Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Ned Hawley

Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Ned Hawley » 09 mar 2005 08:30:02

I'm looking for clarification on the parents of Alice -- (Lisle?
Lyle?), wife of John Hoar(e) and residents of Scituate & Concord, MA
in the mid-late 17th Century. Alice is considered the possible
daughter of John Lord Lisle, Hampshire England, a descendant of the
royal family.

This subject has been debated here before, so let me try to extend the
research by challenging arguments on both sides of the matter ...

Much of the argument in favor of her being John Lord Lisle's daughter
rests on the marriage of John Hoare's brother Leonard to Bridget
Lisle, his daughter with Alice B., and the several non-contemporary
sources that claim that John Hoare married John Lisle's daughter.
Neither of these arguments is a substitute for a contemporaneous
record. Can anyone produce a stronger argument in favor of the Lisle
lineage?

Much of the argument against her being Alice Lisle rests on the
supposed marriage date of John Lisle to Lady Alice Beaconsawe being
1636, 11-12 years before the first child of John Hoare and Alice --
making any daughter of John Lisle & Lady Alice too young to have
children at that time. The problem with this argument is threefold:
first, Bridget Lisle was born in 1632, 4+ years before the suggested
marriage date; two, 4 children of John Lisle & Lady Alice (including
young Alice) were christened by 1636; and finally, records indicate
the Lisle's had 12 children by early 1648, translating into a 12
children in 12 years if we use 1636 as the marriage year - bordering
on the impossible. All of this would indicate that John Lisle & Lady
Alice were married before 1636 and that their daughter Alice was born
no later than 1632.

One more consideration - John Lisle was married to Elizabeth Hobart
until her early death in March 1633. I suppose that leaves open the
possibility that Alice, if she was John Lisle's daughter, was born to
Elizabeth Hobart.

Would welcome your input.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 09 mar 2005 13:11:12

In message of 9 Mar, nedhawley@gmail.com (Ned Hawley) wrote:

I'm looking for clarification on the parents of Alice -- (Lisle?
Lyle?), wife of John Hoar(e) and residents of Scituate & Concord, MA
in the mid-late 17th Century. Alice is considered the possible
daughter of John Lord Lisle, Hampshire England, a descendant of the
royal family.

He was only a Lord in Cromwell's Other House. He is classified as a
regicide and almost certainly that is why he was murdered.

This subject has been debated here before, so let me try to extend the
research by challenging arguments on both sides of the matter ...

Much of the argument in favor of her being John Lord Lisle's daughter
rests on the marriage of John Hoare's brother Leonard to Bridget
Lisle, his daughter with Alice B., and the several non-contemporary
sources that claim that John Hoare married John Lisle's daughter.
Neither of these arguments is a substitute for a contemporaneous
record. Can anyone produce a stronger argument in favor of the Lisle
lineage?

Much of the argument against her being Alice Lisle rests on the
supposed marriage date of John Lisle to Lady Alice Beaconsawe being
1636, 11-12 years before the first child of John Hoare and Alice --
making any daughter of John Lisle & Lady Alice too young to have
children at that time. The problem with this argument is threefold:
first, Bridget Lisle was born in 1632, 4+ years before the suggested
marriage date; two, 4 children of John Lisle & Lady Alice (including
young Alice) were christened by 1636; and finally, records indicate
the Lisle's had 12 children by early 1648, translating into a 12
children in 12 years if we use 1636 as the marriage year - bordering
on the impossible. All of this would indicate that John Lisle & Lady
Alice were married before 1636 and that their daughter Alice was born
no later than 1632.

One more consideration - John Lisle was married to Elizabeth Hobart
until her early death in March 1633. I suppose that leaves open the
possibility that Alice, if she was John Lisle's daughter, was born to
Elizabeth Hobart.

Would welcome your input.

The British Dictionary of National Biography has articles on John Lisle
(pronounced, I have been firmly told by a descendant of his forbears,
'Lyle), Leonard Hoar and Alice Lisle née Beconshaw. I do not have
access to the new version but the old has this in Alice's article from
1892:

"The attainder was reversed by a private act of parliament in 1689 at
the request of Mrs. Lisle's two married daughters, Triphena Lloyd and
Bridget Usher, on the ground that ‘the verdict was injuriously
extorted and procured by the menaces and violences and other illegal
practices’ of Jeffreys. The daughter Triphena Lloyd married, at a
later date, a second husband named Grove, and her daughter became the
wife of Lord James Russell, fifth son of William Russell, first duke
of Bedford. Bridget Lisle also married twice; her first husband being
Leonard Hoar [q.v.], president of Harvard University, and her second
Hezekiah Usher of Boston, Massachusetts; a daughter, Bridget Hoar,
married the Rev. Thomas Cotton (Notes and Queries, 2nd ser. xii. 99,
3rd ser. iv. 159)."

The words in this indicate that Triphena and Bridget were Alice's only
married daughters. I have not found any mention that Alice
Lisle née Beconshaw had a a daughter called Alice, though I have not
studied this as my prime interest is in Alice B's younger sister.

It must be worth while locating the 2nd Edition of the DNB and following
up the sources they give.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 mar 2005 15:49:38

The new DNB says that John Lisle "had at least three daughters" but
doesn't name them. Alice's entry gives her the two daughters as in
Tim's post. John Lisle is stated to have married his first wife in
February 1632 (the DNB tends to use new-style dating, suggesting this
means 1631/2; but this is not always the case!) and she died in
childbirth in 1633 (no more detailed date given). So these taken
together seem to imply that there was a daughter by the first marriage,
presumably of the birth when the mother died. But if Bridget was indeed
born in 1632 then there is some anomaly somewhere! The second marriage
is still given as 1636, no exact date.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 09 mar 2005 17:18:53

In message of 9 Mar, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

The new DNB says that John Lisle "had at least three daughters" but
doesn't name them. Alice's entry gives her the two daughters as in
Tim's post.

I've seen six daughters reported but no clear reference.

John Lisle is stated to have married his first wife in February 1632
(the DNB tends to use new-style dating, suggesting this means 1631/2;
but this is not always the case!) and she died in childbirth in 1633 (no
more detailed date given). So these taken together seem to imply that
there was a daughter by the first marriage, presumably of the birth
when the mother died.

The Hants visitations of 1530, 1675 and 1622-34 show that John Lisley m.
"Elizebeth d. of Sr Henery Hobert knt and Baronett lord Cheeffe Justice
of the Common pleas ob. 15 of March 1633" and that they had one son
"William Lisley dyed young".

But if Bridget was indeed born in 1632 then there is some anomaly
somewhere! The second marriage is still given as 1636, no exact date.

CP V, 622 (Appendix G) gives the date as 27th Oct 1636 at Ellingham,
Hants (or Southants as it was then).

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mar 2005 18:10:02

Ned,
I have my doubts about the existence of Alice Lisle as a daughter of
John Lisle and Alicia Beconshaw, but I am certainly not an expert on
the subject.

The problem with this argument is threefold:
first, Bridget Lisle was born in 1632, 4+ years before the suggested
marriage date

I have seen the claim that she was born about 1632 which I doubt. If
you have any documentation for that date, please share it. If she were
born in 1632, she would have given birth to her only two children at
age 38 and 41, and lived until 91. I more inclined to believe that she
is the Bridget (dau of John and Alicia) christened in Putney on 29 Sep
1645, a period when John Lisle was frequently in London.

two, 4 children of John Lisle & Lady Alice (including
young Alice) were christened by 1636

Again if you have actual christening records, I would love to see them.

finally, records indicate
the Lisle's had 12 children by early 1648, translating into a 12
children in 12 years if we use 1636 as the marriage year - bordering
on the impossible.

Which children are born before 1648? Alicia Beconshaw was born about
1614 according to DNB, which is consistent wit her age at execution.
The date could be later but certainly not earlier. Her will dated 1682
(proved 1689) mentions a daughter Anne under 21 (born after 1661?).
There is no mention of a daughter Alice.

The will of Alice Lisle as transcribed in NEHGS Vol. 39 p.65 1885:


ALICIA LISLE of Moyles Court in the County of Southampton, widow, 9
June, 1682, with codicil of same date, proved 11November, 1689. To the
poor of the parish of Ellingham two pounds within one year after my
decease. I have settled upon Thomas Tipping of Wheatfield in the
County of Oxford, Esq. and Christopher Warman of Milborne Weekes in the
County of Somerset, gentleman, their heirs and assigns, the reversion
and inheritance of the moiety of the manor of Moyles Court, alias
Rockford Moyles and over-Burgatt and several other manors, lands,
tenements and hereditaments in the said County of Southampton and in
the County of Dorset and elsewhere, mentioned in an indenture
tripartite, dated 19 Feb. 1678, to be conveyed to William Tipping,
Esq., for five hundred years, who hath since conveyed and assigned over
his interest, &c. to the said Thomas Tipping and Christopher Warman;
which said conveyance is in trust for the payment of certain debts in a
schedule thereunto annexed, &c. &c. The overplus (after payment of
such debts) to my worthy friends, the said William Tipping and Mrs.
Frances Tipping his sister, Richard Lloyd, citizen and linen-draper of
London, and Triphena his wife, to hold forever upon this especial
trust, &c. to discharge my funeral expenses and pay debts, &c, and to
pay unto my daughter Anne twelve hundred pounds at the age of one and
twenty years or day of marriage, to pay unto my grandaughter -------
Hore, daughter of my daughter Bridgett, now in New England, the sum of
one hundred pounds at age one and twenty or day of marriage, to pay
unto my daughter Mary an annuity or yearly of six pounds during her
natural life, but if said daughter Mary marry against their consent
said annuity shall cease, to pay to daughter Mabella Lisle an annuity
of forty pounds (under same conditions). The residue to be distributed
among my daughters' children as they (the trustees) shall think fit.
To cousin Judah Rie ten pounds within two years after my decease. To
William Carpenter, my servant, thirty pounds (in two years). In the
codicil she bequeaths to daughter Margaret, now the wife of Mr.
Whitaker, seventy pounds (in two years). Witnesses Anne Tipping,
William Withrington, John Swan and Abiah Browne.
Ent. 159


Even if there were such a daughter Alice born bef 1632 how would she
have married John Hoar. He immigrated from England about 1640 with his
mother. The Hoars were from Gloucestershire. He was bearing arms in
Scituate by 1643. How would he have met a daughter of John Lisle and
married her. His brother Leonard graduated from Harvard in 1650 and
then went to England in 1653 where he became involved with at least one
regicide. He preached two Sermons at the death of Sir Henry Mildmay's
wife. So it seems that the Hoars and the Lisles don't become connected
until the end of the 1650's at the earliest by which time John Hoar and
his wife Alice have already had their children. I think you might have
better luck with the identity of Alice if you look into the families
that were associated with the Hoars, the Quincys, Hincksmans and
possibly the Sewalls.

Good Luck,

Fred Chalfant

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mar 2005 17:22:49

fchal@charm.net wrote:
Ned,
I have my doubts about the existence of Alice Lisle as a daughter of

John Lisle and Alicia Beconshaw, but I am certainly not an expert on
the subject.

The problem with this argument is threefold:
first, Bridget Lisle was born in 1632, 4+ years before the
suggested
marriage date

I have seen the claim that she was born about 1632 which I doubt. If

you have any documentation for that date, please share it. If she
were
born in 1632, she would have given birth to her only two children at
age 38 and 41, and lived until 91. I more inclined to believe that
she
is the Bridget (dau of John and Alicia) christened in Putney on 29
Sep
1645, a period when John Lisle was frequently in London.

two, 4 children of John Lisle & Lady Alice (including
young Alice) were christened by 1636

Again if you have actual christening records, I would love to see
them.

finally, records indicate
the Lisle's had 12 children by early 1648, translating into a 12
children in 12 years if we use 1636 as the marriage year -
bordering
on the impossible.

Which children are born before 1648? Alicia Beconshaw was born about
1614 according to DNB, which is consistent wit her age at execution.
The date could be later but certainly not earlier. Her will dated
1682
(proved 1689) mentions a daughter Anne under 21 (born after 1661?).
There is no mention of a daughter Alice.

The will of Alice Lisle as transcribed in NEHGS Vol. 39 p.65 1885:


ALICIA LISLE of Moyles Court in the County of Southampton, widow, 9
June, 1682, with codicil of same date, proved 11November, 1689. To
the
poor of the parish of Ellingham two pounds within one year after my
decease. I have settled upon Thomas Tipping of Wheatfield in the
County of Oxford, Esq. and Christopher Warman of Milborne Weekes in
the
County of Somerset, gentleman, their heirs and assigns, the reversion

and inheritance of the moiety of the manor of Moyles Court, alias
Rockford Moyles and over-Burgatt and several other manors, lands,
tenements and hereditaments in the said County of Southampton and in
the County of Dorset and elsewhere, mentioned in an indenture
tripartite, dated 19 Feb. 1678, to be conveyed to William Tipping,
Esq., for five hundred years, who hath since conveyed and assigned
over
his interest, &c. to the said Thomas Tipping and Christopher Warman;
which said conveyance is in trust for the payment of certain debts in
a
schedule thereunto annexed, &c. &c. The overplus (after payment of
such debts) to my worthy friends, the said William Tipping and Mrs.
Frances Tipping his sister, Richard Lloyd, citizen and linen-draper
of
London, and Triphena his wife, to hold forever upon this especial
trust, &c. to discharge my funeral expenses and pay debts, &c, and to

pay unto my daughter Anne twelve hundred pounds at the age of one and

twenty years or day of marriage, to pay unto my grandaughter -------
Hore, daughter of my daughter Bridgett, now in New England, the sum
of
one hundred pounds at age one and twenty or day of marriage, to pay
unto my daughter Mary an annuity or yearly of six pounds during her
natural life, but if said daughter Mary marry against their consent
said annuity shall cease, to pay to daughter Mabella Lisle an annuity

of forty pounds (under same conditions). The residue to be
distributed
among my daughters' children as they (the trustees) shall think fit.

To cousin Judah Rie ten pounds within two years after my decease. To

William Carpenter, my servant, thirty pounds (in two years). In the
codicil she bequeaths to daughter Margaret, now the wife of Mr.
Whitaker, seventy pounds (in two years). Witnesses Anne Tipping,
William Withrington, John Swan and Abiah Browne.
Ent. 159


[snip]

Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would appear
that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.


Doug Smith

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 11 mar 2005 18:22:41

Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would appear
that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.

No, remember that the daughter Bridget in New England had married a Mr.
Hoar and had a daughter by him.

This daughter, Bridget (Hoar) Cotton, may have American descendants.
See NEHGR, 39:64, where her son, Leonard Cotton, is shown as "eldest
son, settled in America," and himself the father of "Colonel Cotton, an
American Loyalist." Would Leonard Cotton be a 'new' immigrant for
Gary's lists?

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 11 mar 2005 19:46:31

NEHGR, 4:92:

No. 1---Leonard Cotton, Gentlemen [sic], son of Reverend Thomas Cotton,
married Alicia [sic] Lisle, the daughter of Lord John Lisle [sic],
aforesaid. His son

No. 2---Leonard Cotton, Jr., married Mary Freeze, and settled in
Newburyport, Mass., whence, in the time of the Indian Wars, he removed
to Virginia with the younger portion of his family. The posterity of
his sons Jacob, Benjamin and James, are still found in Virginia and
North Carolina."
His elders sons,
No. 3---"Thomas of Brunswick and
No. 4--John of Litchfield lived and died in Maine.
No. 4--John, born 1727, died 1824, left no sons.
No. 3---Thomas Cotton, of Brunswick, married the widow of Isaac
Hinckley, who was killed by the Indians, and whose maiden name was
Smith, of York [Maine].
Children.
No. 1---Mary, married Stephen Pennel of Topsham.
No. 2---Martha, married Joel Thompson, Esq., of Lewiston.
No. 3---Sarah, died young.
No. 4---Ruth, died young.
No. 5---Isaac married Elizabeth Sylvester; Sons Isaac, Sylvester,
Thomas.

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mar 2005 19:52:36

ic

John Hoar is alleged to have been brother of the Leonard Hoar who
became President of Harvard. Leonard's wife is alleged to have been
Bridget Lisle.

Doug

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 11 mar 2005 19:54:18

The extracted IGI is showing the baptism, 8 Jan. 1725, at Rowley,
Massachusetts, of "Leonard Lisle Cotton," son of Leonard and Hannah
Cotton (batch # C500351).

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 11 mar 2005 20:40:14

Also, note the baptisms of children named "Leonard Hoar Cotton" and
"Alicia Cotton" at Brunswick and Bowdoin, Maine, in the 1770s (batches
C502961 and C502941).

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 11 mar 2005 21:34:41

The chart in NEHGR 39:64 shows that Rev. Thomas Cotton who married
Bridget Hoare was son of "William Cotton of Nether Denby parish of
Peniston, gen., an iron master," by his wife Eleanor Fownes. These
people are treated in the new OBNB, under "Cotton family (per.
c.1650-1802), ironmasters," and "Spencer family (per. c.1647-1765),
ironmasters." (The mother of Eleanor [Fownes] Cotton was a Spencer.)

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mar 2005 19:10:45

alden@mindspring.com wrote:

Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would appear
that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.


Doug Smith

That is not the case for three obvious reasons.

1. Bridget [Lisle] Hoar's two children were named Bridget and
Tryphena(d.y.) Bridget is known to have married Rev. Thomas Cotton
2. Bridget's children were born in the 1670's and Alice wife of John
Hoar was bearing children about 1650 (or earlier) and thus must have
been born before about 1630.
3. Besides the impossibilty of the dates he would have been marrying
his niece.

Fred

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mar 2005 19:12:42

This one piece in NEHGR has probably caused the most confusion for the
Cotton family. It has some valid information information, but also
some egregious errors.Things come into focus if one realizes that #1
and # 2 are the same person.

Leonard Cotton (b. abt 1690 son of Rev Thomas Cotton and Bridget Hoar)
married Hanna ------ (note this is the only name for his spouse as
listed in Hampton Falls and Newbury V.R. the idea. The idea that he
married a daughter of John Lisle is absurd, see Savage Vol 2.
pp431-432). Whether he married secondly a Mary Freeze is up in the air.
The evidence is lacking. Apparently Hannah was the mother of all of his
children:

1. Thomas Cotton (b. Mar 15, 1724 Hampton Falls, New Hampshire d. Dec
29, 1781 Lewiston, Maine) m. Nov 5, 1757 Brunswick, Maine, Agnes Smith
(widow of Isaac Hinckley) NOTE: His 2Ggrandson was Joseph Potter
Cotton, Assistant Secretary of State and close confidant of Herbert
Hoover.

2. Leonard Lisle Cotton bap. Jul 3, 1726, Newbury, Massachusetts,
married June 10, 1749, Rochester, Massachusetts, Nema Coombs.

3. John Cotton bap. Dec 24, 1727, Manchester, Massachsetts. He was the
Loyalist.

4. Bridgert Hannah Cotton bap. May 2, 1731, Ipswich Massachusetts, m.
Sep 17, 1747, Brunswick, Maine, Samuel Coombs.

5. Benjamin Cotton bap. Apr 2, 1732, Ipswich, Massachusetts, apparently
died young.

6. Jacob Cotton bap. Apr 2, 1732, Ipswich, Massachusetts

7. Benjamin Cotton bap. Sept.1, 1734, Ipswich, Massachusetts

8. Dorothy Cotton b. Dec. 18, 1736, Newbury, Massachusetts

9. James Cotton b. Aug. 3, 1739, Newbury, Massachusetts

10. Mary Cotton bap. Oct. 31, 1742 Newbury, Massachusetts

11. Alicia Cotton bap Feb. 17, 1744-5 Newbury, Massachusetts

It might have been more helpful if you had quoted all of the article in
NEHGR Vol 4 p92 1850

Apparently this descent was compiled by an unnamed British officier in
Maine in 1766 and presented to John Cotton. As there is no original we
can't even determine whether the account was incorrect or whether it
was the trancription that was wrong or even if it had been trancribed
more than once.

Fred

starbuck95 wrote:
NEHGR, 4:92:

No. 1---Leonard Cotton, Gentlemen [sic], son of Reverend Thomas
Cotton,
married Alicia [sic] Lisle, the daughter of Lord John Lisle [sic],
aforesaid. His son

No. 2---Leonard Cotton, Jr., married Mary Freeze, and settled in
Newburyport, Mass., whence, in the time of the Indian Wars, he
removed
to Virginia with the younger portion of his family. The posterity of
his sons Jacob, Benjamin and James, are still found in Virginia and
North Carolina."
His elders sons,
No. 3---"Thomas of Brunswick and
No. 4--John of Litchfield lived and died in Maine.
No. 4--John, born 1727, died 1824, left no sons.
No. 3---Thomas Cotton, of Brunswick, married the widow of Isaac
Hinckley, who was killed by the Indians, and whose maiden name was
Smith, of York [Maine].
Children.
No. 1---Mary, married Stephen Pennel of Topsham.
No. 2---Martha, married Joel Thompson, Esq., of Lewiston.
No. 3---Sarah, died young.
No. 4---Ruth, died young.
No. 5---Isaac married Elizabeth Sylvester; Sons Isaac,
Sylvester,
Thomas.

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mar 2005 19:29:36

Not necessary because Bridget Lisle wife of Leonard Hoar is already in
RD 600

starbuck95 wrote:
This daughter, Bridget (Hoar) Cotton, may have American descendants.
See NEHGR, 39:64, where her son, Leonard Cotton, is shown as "eldest
son, settled in America," and himself the father of "Colonel Cotton,
an
American Loyalist." Would Leonard Cotton be a 'new' immigrant for
Gary's lists?

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 12 mar 2005 20:49:02

This one piece in NEHGR has probably caused the most confusion for
the Cotton family. It has some valid information information, but also

some egregious errors. Things come into focus if one realizes that #1
and # 2 are the same person.

I don't find the errors all that 'egregious,' just typical for a
document written much after the event (we should try to be at least a
little sophisticated in our analyses).

It might have been more helpful if you had quoted all of the article
in NEHGR Vol 4 p92 1850.


No need to get snippy. I don't think I left out anything of much
value.

You might have said 'thank you' for my pointing out some new ancestors
for you in the _Oxford Dictionary of National Biography_ accounts of
the Cotton and Spencer families!

starbuck95

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 12 mar 2005 21:19:09

Not necessary because Bridget Lisle wife of Leonard Hoar is already
in RD 600.


Actually, if (as claimed in NEHGR 39:64) Rev. Thomas Cotton was a
connection of the Cottons of Combermere, Leonard Cotton might be a
"new" immigrant of royal descent. (Not to mention new lines that might
come in through the Spencers, who were 'gentlemen' [see aforementioned
_ODNB_]).

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mar 2005 22:22:58

My apologies. I certainly didn't mean to be snippy, and I do thank you
for the Cotton information.

I agree with you that there isn't anything of much value that you
didn't quote. I was just concerned that someone who might not have read
the entire entry might not know the origin of it.

Again no offence intended.

Fred

starbuck95 wrote:
This one piece in NEHGR has probably caused the most confusion for
the Cotton family. It has some valid information information, but
also
some egregious errors. Things come into focus if one realizes that #1
and # 2 are the same person.

I don't find the errors all that 'egregious,' just typical for a
document written much after the event (we should try to be at least a
little sophisticated in our analyses).

It might have been more helpful if you had quoted all of the
article
in NEHGR Vol 4 p92 1850.

No need to get snippy. I don't think I left out anything of much
value.

You might have said 'thank you' for my pointing out some new
ancestors
for you in the _Oxford Dictionary of National Biography_ accounts of
the Cotton and Spencer families!

Gjest

Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mar 2005 14:40:23

fchal@charm.net wrote:
alden@mindspring.com wrote:

Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would
appear
that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.


Doug Smith

That is not the case for three obvious reasons.

1. Bridget [Lisle] Hoar's two children were named Bridget and
Tryphena(d.y.) Bridget is known to have married Rev. Thomas Cotton
2. Bridget's children were born in the 1670's and Alice wife of John
Hoar was bearing children about 1650 (or earlier) and thus must have
been born before about 1630.
3. Besides the impossibilty of the dates he would have been marrying
his niece.

Fred

Yes,

I have looked into this family now. See CP V: 622 and Vistation of
Hants.

It would appears that Sir John Lisle had a first wife named Elizabeth
Hobart. They were married abt Feb 1631/2 with one son, William.
Elizabeth died 15 Mar 1633. Sir John married 2nd 23 Oct 1636 Alice
Beconshaw with six daughters, Bridget, Triphena, Margaret, Anne, Mary
and Mabel. I see no Alice by either marriage.

I have not found any evidence that the Alice married to John Hoar was a
Lisle.

Doug Smith

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»