Papal hoodwinking (for Nathaniel Taylor)

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Leo van de Pas

Papal hoodwinking (for Nathaniel Taylor)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 10 mar 2005 05:15:04

Cahiers de Saint Louis page 755.

Jean IV Count of Armagnac and his second wife Isabelle de Navarre had five children,
Jean V, Charles, Marie, Eleonore and Isabelle.

Jean V was born about 1421 and was murdered 5 March 1472 after the capitulation of Lectoure. By his full sister Isabelle he had three children. I think it is better to give the explanation as is given:
Jean V fit bénir son 'marriage' avec sa soeur vers 1450, prétendant recevoir du pape les dispenses nécessaires; une bulle falsifiée fut obtenue puis il fut excommunié et condamné au bannissement perpetuel et á la confiscation de tous ses biens; voir détails dans Balteau et Labarre de Raillicourt et surtout, Ch. Samarande.

The brother and sister had two sons and one daughter, Jean, Antoine and Rose. Antoine apparently died unmarried, Jean married and had two sons (apparently neither had children),
Rose married Gaspard de Villemur and had one son. However that son continues the bloodline to the present and today some descendants are: 15.Duc de Mortemart, 12.Duc de Brissac,11.Duc de Luynes and the 7th Earl of Rosslyn.

Hope this is of interest.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Papal hoodwinking (for Nathaniel Taylor)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 10 mar 2005 05:15:05

In article <001401c52520$65b57860$c3b4fea9@email>,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

Cahiers de Saint Louis page 755.

Jean IV Count of Armagnac and his second wife Isabelle de Navarre had five
children,
Jean V, Charles, Marie, Eleonore and Isabelle.

Jean V was born about 1421 and was murdered 5 March 1472 after the
capitulation of Lectoure. By his full sister Isabelle he had three children.
I think it is better to give the explanation as is given:
Jean V fit bénir son 'marriage' avec sa soeur vers 1450, prétendant recevoir
du pape les dispenses nécessaires; une bulle falsifiée fut obtenue puis il
fut excommunié et condamné au bannissement perpetuel et á la confiscation de
tous ses biens; voir détails dans Balteau et Labarre de Raillicourt et
surtout, Ch. Samarande.

The brother and sister had two sons and one daughter, Jean, Antoine and Rose.
Antoine apparently died unmarried, Jean married and had two sons (apparently
neither had children),
Rose married Gaspard de Villemur and had one son. However that son continues
the bloodline to the present and today some descendants are: 15.Duc de
Mortemart, 12.Duc de Brissac,11.Duc de Luynes and the 7th Earl of Rosslyn.

Weird! How many such, er, 'Ptolemaic' marriages do you have in your
database?

Balteau is the _Dictionnaire de biographie française_; Labarre de
Raillicourt wrote a short "Généalogie et biographie de la maison
d¹Armagnac" among other things; but who is Samarande? Harvard's library
and google fail here.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Papal hoodwinking (for Nathaniel Taylor)

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mar 2005 09:55:49

There's the children of Leopold Eberhard, the Duke of Montbeliard. TWO
sets of his children married one another in unions that were apparently
arranged by their father (!!!!!). His daughter Leopoldine Eberhardine
married her half-brother Ferdinand Eberhard and his son Georg Leopold
married his half-sister Eleonore Charlotte. Both marriages produced
children. Georg and Eleonore's descendants seem to have died out, but
Leopoldine and Ferdinand have descendants.

Of course there's tons of uncle/niece and even a couple of aunt/nephew
marriages among the Spanish and Portuguese royal families. The Thai
royal family had dozens of incestuous marriages, the last one taking
place around 1930 if I'm not mistaken.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Papal hoodwinking

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 10 mar 2005 15:41:25

In article <1110444949.631546.96300@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Nichol_storm@yahoo.com wrote:

There's the children of Leopold Eberhard, the Duke of Montbeliard. TWO
sets of his children married one another in unions that were apparently
arranged by their father (!!!!!). His daughter Leopoldine Eberhardine
married her half-brother Ferdinand Eberhard and his son Georg Leopold
married his half-sister Eleonore Charlotte. Both marriages produced
children. Georg and Eleonore's descendants seem to have died out, but
Leopoldine and Ferdinand have descendants.

Thanks! I was not aware of this case--18th century? Were there
political / inheritance questions involved (e.g., were the half-siblings
married to insure that possessions or claims coming from two of Leopold
Eberhard's wives were merged in the next generation)?

Of course there's tons of uncle/niece and even a couple of aunt/nephew
marriages among the Spanish and Portuguese royal families.

At least some of the earliest uncle / niece marriages are subject to
debate about the identity of the spouse--for example the one in late
10th-century Barcelona-Urgell. I'd like to see a list of these unions
from the medieval period, drawn up for discussion.

The Thai
royal family had dozens of incestuous marriages, the last one taking
place around 1930 if I'm not mistaken.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Cyril Delmas-Marsalet

Re: Papal hoodwinking (for Nathaniel Taylor)

Legg inn av Cyril Delmas-Marsalet » 10 mar 2005 16:16:49

Nathaniel Taylor a écrit :

Balteau is the _Dictionnaire de biographie française_; Labarre de
Raillicourt wrote a short "Généalogie et biographie de la maison
d¹Armagnac" among other things; but who is Samarande? Harvard's library
and google fail here.

You must be talking of Charles Samaran.


--
Cyril Delmas-Marsalet

Pages personnelles : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cdelmars
Centre Généalogique des Landes : http://www.cglandes.org

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Papal hoodwinking

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 10 mar 2005 17:43:37

In article <42306603$0$19315$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
Cyril Delmas-Marsalet <cyril.delmas-marsalet@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor a écrit :

Balteau is the _Dictionnaire de biographie française_; Labarre de
Raillicourt wrote a short "Généalogie et biographie de la maison
d¹Armagnac" among other things; but who is Samarande? Harvard's library
and google fail here.

You must be talking of Charles Samaran.

Ah, thanks! Saillot must refer to Ch. Samaran, _La maison d¹Armagnac au
XVe siècle et les dernières luttes de la féodalité dans le Midi de la
France_ (Paris, 1907).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Papal hoodwinking

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mar 2005 22:47:12

There also seems to be a reference to Rhys ap Gruffydd (Lord Rhys)
having a child by his niece. Not being familiar with this family, I'm
not sure if this child is one of his successors (Gryffudd, Maelgwyn, or
Rhys Gryg) or another son who disappeared into history. From the
Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur:
http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarn ... ddrhys.htm

"1173: In this year many men and animals died, nor was it surprising:
for there was born to Rhys a son by the daughter of Maredudd, his
brother."

As for the Montbeliard siblings, neither of the marriages were
recognized by religious authorites, and none of the children were
allowed to inherit. So if the incestuous unions were intended to
solidify inheritances, it would seem to have failed spectacularly.

Gjest

Re: Papal hoodwinking

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mar 2005 23:35:40

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <1110444949.631546.96300@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Nichol_storm@yahoo.com wrote:

There's the children of Leopold Eberhard, the Duke of Montbeliard.
TWO
sets of his children married one another in unions that were
apparently
arranged by their father (!!!!!). His daughter Leopoldine
Eberhardine
married her half-brother Ferdinand Eberhard and his son Georg
Leopold
married his half-sister Eleonore Charlotte. Both marriages produced
children. Georg and Eleonore's descendants seem to have died out,
but
Leopoldine and Ferdinand have descendants.

Thanks! I was not aware of this case--18th century? Were there
political / inheritance questions involved (e.g., were the
half-siblings
married to insure that possessions or claims coming from two of
Leopold
Eberhard's wives were merged in the next generation)?

Of course there's tons of uncle/niece and even a couple of
aunt/nephew
marriages among the Spanish and Portuguese royal families.

At least some of the earliest uncle / niece marriages are subject to
debate about the identity of the spouse--for example the one in late
10th-century Barcelona-Urgell. I'd like to see a list of these
unions
from the medieval period, drawn up for discussion.

The Hapsburg family is famously intra-married: certainly, two sons of
Emperor Ferdinand I (d.1564) married their nieces (Ferdinand Ct. of
Tyrol and Charles D. of Styria); Philip II of Spain married a niece as
his 4th wife, as did their grandson Philip IV as his 2nd wife; this
union produced a daughter who married Emperor Leopold I, who was in
turn her uncle. A large number of the other marriages in the family
were between first cousins. The Popes must have got used to sanctioning
these matches.
The Thai
royal family had dozens of incestuous marriages, the last one
taking
place around 1930 if I'm not mistaken.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

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