Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Graeme Wall
Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from Cadwaldr ap
Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and Adeliza
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and Adeliza
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
A detailed discussion of the Welsh chronicles is present in "The
Eleventh-Century Rulers of Wales: Their Political and Genealogical Relationships, by
K.L. Maund. It is part II of a publication entitled: Ireland, Wales, and
England In The Eleventh Century, published The Boydell Press, 1991. ISBN 0 85115
5332. This may be a helpful reference.
Eleventh-Century Rulers of Wales: Their Political and Genealogical Relationships, by
K.L. Maund. It is part II of a publication entitled: Ireland, Wales, and
England In The Eleventh Century, published The Boydell Press, 1991. ISBN 0 85115
5332. This may be a helpful reference.
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1f1.371181ee.2f5f3b1f@aol.com>
Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:
Many thanks, I'll be pestering the library first thing tomorrow.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:
A detailed discussion of the Welsh chronicles is present in "The
Eleventh-Century Rulers of Wales: Their Political and Genealogical
Relationships, by K.L. Maund. It is part II of a publication entitled:
Ireland, Wales, and England In The Eleventh Century, published The
Boydell Press, 1991. ISBN 0 85115 5332. This may be a helpful
reference.
Many thanks, I'll be pestering the library first thing tomorrow.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Graeme Wall wrote:
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd. (They had a
dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo Williams of
Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another wife,
but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from
Cadwaldr ap
Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and
Adeliza
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd. (They had a
dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo Williams of
Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another wife,
but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
There is a pedigree of the Dynasty of Gwynedd and other Welsh royal lines in
Brewer's "British Royalty". It shows the son of Calwaldr and Alice de Clare
as Cadfan (whether this is Welsh for Richard, I don't know). I'm afraid I
can't vouch for the authenticity of Brewer's.
Rose
Brewer's "British Royalty". It shows the son of Calwaldr and Alice de Clare
as Cadfan (whether this is Welsh for Richard, I don't know). I'm afraid I
can't vouch for the authenticity of Brewer's.
Rose
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Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Dear Rose et als,
I think You`ll find Cadfan is a traditional Welsh
name. The History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmonth gives a
Cadvan as father of the Cadwallender who is said to have died in 689 and was
Cadwalendyr ab Gruffydd was possibly paying tribute to this traditional ancestor
of the House of Gwynedd.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I think You`ll find Cadfan is a traditional Welsh
name. The History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmonth gives a
Cadvan as father of the Cadwallender who is said to have died in 689 and was
Cadwalendyr ab Gruffydd was possibly paying tribute to this traditional ancestor
of the House of Gwynedd.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
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Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
James Cummings wrote: "I think You`ll find Cadfan is a traditional Welsh name. The History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmonth gives a Cadvan as father of the Cadwallender who is said to have died in 689 and was Cadwalendyr ab Gruffydd was possibly paying tribute to this traditional ancestor of the House of Gwynedd."
Shouldn't this be prefaced by saying that scholars have almost universally excoriated Geoffrey as an inventer of ridiculous fictions?
Will Johnson
Shouldn't this be prefaced by saying that scholars have almost universally excoriated Geoffrey as an inventer of ridiculous fictions?
Will Johnson
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Ginny Wagner
RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Will Jhonson said:
<scholars have almost universally excoriated Geoffrey as an inventer of
ridiculous fictions>
in what manner? are the names he uses fictitious, dates erroneous, places
incorrect? was he writing as a PR person for the kings or for the Churhc --
did he have a particular axe to grind? curious minds want to know ...
Ginny Wagner
<scholars have almost universally excoriated Geoffrey as an inventer of
ridiculous fictions>
in what manner? are the names he uses fictitious, dates erroneous, places
incorrect? was he writing as a PR person for the kings or for the Churhc --
did he have a particular axe to grind? curious minds want to know ...
Ginny Wagner
-
Gjest
RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Ginny wrote: "in what manner? are the names he uses fictitious, dates erroneous, places incorrect? was he writing as a PR person for the kings or for the Churhc --
did he have a particular axe to grind? curious minds want to know ...
"
All of the above. He invents people, places and facts. He put speeches into the mouths of people who could not possibly say them. He places people as contemporaries who could not have been. He creates mythical "sources" which never existed. He creates pedigrees which have no possibility of ever been close to correct. He gives people names which have no origin in the language of the times they lived.
If half of the things that Geoffrey states were true, we'd find them not only in a work of romantic history but in other sources as well, and yet we don't.
And you don't have to take my word for it, just search google for "Geoffrey of Monmouth"
Of course that's not to say that persons high and low won't continue to wish that the line of ancient British kings was REALLY descendent from Aeneas but it's just ridiculous flim-flam. And Geoffrey knew it.
Will Johnson
did he have a particular axe to grind? curious minds want to know ...
All of the above. He invents people, places and facts. He put speeches into the mouths of people who could not possibly say them. He places people as contemporaries who could not have been. He creates mythical "sources" which never existed. He creates pedigrees which have no possibility of ever been close to correct. He gives people names which have no origin in the language of the times they lived.
If half of the things that Geoffrey states were true, we'd find them not only in a work of romantic history but in other sources as well, and yet we don't.
And you don't have to take my word for it, just search google for "Geoffrey of Monmouth"
Of course that's not to say that persons high and low won't continue to wish that the line of ancient British kings was REALLY descendent from Aeneas but it's just ridiculous flim-flam. And Geoffrey knew it.
Will Johnson
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1110448732.083574.120570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Now I'm really confused. Thanks for that - I think
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from
Cadwaldr ap
Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and
Adeliza
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd. (They had a
dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo Williams of
Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another wife,
but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
Now I'm really confused. Thanks for that - I think
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
norenxaq
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
And you don't have to take my word for it, just search google for "Geoffrey of Monmouth"
Of course that's not to say that persons high and low won't continue to wish that the line of ancient British kings was REALLY descendent from Aeneas but it's just ridiculous flim-flam. And Geoffrey knew it.
Will Johnson
what are you basing that Geoffrey knew this on?
-
Paul K Davis
RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Geoffrey was trying to support an alliance of native British (Welsh) and
Normans, presumably with respect to Anglo Saxons. Generally he did not
invent names, however he moved them around to achieve his goals. He
shifted a sufficient number of names into ancient times to have a
genealogical connection of the British from the Trojans! He apparently
shifted exploit from a number of people to pad King Arthur's career. He
made the Roman emperor Constantine a Briton. Nothing in his book should be
accepted unless a source from before him says the same thing. His fiction
that Britain was never conquered by the Roman Empire, but entered into a
voluntary alliance, helped the reformation out. (Why should British be
subservient to the Roman Pope if Rome never conquered Britain?) I'm tired
of listing his fabrications now, but there are more.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
Normans, presumably with respect to Anglo Saxons. Generally he did not
invent names, however he moved them around to achieve his goals. He
shifted a sufficient number of names into ancient times to have a
genealogical connection of the British from the Trojans! He apparently
shifted exploit from a number of people to pad King Arthur's career. He
made the Roman emperor Constantine a Briton. Nothing in his book should be
accepted unless a source from before him says the same thing. His fiction
that Britain was never conquered by the Roman Empire, but entered into a
voluntary alliance, helped the reformation out. (Why should British be
subservient to the Roman Pope if Rome never conquered Britain?) I'm tired
of listing his fabrications now, but there are more.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
[Original Message]
From: Ginny Wagner <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 3/10/2005 1:43:04 PM
Subject: RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Will Jhonson said:
scholars have almost universally excoriated Geoffrey as an inventer of
ridiculous fictions
in what manner? are the names he uses fictitious, dates erroneous, places
incorrect? was he writing as a PR person for the kings or for the Churhc
--
did he have a particular axe to grind? curious minds want to know ...
Ginny Wagner
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Ah. Thank you. Fantastic. I've just started reading Morse, Truth and
Convention in the Middle Ages, "The claim that historical narratives are
susceptible to literary analysis is not startling in itself; as in the first
chapter, I attempt to give examples which will help identify patterns of
literary manipulation, and elucidate styles of representation and reference,
so that, to give another simple example, 'realism' is not assumed to
guaranee truth, but is perceived as a style."
She's brilliant and I'm plodding through and if I don't have my dictionary
handy I list words to look up later. At any rate, the comments re Geoffrey
seemed to me apropos to what I'd just been reading earlier today so wondered
how/when/why historians would fabricate (as she said they did) and this
seemed a very good opportunity to find out some specifics. I very much
appreciate everyone's help on this.
Ginny Wagner
Convention in the Middle Ages, "The claim that historical narratives are
susceptible to literary analysis is not startling in itself; as in the first
chapter, I attempt to give examples which will help identify patterns of
literary manipulation, and elucidate styles of representation and reference,
so that, to give another simple example, 'realism' is not assumed to
guaranee truth, but is perceived as a style."
She's brilliant and I'm plodding through and if I don't have my dictionary
handy I list words to look up later. At any rate, the comments re Geoffrey
seemed to me apropos to what I'd just been reading earlier today so wondered
how/when/why historians would fabricate (as she said they did) and this
seemed a very good opportunity to find out some specifics. I very much
appreciate everyone's help on this.
Ginny Wagner
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1ac.33c21f31.2f61cfad@aol.com>
Maytree4@aol.com wrote:
Not as far as I'm aware, but nothing stops him having more than one son. On
the other hand, having adopted Norman ways along with his wife, would he have
used both Welsh and Norman names for his children?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
Maytree4@aol.com wrote:
There is a pedigree of the Dynasty of Gwynedd and other Welsh royal lines
in Brewer's "British Royalty". It shows the son of Calwaldr and Alice de
Clare as Cadfan (whether this is Welsh for Richard, I don't know).
Not as far as I'm aware, but nothing stops him having more than one son. On
the other hand, having adopted Norman ways along with his wife, would he have
used both Welsh and Norman names for his children?
I'm afraid I can't vouch for the authenticity of Brewer's.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1110448732.083574.120570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I think I have sorted this bit out, the original source has muddled a couple
of generations: Cadwaladr married Alice de Clare, daughter of Richard de
Clare and Alice, daughter of Randal de Meschines. Richard was the son of
Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont.
That fits with my premise above.
Maps to Gwyn ap Eigon (not Einon, my error) ap Collwyn, hopefully, can anyone
confirm?
Tudur would be the brother of Goronwy, ancestor of Owen Tudor?
Would Adles be a variation on Adeliza?
Same Adles with two husbands perhaps? Or two daughters of the same name,
having different mothers?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and
Adeliza
I think I have sorted this bit out, the original source has muddled a couple
of generations: Cadwaladr married Alice de Clare, daughter of Richard de
Clare and Alice, daughter of Randal de Meschines. Richard was the son of
Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont.
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
That fits with my premise above.
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd.
Maps to Gwyn ap Eigon (not Einon, my error) ap Collwyn, hopefully, can anyone
confirm?
(They had a dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo Williams of
Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
Tudur would be the brother of Goronwy, ancestor of Owen Tudor?
Would Adles be a variation on Adeliza?
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another wife,
but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
Same Adles with two husbands perhaps? Or two daughters of the same name,
having different mothers?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
RE: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
"Generally he did not invent names, however he moved them around to achieve his goals. He shifted a sufficient number of names into ancient times to have a genealogical connection of the British from the Trojans! "
He certainly did invent the names connecting Aeneas to "King Leir" if such a person ever existed. And you have to admit that's a good chunk of names.
Will
He certainly did invent the names connecting Aeneas to "King Leir" if such a person ever existed. And you have to admit that's a good chunk of names.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Graeme Wall wrote:
Although the new DNB in fact supports your original posting: "by 1153
Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite possibly to be identified
with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare (d.1136)", i.e. dau. of Ranulf
le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not Adeliza). As this entry makes
clear that it is speculation, some actual proof would be needed; is
there any either way?
Gwyn Ddistain ab Ednywain ab Eginir ap Gollwyn ap Tangno, as per
Bartrum; certainly the same basic individual intended.
Yes, half-brother; also of Gruffudd, ancestor of Griffith of Wychnor,
et al.
Presumably the Welsh version of the name, yes
Anything is possible! It does seem the two Richards should be the same,
but presumably Bartrum was attempting to harmonise disparate sources,
and where there was ambiguity about an exact match chose to show the
separate variants.
In message <1110448732.083574.120570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and
Adeliza
I think I have sorted this bit out, the original source has muddled a
couple
of generations: Cadwaladr married Alice de Clare, daughter of
Richard de
Clare and Alice, daughter of Randal de Meschines. Richard was the
son of
Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont.
Although the new DNB in fact supports your original posting: "by 1153
Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite possibly to be identified
with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare (d.1136)", i.e. dau. of Ranulf
le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not Adeliza). As this entry makes
clear that it is speculation, some actual proof would be needed; is
there any either way?
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
That fits with my premise above.
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd.
Maps to Gwyn ap Eigon (not Einon, my error) ap Collwyn, hopefully,
can anyone
confirm?
Gwyn Ddistain ab Ednywain ab Eginir ap Gollwyn ap Tangno, as per
Bartrum; certainly the same basic individual intended.
(They had a dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo
Williams of
Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
Tudur would be the brother of Goronwy, ancestor of Owen Tudor?
Yes, half-brother; also of Gruffudd, ancestor of Griffith of Wychnor,
et al.
Would Adles be a variation on Adeliza?
Presumably the Welsh version of the name, yes
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another
wife,
but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
Same Adles with two husbands perhaps? Or two daughters of the same
name,
having different mothers?
Anything is possible! It does seem the two Richards should be the same,
but presumably Bartrum was attempting to harmonise disparate sources,
and where there was ambiguity about an exact match chose to show the
separate variants.
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1110579353.189379.60510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I was hoping you'd tell me
Seriously, I was sorting out what the
original source (which I only have a rather poor extract of) was trying to
say. I don't actually know what the actual source was, my extract is at
third hand which is why I am trying it out on the panel.
Haven't had much chance to look at the new DNB yet, our libraries have a
subscription to the on-line version but their internet connection keeps
playing up and refusing me access. Mind you I read in one of the heavy
Sunday papers that there are serious doubts about the standard of accuracy of
many of the entries.
Well at least something makes sense
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Thanks
If it was easy it wouldn't be fun.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
In message <1110448732.083574.120570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent from
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines and
Adeliza
I think I have sorted this bit out, the original source has muddled a
couple of generations: Cadwaladr married Alice de Clare, daughter of
Richard de Clare and Alice, daughter of Randal de Meschines. Richard was
the son of Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont.
Although the new DNB in fact supports your original posting: "by 1153
Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite possibly to be identified
with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare (d.1136)", i.e. dau. of Ranulf
le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not Adeliza). As this entry makes
clear that it is speculation, some actual proof would be needed; is
there any either way?
I was hoping you'd tell me
original source (which I only have a rather poor extract of) was trying to
say. I don't actually know what the actual source was, my extract is at
third hand which is why I am trying it out on the panel.
Haven't had much chance to look at the new DNB yet, our libraries have a
subscription to the on-line version but their internet connection keeps
playing up and refusing me access. Mind you I read in one of the heavy
Sunday papers that there are serious doubts about the standard of accuracy of
many of the entries.
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
That fits with my premise above.
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd.
Maps to Gwyn ap Eigon (not Einon, my error) ap Collwyn, hopefully,
can anyone confirm?
Gwyn Ddistain ab Ednywain ab Eginir ap Gollwyn ap Tangno, as per
Bartrum; certainly the same basic individual intended.
Well at least something makes sense
(They had a dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo
Williams of Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
Tudur would be the brother of Goronwy, ancestor of Owen Tudor?
Yes, half-brother; also of Gruffudd, ancestor of Griffith of Wychnor,
et al.
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Would Adles be a variation on Adeliza?
Presumably the Welsh version of the name, yes
Thanks
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another
wife, but not all of his children are specified as being by her).
Same Adles with two husbands perhaps? Or two daughters of the same
name, having different mothers?
Anything is possible! It does seem the two Richards should be the same,
but presumably Bartrum was attempting to harmonise disparate sources,
and where there was ambiguity about an exact match chose to show the
separate variants.
If it was easy it wouldn't be fun.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote: "Although the new DNB in fact supports your original posting: "by 1153 Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite possibly to be identified with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare (d.1136)", i.e. dau. of Ranulf le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not Adeliza). As this entry makes clear that it is speculation, some actual proof would be needed; is there any either way?"
Did not this Alice of Meschines marry to Richard of Condet, Lord of Thorngate Castle? The marriage would have taken place after 15 Apr 1136 and yet he died abt 1141. So why would she be called here Alice de Clare and not something like Alice de Condet or Alice de Thorngate or whatever.
If we presume that she went back to a previous way of being referred to, or if something is referring to her in that way without her actually being referred to contemporaneously in that way, then there appears to be another candidate.
Adeliza de Clare who married Aubrey de Vere of Oxford. He died 11 May 1141 and she not until 1163 and so presumably would be available to be married to Cadwaladr in that period. No?
Will Johnson
Did not this Alice of Meschines marry to Richard of Condet, Lord of Thorngate Castle? The marriage would have taken place after 15 Apr 1136 and yet he died abt 1141. So why would she be called here Alice de Clare and not something like Alice de Condet or Alice de Thorngate or whatever.
If we presume that she went back to a previous way of being referred to, or if something is referring to her in that way without her actually being referred to contemporaneously in that way, then there appears to be another candidate.
Adeliza de Clare who married Aubrey de Vere of Oxford. He died 11 May 1141 and she not until 1163 and so presumably would be available to be married to Cadwaladr in that period. No?
Will Johnson
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <445ADCA5.18460D62.007FA2F6@aol.com>
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
My theory is that this woman was the aunt of the one who married Cadwaladr
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote: "Although the new DNB in fact supports
your original posting: "by 1153 Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite
possibly to be identified with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare
(d.1136)", i.e. dau. of Ranulf le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not
Adeliza). As this entry makes clear that it is speculation, some actual
proof would be needed; is there any either way?"
Did not this Alice of Meschines marry to Richard of Condet, Lord of
Thorngate Castle? The marriage would have taken place after 15 Apr 1136
and yet he died abt 1141. So why would she be called here Alice de Clare
and not something like Alice de Condet or Alice de Thorngate or whatever.
If we presume that she went back to a previous way of being referred to, or
if something is referring to her in that way without her actually being
referred to contemporaneously in that way, then there appears to be another
candidate.
Adeliza de Clare who married Aubrey de Vere of Oxford. He died 11 May 1141
and she not until 1163 and so presumably would be available to be married
to Cadwaladr in that period. No?
My theory is that this woman was the aunt of the one who married Cadwaladr
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Graeme Wall wrote:
I'm only relaying secondary (or further) sources myself, just in case
anything can be gathered from comparisons... Will Johnson's theory is
worth bearing in mind too.
This case is a fair example of one criticism that's been levelled,
namely the absence of communication between contributors covering
overlapping subjects. There is a lack of cross-referencing in places
where it would be helpful, and entries often don't support statements
made in others. The old version seemed to be more informative about
genealogical connections generally (although out of date now with many
of them). And as other postings have shown, there are of course
mistakes. No doubt online updates will iron out all these problems. I
had an access problem myself and lost a month while it was corrected. I
don't think I'll renew for now...
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
But not so much fun if the answers remain elusive, and the dotted lines
remain!
In message <1110579353.189379.60510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
In message
1110448732.083574.120570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
I have been sent a family tree that claims to be a descent
from
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd, brother of Owain Gwynedd (1109 - 1169)
It goes:
Cadwaldr ap Gryffydd = Alice, daughter of Randal de Mechines
and
Adeliza
I think I have sorted this bit out, the original source has
muddled a
couple of generations: Cadwaladr married Alice de Clare,
daughter of
Richard de Clare and Alice, daughter of Randal de Meschines.
Richard was
the son of Gilbert de Clare and Adeliza de Clermont.
Although the new DNB in fact supports your original posting: "by
1153
Cadwaladr had married Aliz de Clare, quite possibly to be
identified
with Adeliza, widow of Richard de Clare (d.1136)", i.e. dau. of
Ranulf
le Meschin (but, whose wife was Lucy, not Adeliza). As this entry
makes
clear that it is speculation, some actual proof would be needed; is
there any either way?
I was hoping you'd tell meSeriously, I was sorting out what the
original source (which I only have a rather poor extract of) was
trying to
say. I don't actually know what the actual source was, my extract is
at
third hand which is why I am trying it out on the panel.
I'm only relaying secondary (or further) sources myself, just in case
anything can be gathered from comparisons... Will Johnson's theory is
worth bearing in mind too.
Haven't had much chance to look at the new DNB yet, our libraries
have a
subscription to the on-line version but their internet connection
keeps
playing up and refusing me access. Mind you I read in one of the
heavy
Sunday papers that there are serious doubts about the standard of
accuracy of
many of the entries.
This case is a fair example of one criticism that's been levelled,
namely the absence of communication between contributors covering
overlapping subjects. There is a lack of cross-referencing in places
where it would be helpful, and entries often don't support statements
made in others. The old version seemed to be more informative about
genealogical connections generally (although out of date now with many
of them). And as other postings have shown, there are of course
mistakes. No doubt online updates will iron out all these problems. I
had an access problem myself and lost a month while it was corrected. I
don't think I'll renew for now...
Richard ap Cadwaldr = Anes (?) ferch Gwyn ap Einon
Adels (Adeliza?) = Ithel Vychau ap Ithel Lloyd.
Does this make sense to anyone?
FWIW, Bartrum gives a slight variation of this descent, with
two
Richards. The first goes:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by (one of four wives
given)
Adles, dau. Richard Earl of Clare, had
That fits with my premise above.
Richard, who m. Annes ferch Gwyn Ddistain of Eifionydd.
Maps to Gwyn ap Eigon (not Einon, my error) ap Collwyn,
hopefully,
can anyone confirm?
Gwyn Ddistain ab Ednywain ab Eginir ap Gollwyn ap Tangno, as per
Bartrum; certainly the same basic individual intended.
Well at least something makes sense
(They had a dau. Adles, who m. Tudur ab Ednyfed Fychan, a quo
Williams of Cochwillan, Griffith of Penrhyn etc.)
Tudur would be the brother of Goronwy, ancestor of Owen Tudor?
Yes, half-brother; also of Gruffudd, ancestor of Griffith of
Wychnor,
et al.
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
Would Adles be a variation on Adeliza?
Presumably the Welsh version of the name, yes
Thanks
The second is:
Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan d.1172, by unspecified wife had
Richard, who by an unknown wife had
Adles who m. Ithel Fychan ab Ithel Gam (he is not given another
wife, but not all of his children are specified as being by
her).
Same Adles with two husbands perhaps? Or two daughters of the
same
name, having different mothers?
Anything is possible! It does seem the two Richards should be the
same,
but presumably Bartrum was attempting to harmonise disparate
sources,
and where there was ambiguity about an exact match chose to show
the
separate variants.
If it was easy it wouldn't be fun.
But not so much fun if the answers remain elusive, and the dotted lines
remain!
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1110751425.044186.65250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
If they put the updates on-line that will be useful but does't help those who
have forked out for the printed edition.
[snip]
Thanks, that's a lady I have come across before.
[snip]
Very true.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
In message <1110579353.189379.60510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
[snip]
Haven't had much chance to look at the new DNB yet, our libraries
have a subscription to the on-line version but their internet connection
keeps playing up and refusing me access. Mind you I read in one of the
heavy Sunday papers that there are serious doubts about the standard of
accuracy of many of the entries.
This case is a fair example of one criticism that's been levelled,
namely the absence of communication between contributors covering
overlapping subjects. There is a lack of cross-referencing in places
where it would be helpful, and entries often don't support statements
made in others. The old version seemed to be more informative about
genealogical connections generally (although out of date now with many
of them). And as other postings have shown, there are of course
mistakes. No doubt online updates will iron out all these problems. I
had an access problem myself and lost a month while it was corrected. I
don't think I'll renew for now...
If they put the updates on-line that will be useful but does't help those who
have forked out for the printed edition.
[snip]
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
Thanks, that's a lady I have come across before.
[snip]
If it was easy it wouldn't be fun.
But not so much fun if the answers remain elusive, and the dotted lines
remain!
Very true.
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1110751425.044186.65250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Omitted from my previous post:
Not the same Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, mistress (?) of Llywellyn Fawr?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
[snip]
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
Omitted from my previous post:
Not the same Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, mistress (?) of Llywellyn Fawr?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
-
Gjest
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
Graeme Wall wrote:
Nearly! Llywelyn's mistress (not wife, no) was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch
Goch ap Iorwerth ap Cynan ap Llywarch Howlbwrch; but her mother was
indeed apparently Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran. However, Bartrum
shows this Tangwystl f.Ll.ap B as distinct from the woman of the same
name and parentage who married Ednyfed Fychan, i.e. has them as
sisters, and we can only speculate whether they were the same person or
not. So the mistress is either niece or daughter of Ednyfed's first
wife, depending. (And if the pedigrees are trustworthy anyway:
Bartrum's is an amazing, but uncritical, collection, and many of them
are drawn from later sources.)
In message <1110751425.044186.65250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
[snip]
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
Omitted from my previous post:
Not the same Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, mistress (?) of Llywellyn
Fawr?
Nearly! Llywelyn's mistress (not wife, no) was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch
Goch ap Iorwerth ap Cynan ap Llywarch Howlbwrch; but her mother was
indeed apparently Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran. However, Bartrum
shows this Tangwystl f.Ll.ap B as distinct from the woman of the same
name and parentage who married Ednyfed Fychan, i.e. has them as
sisters, and we can only speculate whether they were the same person or
not. So the mistress is either niece or daughter of Ednyfed's first
wife, depending. (And if the pedigrees are trustworthy anyway:
Bartrum's is an amazing, but uncritical, collection, and many of them
are drawn from later sources.)
-
Graeme Wall
Re: Siblings of Owain Gwynedd
In message <1111004650.552130.217650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I vaguely remember reading that she had a more official position but was put
aside when the opportunity came up for a political marriage to King John's
(bastard) daughter. A 'tribal' arrangement as opposed to a church wedding.
The problem I have with Adles elsewhere in this descent. Occam's razor would
suggest that they are the same person.
The DNB of his era
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
In message <1110751425.044186.65250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
[snip]
Any idea who was Tudur's mother?
Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran of Menai
Omitted from my previous post:
Not the same Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, mistress (?) of Llywellyn
Fawr?
Nearly! Llywelyn's mistress (not wife, no)
I vaguely remember reading that she had a more official position but was put
aside when the opportunity came up for a political marriage to King John's
(bastard) daughter. A 'tribal' arrangement as opposed to a church wedding.
was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch ap Iorwerth ap Cynan ap Llywarch
Howlbwrch; but her mother was indeed apparently Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap
Bran. However, Bartrum shows this Tangwystl f.Ll.ap B as distinct from the
woman of the same name and parentage who married Ednyfed Fychan, i.e. has
them as sisters, and we can only speculate whether they were the same
person or not.
The problem I have with Adles elsewhere in this descent. Occam's razor would
suggest that they are the same person.
So the mistress is either niece or daughter of Ednyfed's first wife,
depending. (And if the pedigrees are trustworthy anyway: Bartrum's is an
amazing, but uncritical, collection, and many of them are drawn from later
sources.)
The DNB of his era
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>