Scottish puzzle

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Leo van de Pas

Scottish puzzle

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 05 mar 2005 12:30:02

Why is it that so few dates of birth are known even for titled Scots people?
I am trying to establish three generations of Earls of Argyll and I cannot find one exact date of birth. Can anyone help?

Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll
in 1457 he was created Earl, how old would he have been? His wedding date is no help "before 9 April 1465", how much before? He died 10 May 1493 and so I presume he lived a reasonable number of years, probably/possibly born before 1437?

Archibald Campbell, 2nd Earl of Argyll
born before 1468 killed at Flodden 9 September 1513. No record when he married and so no help with establishing when his son was born.

Colin Campbell, 3rd Earl of Argyll
married Jean Gordon before 28 February 1507. Would he have been 20 when he married? Roughly he would have been born then 1487 when his father could have been about 19.

Does anyone know when these three may have been born? Any educated guess?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Scottish puzzle

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2005 12:50:02

In a message dated 05/03/2005 11:21:20 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Why is it that so few dates of birth are known even for titled Scots people?
I am trying to establish three generations of Earls of Argyll and I cannot
find one exact date of birth. Can anyone help?




Leo,
The reason is that unlike the rest of Europe, and England, the Scottish
administration was not, nor has ever been until recent 'times' centralised or
organised. The Clan system and the quasi feudal society put paid to that.
Robin Mirlees de la Lanne, an exofficer of the College of Heralds and a good
friend did much research in Scotland - this was his opinion.

regards
peter

Gjest

Re: Scottish puzzle

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2005 17:30:03

Dear Leo,
1437 appears to be a good date for the birth of Colin
Campbell, 2nd Lord Campbell and 1st Earl of Argyll as his father Archibald Campbell,
Master of Campbell is known to have died before March 1440 (See CP III: 513),
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Scottish puzzle

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2005 21:16:48

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Leo,
1437 appears to be a good date for the birth of Colin

Campbell, 2nd Lord Campbell and 1st Earl of Argyll as his father
Archibald Campbell,
Master of Campbell is known to have died before March 1440 (See CP
III: 513),
Sincerely,

James W
Cummings


Dixmont, Maine USA

Alison Weir, on p. 222 of her Britain's Royal Families has Colin living
from 143? to 1493, but she has his fater as Duncan, 1st Lord Campbell
of Lochawe (d.1453)

Gjest

Re: Scottish Puzzle

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2005 22:21:02

Dear Leo, flcurry et als,
CP II : pp 512 - 513 shows Colin, 1st Earl
of Argyll as son of Archibald Campbell, Master of Campbell and grandson of
Duncan Campbell, 1st Lord Campbell of Lochawe.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Scottish puzzle

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 06 mar 2005 23:50:02

At 07:24 AM 05/03/2005, you wrote:
Why is it that so few dates of birth are known even for titled Scots people?

Unlike England, the center of administration in Scotland was
often overrun by the English causing much destruction. On
top of that there was constant internal warfare. This is a couple
of factors which makes one have to work harder to figure out
families. There are not that many people who care to put
this sort of effort into a family that is not their own.


I am trying to establish three generations of Earls of Argyll and I cannot
find one exact date of birth. Can anyone help?

Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll
in 1457 he was created Earl, how old would he have been? His wedding date
is no help "before 9 April 1465", how much before? He died 10 May 1493 and
so I presume he lived a reasonable number of years, probably/possibly born
before 1437?

His reputed mother is given in CP (under Argyll) as Elizabeth
Somervile, daughter of John, Lord Somerville. However, CP
(under Somervile) states that John, Lord Somervile was first
married on 10 July 1446. As pointed out by others, this is at
odds with their claim that Colin's father, Archibald, Master of
Campbell, was deceased by March 1440. Thus, further
generations are difficult to resolve when this generation has its
own problems.

Best wishes!

Peter

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