3]
Spouse: Sir John de Grey, Lord Grey of Rotherfield
Death: 1 Sep 1359[3]
Father: Sir John de Grey (ca1272-1311)
Mother: Margaret de Oddingseles (ca1277-)
Marr: bef 1343[13]
Children: John
Sir Robert Grey of Wilcote (-<1367)
Maud, m. Sir Thomas Harcourt
1.1a.1.1b.1.1.1.1.3 Joan Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: 1361
sister and coheiress of Robert Marmion, Lord Marmion [14]
Spouse: Sir John Bernake[15]
Birth: abt 1309[14]
Death: 20 Mar 1345
Father: Sir William Bernake (-1339)
Mother: Alice de Driby (<1279-)
Children: Maud (~1337-1419)
John (-ca1360)
1.1a.2 Mabel Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1211[3]
had lands in Sussex as her marriage portion
[CP IX:258 - Mortimer, p. 258n][3]
Spouse: Hugh de Say
Death: ca 1197[3],[8]
Father: Hugh de Say (-<1191)
Mother: Lucy de Clifford
Children: Margaret de Say (-<1243),
m. 1stly Hugh de Ferrieres,
2ndly Robert de Mortimer,
3rdly William de Stuteville
1.1b Millicent of Rethel* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Richard de Camville
Death: ca 1176[16]
Father: NN de Camville
Mother: NN de Ver
Marr: aft 1143[1]
Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William
1.1b.1 Maud de Camville
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1145[6]
'Matilda de Ros'
had the manor of Hildersham (or a moiety thereof) as her maritagium;
she granted land there to Clerkenwell priory, ca. 1190
when her daughter Beatrice became a nun. (confirmed by Aubrey
III de Vere) [DD 378-9, citing Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26[6]]
Spouse: William de Ros
Children: Beatrice de Ros
1.1b.2 Gerard de Camville[17]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[1]
lord of Camville
Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne
and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land
and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit from all
earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion
passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189[19]
according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard [the
manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being enfeoffed by
King Richard I][16]
a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856[20]]
recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48[21], cites Pipe Roll 2 John,
Rot. 6]
also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of
Edward IV'[17]
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt
- p. 118n)[3]
had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '[22]
Spouse: Nicole de la Haye[17]
Death: 1230[1]
Father: Richard de la Haye (->1189)
Marr: bef 1185[1]
Children: Richard (-<1230)
1.1b.2.1 Richard de Camville[17]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1230, d.v.m.[8]
of Avington, co. Berks., Godington, Stoney Middleton, and Stratton,
co. Oxon.
lord of Camville
his father purchased the marriage of Eustache Basset, widow of Thomas
de Verdun in 1199 (Paul Reed, FASG citing the Pipe Rolls)[23],[20]
Spouse: Eustache Basset[3]
Father: Gilbert Basset (-<1205)
Mother: Egeline de Courtenay
Marr: ca 1199[23],[20]
Children: Idoine (-<1252)
1.1b.2.1.1 Idoine de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1252[15]
heiress of her father[3], and her grandmother Nichola de la Haye[8]
evidently also heiress of her mother - the manor of Wretchwick, Oxon.
was part of the maritagium of her daughter Ela (m. James de Audley),
and her husband William Longespee had a charter for a market at
Bicester granted 20 Oct 1239[22]
her inheritance included the manor of Brattleby, Lincs.
(CP Vol XI-Salisbury, p. 385n)[3] and a third part of the manor of
Shalford, co. Surrey [see suit brought by Ingram de Preaux, Sept
1226 - Eyton, vol. V, p. 291][24]
Spouse: Sir William Longespee
Death: 7 Feb 1249, battle of Mansura, Egypt (on crusade)[15]
Birth: bef 12 May 1205[25]
Father: William Longespee (ca1175-1225)
Mother: Ela of Salisbury (ca1187-1261)
Marr: aft Apr 1216[3]
Children: Ela (-<1299)
Sir William (-1257)
Ida (->1261)
Richard (-<1261)
1.1b.3 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------
lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[3]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[1]
Spouse: Robert de Harcourt
Death: ca 1206[6]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN
Children: Alice de Harcourt(->1212),
m. lstly John de Limesey [Limesi], of Cavendish,
2ndly Waleran de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick
William de Harcourt, of Stanton Harcourt(-1228)
1.1b.4 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191, probably Cyprus (on crusade)[26],[27]
of Benham, co. Berks.
witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of
their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles to
embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de Thornham
following its conquest, June 1191[26],[27]
died in Palestine according to sources[16]; in Cyprus according to
Runciman[27], given his administration there[26]
Children: John
1.1b.4.1 John de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: d.s.p.[16]
1.1b.5 Walter de Camville
----------------------------------------
witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated 1176-83,
addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of their
father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca. 1176-83
- A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[18]
1. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury," Apr
14, 1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re: Marmion
Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson {abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
3. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe," 18 January 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites prior work and evidences re:
Marmion of Tamworth, Alan B. Wilson {abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
5. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some Reflections
upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The English Historical
Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign of King Stephen not
previously identified, or published: incl. Confirmation of gifts made
by Earl William de Warenne, PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward
II), m.149d, recited before the Exchequer.
6. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants:
A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
7. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Rethel," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/rethel.txt
8. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
9. Pedigree, Freville of Tamworth Castle
Descent from Sir Baldwin Freville
comp. by Robert O'Connor
roconnor@es.co.nz
10. Kay Allen, "De Cromwell," June 17, 1999, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
11. Douglas Richardson, "C.P. Addition: Grey of Sandiacre/Hillary/Marmion,"
21 October 2004, douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net
cites CP records for Marmion and others.
12. William Farrer, Hon.D.Litt., Editor, "Early Yorkshire Charters,"
Ballantyne, Hanson & Co., Edinburgh, 1915-1916, Vol. II (1915)
Vol. III (1916), Vol. XII [the family of Constable of Flamborough],
courtesy Rosie Bevan, Vol. V [Manfield fee, pp. 53-58 ], courtesy
Rosie Bevan, <Re: Avice de Tanfield, wife of Robert Marmion>, SGM,
26 Feb 2002.
13. Douglas Richardson, "Oddingseles," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ela FitzWalter,
daughter of Walter fitz Robert of Woodham Walter, and wife of William
de Oddingseles, of Solihull, co. Warwick (d. 19 Apr 1295).
14. Paul C. Reed, "Driby," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
22 June 1999, posted on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
15. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
16. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2, 2000,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
commentary on research of Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites
Inquisitions Post Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III.
File 44. (11).
17. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore &
Co., Ltd., 1975.
18. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
19. Cristopher Nash, "Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?,"
May 31, 2000, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, resp. to email, Dexter Kenfield
(dekester@mindspring.com)
20. "Gerard de Camville [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 856: Gerard de Camville.
21. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I), full
title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved in Her
Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
22. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North
Duffield.
23. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Clemence Dauntsey," Nov 16, 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
information also posted by Todd A. Farmerie.
24. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John Russell
Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster) and 133-142
(Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
25. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation," Sept
14, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
re: Idoine de Camville, cites Farrer (Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222),
Farrer citing R. Lit.Claus 2:110b, 123 [Close Rolls].
26. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1999,
129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
27. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols)," Cambridge
Univ. Press, 1954.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C6F8CD44DC3DE8-F38-298C@mblk-r38.sysops.aol.com...
<snip>
Given this common link of Queen Adeliza and Milicent of Rethel to a notable
Ida (whose name appeared often down the generations amongst her known
descendants), Milicent's own second marriage to Richard de Camville, and the
later marriage of Idonea (or Ida) de Camville to the famous Countess Ida of
Norfolk's grandson William de Longespee, a Marmion family connection might
be gainfully sought for Henry II's bastard son. Has this been discussed on
SGM yet?
Peter Stewart
news:8C6F8CD44DC3DE8-F38-298C@mblk-r38.sysops.aol.com...
<snip>
The relationship between Queen Adeliza and Millicent/Melisende
of Rethel is that of 2nd cousins, through a common descent from
their great-grandparents Albert III of Namur and Ida of Saxony.
Given this common link of Queen Adeliza and Milicent of Rethel to a notable
Ida (whose name appeared often down the generations amongst her known
descendants), Milicent's own second marriage to Richard de Camville, and the
later marriage of Idonea (or Ida) de Camville to the famous Countess Ida of
Norfolk's grandson William de Longespee, a Marmion family connection might
be gainfully sought for Henry II's bastard son. Has this been discussed on
SGM yet?
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: CP omission? Marmion questions
The new DNB, once again, adds some confusion to matters. It has Richard
de Camville (d.1176, Apulia) marrying (1) Alice, and (2) Millicent,
widow of Robert Marmion. Gerard is given as son by Alice; Millicent is
mother of Richard (d.1191, Palestine) who married Hawise, daughter of
Walter FitzWilliam of Whalton, Northumberland, and had Isabel, who
married Robert Harcourt. (It doesn't mention maternity of William or
Walter, but if younger then they are presumably Millicent's anyway.)
de Camville (d.1176, Apulia) marrying (1) Alice, and (2) Millicent,
widow of Robert Marmion. Gerard is given as son by Alice; Millicent is
mother of Richard (d.1191, Palestine) who married Hawise, daughter of
Walter FitzWilliam of Whalton, Northumberland, and had Isabel, who
married Robert Harcourt. (It doesn't mention maternity of William or
Walter, but if younger then they are presumably Millicent's anyway.)