Ida The Flame Bearer
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Le Bateman
Ida The Flame Bearer
Someone on the list asked about the grandfather and ancestors of Ida The
Flame Bearer. I can list them, but do not know how to verify them. Eoppa was
his father, his grandfather Esa, his great-grandfather Ingui and
greatgreatgrandfather Angenwit, his greatgreatgreatgrandfather Aloc, and
then this is where the myth begins Bernic, Brond, Baeldaeg, Woden ect... Is
Uhtred the Bold descended from any of the sons of Ida that were not kings?
Uhtred's grandfather was Oswulf, there was also a king of ther Angles by
that name. I think Oswulf's grandfather was Eadred, I do not know how to
verify this.
Le
Flame Bearer. I can list them, but do not know how to verify them. Eoppa was
his father, his grandfather Esa, his great-grandfather Ingui and
greatgreatgrandfather Angenwit, his greatgreatgreatgrandfather Aloc, and
then this is where the myth begins Bernic, Brond, Baeldaeg, Woden ect... Is
Uhtred the Bold descended from any of the sons of Ida that were not kings?
Uhtred's grandfather was Oswulf, there was also a king of ther Angles by
that name. I think Oswulf's grandfather was Eadred, I do not know how to
verify this.
Le
-
Gjest
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
A source for regnal lists, genealogical charts, maps, short paragraphs
on history and biographies, for Bernicia (and other parts of ancient
Britain) may be found in:
*The Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens* by Mike Ashley, Carroll &
Graf Publishers Inc., New York, 1998. The section that includes
Bernicia begins p. 269. Ida is discussed on pp. 272-3. Although there
is a lengthy bibliography in the back of the book, Ashley does not give
sources, other than Bede, etc., for the information.
on history and biographies, for Bernicia (and other parts of ancient
Britain) may be found in:
*The Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens* by Mike Ashley, Carroll &
Graf Publishers Inc., New York, 1998. The section that includes
Bernicia begins p. 269. Ida is discussed on pp. 272-3. Although there
is a lengthy bibliography in the back of the book, Ashley does not give
sources, other than Bede, etc., for the information.
-
Gjest
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
As these personages appear only in such compilations of tradition as
the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede (who used the ASC), they can't be
'verified' by contemporary external histories, which tell us next door
to nothing about events within Britain during the period. (And that's
why they call it the Dark Ages.) Contemporary internal histories don't
exist. By and large, you either take these people on faith or reject
'em as fantasy. Some part of the pedigrees may be historical -- I'm
inclined to give the later legs the benefit of the doubt -- but nobody
can say where valid genealogy leaves off and fantasy begins. (Though
there are sometimes suggestive clues in the names themselves, as for
example in the case of Cerdic, Stammvater, according to the ASC, of the
house of Wessex, who supposedly came a-ravaging into Britain in the
early 500s. His name isn't Germanic, but Celtic -- same as Ceredig, or
Lat. Coroticus -- which makes him unlikely to have been issue of the
Germanic male line the ASC places behind him. The name of his supposed
son, Cynric, is also Celtic -- same as Cynurig. Some would deny the
historicity of the Wessex male line until the 600s, though I don't
share this degree of skepticism.)
"Le Bateman" wrote:
the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede (who used the ASC), they can't be
'verified' by contemporary external histories, which tell us next door
to nothing about events within Britain during the period. (And that's
why they call it the Dark Ages.) Contemporary internal histories don't
exist. By and large, you either take these people on faith or reject
'em as fantasy. Some part of the pedigrees may be historical -- I'm
inclined to give the later legs the benefit of the doubt -- but nobody
can say where valid genealogy leaves off and fantasy begins. (Though
there are sometimes suggestive clues in the names themselves, as for
example in the case of Cerdic, Stammvater, according to the ASC, of the
house of Wessex, who supposedly came a-ravaging into Britain in the
early 500s. His name isn't Germanic, but Celtic -- same as Ceredig, or
Lat. Coroticus -- which makes him unlikely to have been issue of the
Germanic male line the ASC places behind him. The name of his supposed
son, Cynric, is also Celtic -- same as Cynurig. Some would deny the
historicity of the Wessex male line until the 600s, though I don't
share this degree of skepticism.)
"Le Bateman" wrote:
Someone on the list asked about the grandfather and ancestors of Ida
The
Flame Bearer. I can list them, but do not know how to verify them.
Eoppa was
his father, his grandfather Esa, his great-grandfather Ingui and
greatgreatgrandfather Angenwit, his greatgreatgreatgrandfather
Aloc, and
then this is where the myth begins Bernic, Brond, Baeldaeg, Woden
ect... Is
Uhtred the Bold descended from any of the sons of Ida that were not
kings?
Uhtred's grandfather was Oswulf, there was also a king of ther Angles
by
that name. I think Oswulf's grandfather was Eadred, I do not know how
to
verify this.
Le
-
Gjest
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
In a message dated 3/6/2005 8:42:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
LeBateman@att.net writes:
I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it
lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it
would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
not need to be addressed to this group.
In addition, the biography I pointed at does not specify the relationship
between Eoppa and Ida even though it specifically mentions Eoppa as his
predecessor. In addition it states that Ida was probably the founder on his line,
thus implying the author's belief that Eoppa was not related to Ida at all.
Will Johnson
LeBateman@att.net writes:
I can list them, but do not know how to verify them. Eoppa was
his father, his grandfather Esa, his great-grandfather Ingui and
greatgreatgrandfather Angenwit, his greatgreatgreatgrandfather Aloc, and
then this is where the myth begins Bernic, Brond, Baeldaeg, Woden
I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it
lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it
would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
not need to be addressed to this group.
In addition, the biography I pointed at does not specify the relationship
between Eoppa and Ida even though it specifically mentions Eoppa as his
predecessor. In addition it states that Ida was probably the founder on his line,
thus implying the author's belief that Eoppa was not related to Ida at all.
Will Johnson
-
Renia
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
You rely too much on Wikipedia, methinks. Enter the info there yourself.
Everyone else does.
In the meantime:
ASC:
A.D. 547. This year Ida began his reign; from whom first arose the royal
kindred of the Northumbrians. Ida was the son of Eoppa, Eoppa of Esa,
Esa of Ingwy, Ingwy of Angenwit, Angenwit of Alloc, Alloc of Bennoc,
Bennoc of Brand, Brand of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Fritholaf,
Fritholaf of Frithowulf, Frithowulf of Finn, Finn of Godolph, Godolph of
Geata. Ida reigned twelve years. he built Bambrugh-Castle, which was
first surrounded with a hedge, and afterwards with a wall.
The "Northanhymbre Saga - The History of the Anglo-Saxon Kings of
Northumbria" by John Marsden, BCA, 1992, has this to say:
Q
The lineage of Ida is set down in its earliest surviving form in the 'de
Northumbrensium et Anglorum regibus' entered by Nennius in the Northern
History of the 'Historia Brittonium'.
Woden begot Beldeg,
begot Beornec,
begor Gechbrond,
begot Aluson,
begot Inguec,
begot Aedibrith,
begot Ossa,
begot Eobba,
begot Ida.
As in all but one of the Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies, the descent of
Ida is traced from Woden through a line of ancestors recruited from the
ranks of myth, tradition and, eventually, the frontiers of history.
UNQ
The book also gives 4 generations of the descendants of Ida, if anyone
is interested.
Renia
In a message dated 3/6/2005 8:42:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
LeBateman@att.net writes:
I can list them, but do not know how to verify them. Eoppa was
his father, his grandfather Esa, his great-grandfather Ingui and
greatgreatgrandfather Angenwit, his greatgreatgreatgrandfather Aloc, and
then this is where the myth begins Bernic, Brond, Baeldaeg, Woden
I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it
lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it
would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
not need to be addressed to this group.
You rely too much on Wikipedia, methinks. Enter the info there yourself.
Everyone else does.
In the meantime:
ASC:
A.D. 547. This year Ida began his reign; from whom first arose the royal
kindred of the Northumbrians. Ida was the son of Eoppa, Eoppa of Esa,
Esa of Ingwy, Ingwy of Angenwit, Angenwit of Alloc, Alloc of Bennoc,
Bennoc of Brand, Brand of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Fritholaf,
Fritholaf of Frithowulf, Frithowulf of Finn, Finn of Godolph, Godolph of
Geata. Ida reigned twelve years. he built Bambrugh-Castle, which was
first surrounded with a hedge, and afterwards with a wall.
In addition, the biography I pointed at does not specify the relationship
between Eoppa and Ida even though it specifically mentions Eoppa as his
predecessor. In addition it states that Ida was probably the founder on his line,
thus implying the author's belief that Eoppa was not related to Ida at all.
Will Johnson
The "Northanhymbre Saga - The History of the Anglo-Saxon Kings of
Northumbria" by John Marsden, BCA, 1992, has this to say:
Q
The lineage of Ida is set down in its earliest surviving form in the 'de
Northumbrensium et Anglorum regibus' entered by Nennius in the Northern
History of the 'Historia Brittonium'.
Woden begot Beldeg,
begot Beornec,
begor Gechbrond,
begot Aluson,
begot Inguec,
begot Aedibrith,
begot Ossa,
begot Eobba,
begot Ida.
As in all but one of the Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies, the descent of
Ida is traced from Woden through a line of ancestors recruited from the
ranks of myth, tradition and, eventually, the frontiers of history.
UNQ
The book also gives 4 generations of the descendants of Ida, if anyone
is interested.
Renia
-
Gjest
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Renia wrote:
" Wjhonson wrote:> I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
You rely too much on Wikipedia, methinks. Enter the info there yourself. Everyone else does."
Like I said, I had not yet checked any source. So I could not enter the information in wikipedia, since I did not yet have it. Now that you have provided the quote, I have indeed entered it.
I'm just surprised that no one else beat me to it.
Will Johnson
" Wjhonson wrote:> I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
not need to be addressed to this group.
You rely too much on Wikipedia, methinks. Enter the info there yourself. Everyone else does."
Like I said, I had not yet checked any source. So I could not enter the information in wikipedia, since I did not yet have it. Now that you have provided the quote, I have indeed entered it.
I'm just surprised that no one else beat me to it.
Will Johnson
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
On 7 Mar 2005 10:04:24 -0800, mkkirk@rcn.com wrote:
Sisam has shown that the pre-Cerdic generations in the Wessex
genealogy are a late fabrication ['Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies',
Proceedings of the British Academy 39 (1953), 287-348]. However,
because Sisam's arguments are specific to the West Saxon pedigree, and
do not apply to the genealogies going back to Woden of the other
kingdoms, the case of Wessex is not a very good analogue for a
discussion of the Bernician genealogy.
In 1973, David Dumville published a short chronicle fragment from a
late ninth century manuscript at Bern, which has an interesting item
regarding the ancestry of Ida ['A new chronicle-fragment of early
British history', English Historical Review 88 (1973), 312-4]. Most
of the chronicle is based on the annalistic summary of Bede's
Ecclesiastical History, but there are few additions, including the
statement discussed here, which is not known from any other source.
"[Anno] dxlviio Ida regnare coepit, qui fuit filius Eoppa filii Eosa.
Iste Oessa primus uenit in Brittanniam. Ida regnauit annos xii, a quo
regalis Nordanhymbrorum prosapia originem tenit." My own translation
is as follows, with comments in brackets: In the year 547, Ida began
to reign, who was the son of Eoppa, son of Eosa. This Oessa [i.e.,
Eosa] first came into Britain [presumably meaning that he was the
first of his line there]. Ida reigned for 12 years, from whom the
royal line of Northumbria has its origin.
[The word "Anno" is illegible and supplied by the editor. The "o" in
the year should be a superscript. The words "qui ... Brittanniam" are
marked as the words which do not appear in other manuscripts.]
This manuscript suggests that there was some sort of tradition about
Eosa. However, even if Eosa/Oessa and Eoppa are to be regarded as
earlier Anglo-Saxon leaders who were a part of the invasion, the
alleged relationships between them and Ida could very well have been a
later invention. Note that the Northumbrian king list has Ida being
succeeded by six of his sons, which looks somewhat suspicious, as we
would expect the early history while they were establishing themselves
to be more complicated. Perhaps earlier versions of the king list
stated no relationships and somebody filled them in by guesswork
before the earliest surviving copies.
With Benoc/Beornec, a name evidently invented for the purpose of
explaining the name Berincia, we have entered the realm of fiction,
and there is also no good reason to believe the earlier generations.
As for the names between Benoc/Beornec and Eosa/Oessa, they are
uncheckable at best.
Stewart Baldwin
As these personages appear only in such compilations of tradition as
the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede (who used the ASC), they can't be
'verified' by contemporary external histories, which tell us next door
to nothing about events within Britain during the period. (And that's
why they call it the Dark Ages.) Contemporary internal histories don't
exist. By and large, you either take these people on faith or reject
'em as fantasy. Some part of the pedigrees may be historical -- I'm
inclined to give the later legs the benefit of the doubt -- but nobody
can say where valid genealogy leaves off and fantasy begins. (Though
there are sometimes suggestive clues in the names themselves, as for
example in the case of Cerdic, Stammvater, according to the ASC, of the
house of Wessex, who supposedly came a-ravaging into Britain in the
early 500s. His name isn't Germanic, but Celtic -- same as Ceredig, or
Lat. Coroticus -- which makes him unlikely to have been issue of the
Germanic male line the ASC places behind him. The name of his supposed
son, Cynric, is also Celtic -- same as Cynurig. Some would deny the
historicity of the Wessex male line until the 600s, though I don't
share this degree of skepticism.)
Sisam has shown that the pre-Cerdic generations in the Wessex
genealogy are a late fabrication ['Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies',
Proceedings of the British Academy 39 (1953), 287-348]. However,
because Sisam's arguments are specific to the West Saxon pedigree, and
do not apply to the genealogies going back to Woden of the other
kingdoms, the case of Wessex is not a very good analogue for a
discussion of the Bernician genealogy.
In 1973, David Dumville published a short chronicle fragment from a
late ninth century manuscript at Bern, which has an interesting item
regarding the ancestry of Ida ['A new chronicle-fragment of early
British history', English Historical Review 88 (1973), 312-4]. Most
of the chronicle is based on the annalistic summary of Bede's
Ecclesiastical History, but there are few additions, including the
statement discussed here, which is not known from any other source.
"[Anno] dxlviio Ida regnare coepit, qui fuit filius Eoppa filii Eosa.
Iste Oessa primus uenit in Brittanniam. Ida regnauit annos xii, a quo
regalis Nordanhymbrorum prosapia originem tenit." My own translation
is as follows, with comments in brackets: In the year 547, Ida began
to reign, who was the son of Eoppa, son of Eosa. This Oessa [i.e.,
Eosa] first came into Britain [presumably meaning that he was the
first of his line there]. Ida reigned for 12 years, from whom the
royal line of Northumbria has its origin.
[The word "Anno" is illegible and supplied by the editor. The "o" in
the year should be a superscript. The words "qui ... Brittanniam" are
marked as the words which do not appear in other manuscripts.]
This manuscript suggests that there was some sort of tradition about
Eosa. However, even if Eosa/Oessa and Eoppa are to be regarded as
earlier Anglo-Saxon leaders who were a part of the invasion, the
alleged relationships between them and Ida could very well have been a
later invention. Note that the Northumbrian king list has Ida being
succeeded by six of his sons, which looks somewhat suspicious, as we
would expect the early history while they were establishing themselves
to be more complicated. Perhaps earlier versions of the king list
stated no relationships and somebody filled them in by guesswork
before the earliest surviving copies.
With Benoc/Beornec, a name evidently invented for the purpose of
explaining the name Berincia, we have entered the realm of fiction,
and there is also no good reason to believe the earlier generations.
As for the names between Benoc/Beornec and Eosa/Oessa, they are
uncheckable at best.
Stewart Baldwin
-
norenxaq
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
The book also gives 4 generations of the descendants of Ida, if anyone
is interested.
Renia
Hello:
I would be interested
thank-you
-
Le Bateman
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble contacting you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Hello:
I would be interested
thank-you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
The book also gives 4 generations of the descendants of Ida, if anyone
is interested.
Renia
Hello:
I would be interested
thank-you
-
Renia
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Le Bateman wrote:
To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
Descendants of Ida from "Northanhymbre Saga - The History of the
Anglo-Saxon Kings of Northumbria" by John Marsden, BCA, 1992:
Ida (9th in descent from Woden) had child by unknown woman; Ocga,
ancestor of Liodwald who was father of Eata and Cuthwin. Eata had issue
Eadbert and Egbert. Cuthwin had issue Coenred and Ceolwulf.
Ida = Beornoch and has issue: Adda; Theodric; Aethelric
Aethelric married firstly, Bebba and had issue, Eanfrith, father of
Talorcan.
Aethelric married secondly, Acha, daughter of Aelle (who was child of
Yffi, who was 10th in descent from Woden) and sibling of Aelfric who was
father of Osric who was father of Oswin.
Aethelric and Acha had issue Oswald (father of Oethelwald) and Oswy.
Oswy married firstly, Fina and had issue, Aldfrith, who was father of
Osred and Osric.
Oswy married seondly, Rhiaianmelt, and had issue, Alcfrith.
Oswy married thirdly, Eanfled and had issue; Egfrith and Aelfwin.
Eanfled was daughter of Edwin (son of Aelle, above) and second wife,
Aethelberg). By his second wife, Coenburg, Edwin had further issue;
Eadfrith and Osfrid.
On page 35 of this book, it says:
Q
The genealogies interpolated into the Nennian Northern History derive
from the same origianl as both 'Vespasian B.vi' and the Moore Memoranda
to provide the earliest list of the offspring of Ida.
Ida had twelve sons, whose names are: Adda, Aedldric, Deodric, Edric,
Deothere, Osmer, and one queen, Bearnoch.
Symeon lists the six sons of Ida 'begotten in lawful marriage' and adds
six more to make up the full complement of twelve sons:
Ocga, Alric, Ecca, Osbald, Scor, Sceotheri; these were the sons of
concubines.
The importance of these basterd 'sons of Ida' will emerge in the eight
century when successors to Ida's kingdom based their claimes on descent
from these illegitimate forbears.
UNQ
Marsden makes plain that these genealogies are speculative and
confusing. However, he says the authoritative older texts by Symeon of
Durham in the twelfth century go some way to giving them credence.
Marsden also shows these wider genealogies from the various ancient sources.
Renia
I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble contacting you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
---
To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
Descendants of Ida from "Northanhymbre Saga - The History of the
Anglo-Saxon Kings of Northumbria" by John Marsden, BCA, 1992:
Ida (9th in descent from Woden) had child by unknown woman; Ocga,
ancestor of Liodwald who was father of Eata and Cuthwin. Eata had issue
Eadbert and Egbert. Cuthwin had issue Coenred and Ceolwulf.
Ida = Beornoch and has issue: Adda; Theodric; Aethelric
Aethelric married firstly, Bebba and had issue, Eanfrith, father of
Talorcan.
Aethelric married secondly, Acha, daughter of Aelle (who was child of
Yffi, who was 10th in descent from Woden) and sibling of Aelfric who was
father of Osric who was father of Oswin.
Aethelric and Acha had issue Oswald (father of Oethelwald) and Oswy.
Oswy married firstly, Fina and had issue, Aldfrith, who was father of
Osred and Osric.
Oswy married seondly, Rhiaianmelt, and had issue, Alcfrith.
Oswy married thirdly, Eanfled and had issue; Egfrith and Aelfwin.
Eanfled was daughter of Edwin (son of Aelle, above) and second wife,
Aethelberg). By his second wife, Coenburg, Edwin had further issue;
Eadfrith and Osfrid.
On page 35 of this book, it says:
Q
The genealogies interpolated into the Nennian Northern History derive
from the same origianl as both 'Vespasian B.vi' and the Moore Memoranda
to provide the earliest list of the offspring of Ida.
Ida had twelve sons, whose names are: Adda, Aedldric, Deodric, Edric,
Deothere, Osmer, and one queen, Bearnoch.
Symeon lists the six sons of Ida 'begotten in lawful marriage' and adds
six more to make up the full complement of twelve sons:
Ocga, Alric, Ecca, Osbald, Scor, Sceotheri; these were the sons of
concubines.
The importance of these basterd 'sons of Ida' will emerge in the eight
century when successors to Ida's kingdom based their claimes on descent
from these illegitimate forbears.
UNQ
Marsden makes plain that these genealogies are speculative and
confusing. However, he says the authoritative older texts by Symeon of
Durham in the twelfth century go some way to giving them credence.
Marsden also shows these wider genealogies from the various ancient sources.
Renia
-
Renia
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Renia wrote:
Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
Renia
Le Bateman wrote:
I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble contacting you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can
you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
---
To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
Renia
-
Renia
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
Northanhymbre Saga says:
Q
The evidence of Nennius, Symeon's source and 'Vespasian B.vi' must be
taken alongside that of the Moore Memoranda's list of the names and
years of the reigns of the first generation of Ida's successors.
After him Glappa - one year
Adda - eight
Aedilric - four
Thodric - seven
Friduuald - six
Hussa - seven
Of these, Nennius confirms Adda, Aedilric (or Aedldric) and Theodric of
Dedric as legitimate sons of Ida, while Glappa, Fridwald (or Friduuald)
and Hussa were of a different parentage.
UNQ
Marsdon cites the several sources, giving the divergent numbers of years
of these reigns, and says: "My purpose ... is not to arrive at any
definitive sequence of succession to the kingdom of Ida. Historians and
chronographers have exepended some gallons of ink to do so and arrived
at no more than speculative computations..."
The book gives this as Ida's wife, saying: "Another [Bitonic name] is
Ida's queen whom Nennius calls Bearnoch, which sounds suspiciously close
to Brynaich, suggesting a cognomen rather than an authentic personal name."
Renia
On 7 Mar 2005 10:04:24 -0800, mkkirk@rcn.com wrote:
As these personages appear only in such compilations of tradition as
the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede (who used the ASC), they can't be
'verified' by contemporary external histories, which tell us next door
to nothing about events within Britain during the period. (And that's
why they call it the Dark Ages.) Contemporary internal histories don't
exist. By and large, you either take these people on faith or reject
'em as fantasy. Some part of the pedigrees may be historical -- I'm
inclined to give the later legs the benefit of the doubt -- but nobody
can say where valid genealogy leaves off and fantasy begins. (Though
there are sometimes suggestive clues in the names themselves, as for
example in the case of Cerdic, Stammvater, according to the ASC, of the
house of Wessex, who supposedly came a-ravaging into Britain in the
early 500s. His name isn't Germanic, but Celtic -- same as Ceredig, or
Lat. Coroticus -- which makes him unlikely to have been issue of the
Germanic male line the ASC places behind him. The name of his supposed
son, Cynric, is also Celtic -- same as Cynurig. Some would deny the
historicity of the Wessex male line until the 600s, though I don't
share this degree of skepticism.)
Sisam has shown that the pre-Cerdic generations in the Wessex
genealogy are a late fabrication ['Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies',
Proceedings of the British Academy 39 (1953), 287-348]. However,
because Sisam's arguments are specific to the West Saxon pedigree, and
do not apply to the genealogies going back to Woden of the other
kingdoms, the case of Wessex is not a very good analogue for a
discussion of the Bernician genealogy.
In 1973, David Dumville published a short chronicle fragment from a
late ninth century manuscript at Bern, which has an interesting item
regarding the ancestry of Ida ['A new chronicle-fragment of early
British history', English Historical Review 88 (1973), 312-4]. Most
of the chronicle is based on the annalistic summary of Bede's
Ecclesiastical History, but there are few additions, including the
statement discussed here, which is not known from any other source.
"[Anno] dxlviio Ida regnare coepit, qui fuit filius Eoppa filii Eosa.
Iste Oessa primus uenit in Brittanniam. Ida regnauit annos xii, a quo
regalis Nordanhymbrorum prosapia originem tenit." My own translation
is as follows, with comments in brackets: In the year 547, Ida began
to reign, who was the son of Eoppa, son of Eosa. This Oessa [i.e.,
Eosa] first came into Britain [presumably meaning that he was the
first of his line there]. Ida reigned for 12 years, from whom the
royal line of Northumbria has its origin.
[The word "Anno" is illegible and supplied by the editor. The "o" in
the year should be a superscript. The words "qui ... Brittanniam" are
marked as the words which do not appear in other manuscripts.]
This manuscript suggests that there was some sort of tradition about
Eosa. However, even if Eosa/Oessa and Eoppa are to be regarded as
earlier Anglo-Saxon leaders who were a part of the invasion, the
alleged relationships between them and Ida could very well have been a
later invention. Note that the Northumbrian king list has Ida being
succeeded by six of his sons, which looks somewhat suspicious, as we
would expect the early history while they were establishing themselves
to be more complicated. Perhaps earlier versions of the king list
stated no relationships and somebody filled them in by guesswork
before the earliest surviving copies.
Northanhymbre Saga says:
Q
The evidence of Nennius, Symeon's source and 'Vespasian B.vi' must be
taken alongside that of the Moore Memoranda's list of the names and
years of the reigns of the first generation of Ida's successors.
After him Glappa - one year
Adda - eight
Aedilric - four
Thodric - seven
Friduuald - six
Hussa - seven
Of these, Nennius confirms Adda, Aedilric (or Aedldric) and Theodric of
Dedric as legitimate sons of Ida, while Glappa, Fridwald (or Friduuald)
and Hussa were of a different parentage.
UNQ
Marsdon cites the several sources, giving the divergent numbers of years
of these reigns, and says: "My purpose ... is not to arrive at any
definitive sequence of succession to the kingdom of Ida. Historians and
chronographers have exepended some gallons of ink to do so and arrived
at no more than speculative computations..."
With Benoc/Beornec, a name evidently invented for the purpose of
explaining the name Berincia, we have entered the realm of fiction,
and there is also no good reason to believe the earlier generations.
As for the names between Benoc/Beornec and Eosa/Oessa, they are
uncheckable at best.
The book gives this as Ida's wife, saying: "Another [Bitonic name] is
Ida's queen whom Nennius calls Bearnoch, which sounds suspiciously close
to Brynaich, suggesting a cognomen rather than an authentic personal name."
Renia
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Hilarious!
Renia Airhead strikes again.
How sweet it is!
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:d0kf0v$cae$10@newsmaster.pub.dc.hol.net...
| Renia wrote:
| > Le Bateman wrote:
| >
| >> I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble
contacting you
| >> for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can
| >> you be
| >> reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from
one of
| >> the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line
with the
| >> same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are
three.
| >> Oswulf was his grandfather.
| >> Le
| >> ---
| >
| >
| > To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
|
| Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
|
| Renia
Renia Airhead strikes again.
How sweet it is!
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:d0kf0v$cae$10@newsmaster.pub.dc.hol.net...
| Renia wrote:
| > Le Bateman wrote:
| >
| >> I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble
contacting you
| >> for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can
| >> you be
| >> reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from
one of
| >> the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line
with the
| >> same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are
three.
| >> Oswulf was his grandfather.
| >> Le
| >> ---
| >
| >
| > To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
|
| Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
|
| Renia
-
John A Rea
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Rein wrote:
inserted bit to prevent use of her userid for spam, etc. At the
end of each post was the instruction, "to reply, please remove "by bra"
> Renia
Renia wrote:
Le Bateman wrote:
I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble contacting
you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can
you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from
one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with
the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
---
To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
I recall that some years ago a poster (postress?) had, like you, an
inserted bit to prevent use of her userid for spam, etc. At the
end of each post was the instruction, "to reply, please remove "by bra"
> Renia
-
John A Rea
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
Rein wrote:
inserted bit to prevent use of her userid for spam, etc. At the
end of each post was the instruction, "to reply, please remove "by bra"
> Renia
Renia wrote:
Le Bateman wrote:
I too would like information. Renia I have had trouble contacting
you
for some reason my server rejected your email address. How else can
you be
reached. I would be interested to know if Uhtred is descended from
one of
the sons that did not become king. THere are several in his line with
the
same name as in the King's list. Oswulf, Ealdwulf, and Eadred are three.
Oswulf was his grandfather.
Le
---
To reply to me, just remove REMOVE from my email address.
Oops. I mean remove DELETE.
I recall that some years ago a poster (postress?) had, like you, an
inserted bit to prevent use of her userid for spam, etc. At the
end of each post was the instruction, "to reply, please remove "by bra"
> Renia
-
Renia
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
While wikipedia can be useful on a general level, I wouldn't trust it. I
came across one entry which was nothing more than a pasted newsgroup
discussion. I'm sure some entries are made in good faith, but if all and
sundry are contributing to this source, it leaves it open to all sorts
of errors and suppositions, and not just about genealogy.
Renia
Renia wrote:
" Wjhonson wrote:> I have not checked the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle yet, but I am suspicious that it lists this line. I would have thought if such a line were listed, that it would also appears on wikipedia and other online places where a question would
not need to be addressed to this group.
You rely too much on Wikipedia, methinks. Enter the info there yourself. Everyone else does."
Like I said, I had not yet checked any source. So I could not enter the information in wikipedia, since I did not yet have it. Now that you have provided the quote, I have indeed entered it.
I'm just surprised that no one else beat me to it.
Will Johnson
While wikipedia can be useful on a general level, I wouldn't trust it. I
came across one entry which was nothing more than a pasted newsgroup
discussion. I'm sure some entries are made in good faith, but if all and
sundry are contributing to this source, it leaves it open to all sorts
of errors and suppositions, and not just about genealogy.
Renia
-
Gjest
Re: Ida The Flame Bearer
In a message dated 3/10/2005 2:15:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
Then fix it. Quite the opposite Renia in my opinion. When articles are
writen by 3, 10 or 500 people they tend to become more accurate as they age, not
less. Take for example the article on Baha U'llah. At first it was quite
hagiographic being writen by Baha'is but after a few dozen new contributors added
bits and pieces to it, it has become much more balanced in the treatment of
the facts and theories.
The same can be said for hundreds of articles on there. You have to
examine (click on the History tab in that article) if the article had a few or many
contributors. And you can check the Talk tab as well to see discussion about
various points within the article. All-in-all its a very useful and valuable
service.
Of course its not valuable at all for those who have a particular axe to
grind since they will find they won't be allowed to grind it much when their
work is mercilessly edited by fifty other people.
Will Johnson
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
While wikipedia can be useful on a general level, I wouldn't trust it. I
came across one entry which was nothing more than a pasted newsgroup
discussion. I'm sure some entries are made in good faith, but if all and
sundry are contributing to this source, it leaves it open to all sorts
of errors and suppositions, and not just about genealogy.
Then fix it. Quite the opposite Renia in my opinion. When articles are
writen by 3, 10 or 500 people they tend to become more accurate as they age, not
less. Take for example the article on Baha U'llah. At first it was quite
hagiographic being writen by Baha'is but after a few dozen new contributors added
bits and pieces to it, it has become much more balanced in the treatment of
the facts and theories.
The same can be said for hundreds of articles on there. You have to
examine (click on the History tab in that article) if the article had a few or many
contributors. And you can check the Talk tab as well to see discussion about
various points within the article. All-in-all its a very useful and valuable
service.
Of course its not valuable at all for those who have a particular axe to
grind since they will find they won't be allowed to grind it much when their
work is mercilessly edited by fifty other people.
Will Johnson