A copy of a charter recorded by Peter Leicester throws up a possible
earlier start date for Philip de Orreby's tenure as Justice of
Chester. Barraclough in _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ has dated
the start of Orreby's tenure back to 1207, but if the following
charter is accurate this could be pulled further back to 1205:
"David de Malopassu granted to Hugh de Cholmundely freedom from works
at the castle and mill from 4 bovates in Ron Christleton.
Witnesses: Philip de Orreby then justice of Chester, Henry de
Aldithlegh, Peter clerk, William Vernon then sheriff of Lancaster,
Richard son of William, Richard son of Robert, John de Larketon,
Jerworth de Shocklache." (Cheshire Record Office, Peter Leicester's
Books, DLT/B1 f.146)
I have it noted that William de Vernon was sheriff of Lancaster in
1205 for a six month period at the end of his fathers tenure of that
post. I will need to double check the source for this, but, if
correct, this short term window does indicate that Orreby must also
have been justiciar by this time.
Could it perhaps be a later forged charter? I think not as it would be
strange for the forger to insert the fact that William was sheriff of
Lancaster. Given that William only held this position for 6 months it
was probably a little known fact about his career. Therefore it would
have been somewhat superflous for a forger to add in the detail of
this position to try to gain additional credibility as William would
have been a well recognised person in his own right as he was
subsequently justiciar from 1229-1232 after Orreby.
Of the others in the charter, David de Malpas and Henry de Aldithlegh
fit with a date of 1205, as does Peter the clerk. A Hugh de
Cholmundley appears in a few other charters I have seen dating from
between 1217 and around 1250 (Barraclough no 402; Charters of St
Werbergh nos 374, 753, 842, 843). The latest of these charters also
mention an adult son Robert son of Hugh. Hugh mentioned in 1205
therefore could be the young incarnation of the same Hugh, or perhaps
a rare reference to an earlier generation. I have not seen Ormerod's
conclusion on this line - does anyone have access to it? I have not
identified the others mentioned.
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this.
Luke Potter
Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gordon Kirkemo
RE: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Luke,
You asked what Ormerod's conclusion was. I can offer the following that is
taken from a pedigree chart on page 637 of Vol. 2.
"Sir Hugh de Chelmundelegh, kt. [lord of Chelmundelegh] son and heir per
cart. without date, of Robert, son of Lidulph de Twemlowe, living in the
time of Philip de Orreby, just. Cest."
Sir Hugh is shown as the son of Robert de Chelmundelegh and ______, who in
turn was the son of William le Belward by a natural daughter of Hugh
Kevelioc. Ormerod seems to suggest this natural daughter may have been
named Tanglust. Ormerod further identifies three sons and a daughter by an
unknown wife as follows:
1. Robert, son and heir.
2. Richard
3. John, although he is presented in brackets.
4. Felicia
I hope this is helpful.
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Potter [mailto:lwrpotter@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:21 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
A copy of a charter recorded by Peter Leicester throws up a possible
earlier start date for Philip de Orreby's tenure as Justice of
Chester. Barraclough in _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ has dated
the start of Orreby's tenure back to 1207, but if the following
charter is accurate this could be pulled further back to 1205:
"David de Malopassu granted to Hugh de Cholmundely freedom from works
at the castle and mill from 4 bovates in Ron Christleton.
Witnesses: Philip de Orreby then justice of Chester, Henry de
Aldithlegh, Peter clerk, William Vernon then sheriff of Lancaster,
Richard son of William, Richard son of Robert, John de Larketon,
Jerworth de Shocklache." (Cheshire Record Office, Peter Leicester's
Books, DLT/B1 f.146)
I have it noted that William de Vernon was sheriff of Lancaster in
1205 for a six month period at the end of his fathers tenure of that
post. I will need to double check the source for this, but, if
correct, this short term window does indicate that Orreby must also
have been justiciar by this time.
Could it perhaps be a later forged charter? I think not as it would be
strange for the forger to insert the fact that William was sheriff of
Lancaster. Given that William only held this position for 6 months it
was probably a little known fact about his career. Therefore it would
have been somewhat superflous for a forger to add in the detail of
this position to try to gain additional credibility as William would
have been a well recognised person in his own right as he was
subsequently justiciar from 1229-1232 after Orreby.
Of the others in the charter, David de Malpas and Henry de Aldithlegh
fit with a date of 1205, as does Peter the clerk. A Hugh de
Cholmundley appears in a few other charters I have seen dating from
between 1217 and around 1250 (Barraclough no 402; Charters of St
Werbergh nos 374, 753, 842, 843). The latest of these charters also
mention an adult son Robert son of Hugh. Hugh mentioned in 1205
therefore could be the young incarnation of the same Hugh, or perhaps
a rare reference to an earlier generation. I have not seen Ormerod's
conclusion on this line - does anyone have access to it? I have not
identified the others mentioned.
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this.
Luke Potter
You asked what Ormerod's conclusion was. I can offer the following that is
taken from a pedigree chart on page 637 of Vol. 2.
"Sir Hugh de Chelmundelegh, kt. [lord of Chelmundelegh] son and heir per
cart. without date, of Robert, son of Lidulph de Twemlowe, living in the
time of Philip de Orreby, just. Cest."
Sir Hugh is shown as the son of Robert de Chelmundelegh and ______, who in
turn was the son of William le Belward by a natural daughter of Hugh
Kevelioc. Ormerod seems to suggest this natural daughter may have been
named Tanglust. Ormerod further identifies three sons and a daughter by an
unknown wife as follows:
1. Robert, son and heir.
2. Richard
3. John, although he is presented in brackets.
4. Felicia
I hope this is helpful.
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Potter [mailto:lwrpotter@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:21 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
A copy of a charter recorded by Peter Leicester throws up a possible
earlier start date for Philip de Orreby's tenure as Justice of
Chester. Barraclough in _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ has dated
the start of Orreby's tenure back to 1207, but if the following
charter is accurate this could be pulled further back to 1205:
"David de Malopassu granted to Hugh de Cholmundely freedom from works
at the castle and mill from 4 bovates in Ron Christleton.
Witnesses: Philip de Orreby then justice of Chester, Henry de
Aldithlegh, Peter clerk, William Vernon then sheriff of Lancaster,
Richard son of William, Richard son of Robert, John de Larketon,
Jerworth de Shocklache." (Cheshire Record Office, Peter Leicester's
Books, DLT/B1 f.146)
I have it noted that William de Vernon was sheriff of Lancaster in
1205 for a six month period at the end of his fathers tenure of that
post. I will need to double check the source for this, but, if
correct, this short term window does indicate that Orreby must also
have been justiciar by this time.
Could it perhaps be a later forged charter? I think not as it would be
strange for the forger to insert the fact that William was sheriff of
Lancaster. Given that William only held this position for 6 months it
was probably a little known fact about his career. Therefore it would
have been somewhat superflous for a forger to add in the detail of
this position to try to gain additional credibility as William would
have been a well recognised person in his own right as he was
subsequently justiciar from 1229-1232 after Orreby.
Of the others in the charter, David de Malpas and Henry de Aldithlegh
fit with a date of 1205, as does Peter the clerk. A Hugh de
Cholmundley appears in a few other charters I have seen dating from
between 1217 and around 1250 (Barraclough no 402; Charters of St
Werbergh nos 374, 753, 842, 843). The latest of these charters also
mention an adult son Robert son of Hugh. Hugh mentioned in 1205
therefore could be the young incarnation of the same Hugh, or perhaps
a rare reference to an earlier generation. I have not seen Ormerod's
conclusion on this line - does anyone have access to it? I have not
identified the others mentioned.
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this.
Luke Potter
-
Gjest
Re: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
This ties in with some queries I have. Further to some discussion about
the Vernons of Haddon here in January, I see that the last (2003)
edition of Burke's peerage has some new information. The pedigree is,
as before, vestigially linked to the Shipbrook branch, but apart from
that it looks structurally sound (although the Agnes who married John
Cockayne is placed three generations too late). There are still nits to
be picked regarding dates and descriptions, but it is certainly a great
improvement.
Anyway, it states that the Alice who was the second wife of William de
Vernon was Alice de Baumville, the widow of Philip de Orreby -it calls
her daughter of Thomas Bauville (sic)- these being the two men
mentioned in Luke's post. This doesn't seem an unlikely marriage given
their association, but does anyone have a source for the information?
It then states that William's son Robert married Hawise de Brailsford.
Gordon posted a valuable article on the Brailsford family in April
2003; it does mention a Hawise of the right era but she was married to
Gerard de Fanecurt. Henry (II) de Brailsford is mentioned alongside a
Robert de Vernon in 1216 but by dates this is more likely to be the
uncle of the Robert in question. Again, does anybody know a sorce for
the marriage?
Finally, the wife of William, great-great-grandson of Robert de Vernon,
is named as Joan. Luke, you mentioned this name for her on this board
in 1999- any idea now where it came from? You have obviously done a lot
of Vernon research. I mentioned in January the possibility that his
widow was Clementia, later wife of Sir Richard de Molyneux, but this is
only based on indirect evidence.
Matthew Connolly
the Vernons of Haddon here in January, I see that the last (2003)
edition of Burke's peerage has some new information. The pedigree is,
as before, vestigially linked to the Shipbrook branch, but apart from
that it looks structurally sound (although the Agnes who married John
Cockayne is placed three generations too late). There are still nits to
be picked regarding dates and descriptions, but it is certainly a great
improvement.
Anyway, it states that the Alice who was the second wife of William de
Vernon was Alice de Baumville, the widow of Philip de Orreby -it calls
her daughter of Thomas Bauville (sic)- these being the two men
mentioned in Luke's post. This doesn't seem an unlikely marriage given
their association, but does anyone have a source for the information?
It then states that William's son Robert married Hawise de Brailsford.
Gordon posted a valuable article on the Brailsford family in April
2003; it does mention a Hawise of the right era but she was married to
Gerard de Fanecurt. Henry (II) de Brailsford is mentioned alongside a
Robert de Vernon in 1216 but by dates this is more likely to be the
uncle of the Robert in question. Again, does anybody know a sorce for
the marriage?
Finally, the wife of William, great-great-grandson of Robert de Vernon,
is named as Joan. Luke, you mentioned this name for her on this board
in 1999- any idea now where it came from? You have obviously done a lot
of Vernon research. I mentioned in January the possibility that his
widow was Clementia, later wife of Sir Richard de Molyneux, but this is
only based on indirect evidence.
Matthew Connolly
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Perhaps this may be helpful.
Pat
1262, 25 December ... the king is sending Alan la Zuche [s/o Roger and
Margaret], justice of the forest on this side Trent, to the said march
commands the justice [Orreby] to deliver the castles of Edward, the king's
son, to wit, Chester, Beston and Shotwik, to Eudo la Zuche[I], brother of
the said Alan, without delay to keep in the name of the said Alan until his
arrival. [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 Henry III - Part 1,
m.19]
----------
Pat
1262, 25 December ... the king is sending Alan la Zuche [s/o Roger and
Margaret], justice of the forest on this side Trent, to the said march
commands the justice [Orreby] to deliver the castles of Edward, the king's
son, to wit, Chester, Beston and Shotwik, to Eudo la Zuche[I], brother of
the said Alan, without delay to keep in the name of the said Alan until his
arrival. [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 Henry III - Part 1,
m.19]
----------
From: "Gordon Kirkemo" <kirkemo@comcast.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Date: Tue, Mar 1, 2005, 5:14 PM
Luke,
You asked what Ormerod's conclusion was. I can offer the following that is
taken from a pedigree chart on page 637 of Vol. 2.
"Sir Hugh de Chelmundelegh, kt. [lord of Chelmundelegh] son and heir per
cart. without date, of Robert, son of Lidulph de Twemlowe, living in the
time of Philip de Orreby, just. Cest."
Sir Hugh is shown as the son of Robert de Chelmundelegh and ______, who in
turn was the son of William le Belward by a natural daughter of Hugh
Kevelioc. Ormerod seems to suggest this natural daughter may have been
named Tanglust. Ormerod further identifies three sons and a daughter by an
unknown wife as follows:
1. Robert, son and heir.
2. Richard
3. John, although he is presented in brackets.
4. Felicia
I hope this is helpful.
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Potter [mailto:lwrpotter@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:21 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
A copy of a charter recorded by Peter Leicester throws up a possible
earlier start date for Philip de Orreby's tenure as Justice of
Chester. Barraclough in _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ has dated
the start of Orreby's tenure back to 1207, but if the following
charter is accurate this could be pulled further back to 1205:
"David de Malopassu granted to Hugh de Cholmundely freedom from works
at the castle and mill from 4 bovates in Ron Christleton.
Witnesses: Philip de Orreby then justice of Chester, Henry de
Aldithlegh, Peter clerk, William Vernon then sheriff of Lancaster,
Richard son of William, Richard son of Robert, John de Larketon,
Jerworth de Shocklache." (Cheshire Record Office, Peter Leicester's
Books, DLT/B1 f.146)
I have it noted that William de Vernon was sheriff of Lancaster in
1205 for a six month period at the end of his fathers tenure of that
post. I will need to double check the source for this, but, if
correct, this short term window does indicate that Orreby must also
have been justiciar by this time.
Could it perhaps be a later forged charter? I think not as it would be
strange for the forger to insert the fact that William was sheriff of
Lancaster. Given that William only held this position for 6 months it
was probably a little known fact about his career. Therefore it would
have been somewhat superflous for a forger to add in the detail of
this position to try to gain additional credibility as William would
have been a well recognised person in his own right as he was
subsequently justiciar from 1229-1232 after Orreby.
Of the others in the charter, David de Malpas and Henry de Aldithlegh
fit with a date of 1205, as does Peter the clerk. A Hugh de
Cholmundley appears in a few other charters I have seen dating from
between 1217 and around 1250 (Barraclough no 402; Charters of St
Werbergh nos 374, 753, 842, 843). The latest of these charters also
mention an adult son Robert son of Hugh. Hugh mentioned in 1205
therefore could be the young incarnation of the same Hugh, or perhaps
a rare reference to an earlier generation. I have not seen Ormerod's
conclusion on this line - does anyone have access to it? I have not
identified the others mentioned.
I'd be interested in any thoughts on this.
Luke Potter
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
For those looking at Orreby and Chelmundelegh, here is an entirely
unverified line from Alard Orreby, b. c. 1110. The source is a family member
and, I suspect, before that, the Net so treat it for what it is. I have done
nothing with it to date, so any and all corrections, changes and deletions
recommended will be appreciated.
Of OT note: I would hazard a wild guess that the late, great actress
Katherine Hepburn (originally of Hartford, CT), who had ties to the
Houghtons, grew from these same roots.
1 Alard de Orreby b: ABT. 1110
2 Herbert I de Orreby , Sir b: ABT. 1140
+ Agnes de Kyme b: ABT. 1140
3 Philip de Orreby , Justiciar of Chester, Sir b: ABT. 1160 d: ABT.
1230
+ Emma de Coventre b: ABT. 1165 d: BEF. 1230
4 Philip de Orreby b: ABT. 1190 d: ABT. 1230
+ Leuca de Mohaut b: ABT. 1190 d: BEF. 1227
5 Clemence de Orreby b: 1220
+ Robert de Banastre b: 1217 d: AFT. 1242
6 Thomas de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1240
+ Eleanor de Betham b: WFT Est. 1235 d: 1265
7 Clemence de Banastre b: 1260 d: 1298
+ William de Lea , Baron of Kendall b: 1237
8 Sibilla de Lea b: 1283
+ Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sir Knight b: ABT.
1279 d: AFT. 1345
9 Sibyl de Hoghton b: 1308 d: 1388
+ Robert de Clitherow b: ABT. 1300
10 Hugh de Clitheroe , Sir b: ABT. 1346
+ Isabel de Gras b: ABT. 1348 d: 13
AUG 1421
+ William de Bold , Sir b: ABT. 1306 d:
AFT. 1376
10 Richard de Bold , Sir Knight b: 1329
d: 1390
+ Ellen Molyneux b: ABT. 1342
9 Katherine de Houghton b: ABT. 1310
+ Hugh de Venables , 7th Baron of
Kinderton b: ABT. 1310 d: 1353
10 Hugh de Venables , 8th Baron of
Kinderton b: ABT. 1330 d: 1383
+ Margery de Cotton b: ABT. 1353
10 Joan Venables b: WFT Est. 1333
+ Thomas de Lathom , Sir Knight b: WFT
Est. 1329 d: BEF. 20 MAR 1381/82
10 Margaret de Venables b: ABT. 1342 d:
AFT. 1417
+ Thomas de Davenport b: ABT. 1342 d:
ABT. 1390
10 Richard Venables b: ABT. 1345 d: ABT.
1379
+ Joan Fitton b: ABT. 1353 d: BET.
1381 - 1382
9 Adam de Hoghton , MP b: ABT. 1310 d: 1385
+ Philippa b: ABT. 1320
10 Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sheriff of
Lancashire b: ABT. 1338 d: 1422
+ Joanna Radcliffe b: ABT. 1353
+ Ellen Venables b: ABT. 1355 d: AFT. 1386
6 Robert de Banastre b: 1241
+ Alice Woodcock b: 1241 d: AFT. SEP 1291
7 James de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1260
+ Ellen le Boteler b: ABT. 1262
8 Alice de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1287
+ John de Langton b: WFT Est. 1285
9 Robert de Langton , Sir b: WFT Est. 1310
d: 1361
10 John de Langton b: 1330 d: BEF. 1361
7 Thomas Banastre b: WFT Est. 1262 d: BEF. 1300
+ Joan de Singleton b: WFT Est. 1262 d: 1303
8 Adam Banastre , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1284 d:
1314
+ Margaret de Holand b: ABT. 1280 d: AFT. 1324
9 Katherine Banastre b: ABT. 1314
+ John Harington , of Farleton, Sir b:
ABT. 1317 d: 1359
10 Nicholas Harington , of Farleton, Sir
Knight b: 1345 d: AFT. 1397
+ Isabella English b: ABT. 1351
5 Agnes de Orreby b: ABT. 1225
+ Walkeline de Arderne , Sir Knight b: 1220 d: ABT. 1265
6 Peter de Arderne , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1241 d: ABT.
1292
+ Margery b: 1250
7 John de Arderne , Sir b: 1266 d: 1308
+ Margred verch Gruffudd b: ABT. 1267
8 John de Arderne , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1299 d:
ABT. 1349
+ Alice de Venables b: ABT. 1299
9 John Arderne , twin, Sir Knight b: 1327 d:
1379
+ Ellen de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1326
10 Maud Arderne b: ABT. 1348
+ John de Warwick , Sir b: 1342
+ Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT.
1324
10 Katherine Arderne b: WFT Est. 1355
+ Henry de Delves , Sir b: WFT Est.
1350 d: 1394
9 Peter Arderne , twin b: 1327 d: BEF. 1379
+ Cecily (Cicely) Bredbury b: ABT. 1337 d:
ABT. 1387
10 Hugh Arderne b: ABT. 1357 d: BEF.
1423
+ Cecily (Cicely) de Hyde b: ABT. 1380
d: ABT. 1440
10 Blanche Arderne b: ABT. 1375 d: AFT.
1429
+ William Stanley , of Hooton, Sir b:
ABT. 1375 d: 2 FEB 1427/28
8 Agnes Arderne b: ABT. 1302
+ John Whetenhall , Sir b: ABT. 1295
9 Margaret Whetenhall b: WFT Est. 1325
+ Adam Bostock , Sir b: 1325
10 Ralph Bostock , Sir b: 1345
+ Isabel Lawton b: WFT Est. 1350
10 Alice Bostock b: ABT. 1350
+ Richard (William) Bulkeley , of
Cheadle b: ABT. 1346
7 Agnes de Arderne b: ABT. 1270
+ Warin de Mainwaring , of Warmincham, Sir Knight
b: ABT. 1255
8 Matilda Mainwaring b: ABT. 1286
+ William Trussell , Lord Cubbleston &
Wormingham b: ABT. 1261 d: BEF. 1317 [Note: Mother was Rose Pantulf]
9 William Trussell b: 1302
+ Rose de Venables b: 1304
10 Isabella de Trussell b: ABT. 1320
[Note: Isabella was also said to be wife of Fulke de Pembrugge of Tong,
godfather to Fulke Eyton who was of Cheshire/Leicestershire. The info is at
home, so I'll check]
+ John de St. Pierre b: ABT. 1308 d:
AFT. 1344
9 Warin Trussell , Sir b: ABT. 1315
+ Miss Stafford b: ABT. 1320
10 Maud Trussell b: ABT. 1337 d: 20 JUL
1369
+ John de Hastang , of Leamington b:
1330 d: OCT 1367
+ Maud de St. Philbert b: ABT. 1327
10 Lawrence Trussell , Sir b: ABT. 1360
+ Maud Charnells b: ABT. 1362
7 Cecily de Arderne b: ABT. 1292
+ William de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1290 d: BEF. 1356
8 Ellen de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1326
+ John Arderne , twin, Sir Knight b: 1327 d:
1379
9 Maud Arderne b: ABT. 1348
+ John de Warwick , Sir b: 1342
10 Margaret de Warwick b: 1368
+ Baldwin Bold , Sir b: 1364 d: 1434
+ Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT. 1324
10 Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT.
1375 d: 26 SEP 1415
+ Isabel (Maud) Belgrave b: ABT. 1375
9 Katherine Arderne b: WFT Est. 1355
+ Henry de Delves , Sir b: WFT Est. 1350
d: 1394
10 John de Delves , Sir b: 1370
+ Margaret de Calveley b: WFT Est.
1372
6 John de Arderne , Sir b: ABT. 1247
7 Matilda de Arderne b: ABT. 1297
+ John de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT. 1297 d:
ABT. 1324
8 John de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT. 1317 d:
AFT. 1377
+ Elizabeth de Sandback b: ABT. 1318
9 Matilda de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT.
1337
+ Richard Radcliffe , Steward
Blackburnshire b: ABT. 1320 d: 19 JUL 1380
10 Joanna Radcliffe b: ABT. 1353
+ Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sheriff of
Lancashire b: ABT. 1338 d: 1422
10 John Radcliffe , Sir Knight b: 1356
d: 8 AUG 1422
+ Margaret de Trafford b: ABT. 1350 d:
AUG 1434
9 Thomas de Leigh , of Booths Hall b: WFT
Est. 1345 d: 20 JUL 1404
+ Anna b: WFT Est. 1345
10 John de Leigh , of Addington b: WFT
Est. 1365 d: 22 FEB 1421/22
10 Margery Leigh b: ABT. 1370
+ Thomas de Wilburgham , Lord of
Radnor b: ABT. 1366 d: ABT. 1410
+ Alice de Baumville b: ABT. 1185 d: AFT. 1230
4 Fulk de Orreby , Sir Knight b: BEF. 1230 d: 23 AUG 1261
+ Philippe Strange , Heiress of Dalby b: 1238 d: BEF. 1261
5 Alice de Orreby b: 1260 d: BEF. 20 OCT 1317
+ Peter 1st Baron Corbet , of Caus, Sir b: ABT. 1235 d: 10
AUG 1300
6 Alice Corbet b: ABT. 1296 d: AFT. 1336
+ John de Harcourt , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1275 d: 1330
6 John Corbet b: 25 MAR 1298 d: 1347
7 John Corbet , of Leighton Montgomery b: 1324 d:
1383
+ Joan b: 1333 d: 1383
8 John Corbet , of Leighton Montgomery b: 1355
d: AFT. 1389
+ Joan b: 1359 d: AFT. 1389
9 Alice Corbet b: 1389 d: 8 SEP 1458
+ William de Brereton , Sir b: 1390 d:
1426
10 Eleanor de Brereton b: ABT. 1410
+ John III Savage , Sir b: 1410 d: 29
JUN 1463
10 Maud de Brereton b: 1413
+ Thomas Needham b: 1398
10 William de Brereton , Sir Knight b:
ABT. 1414 d: AFT. 1460
+ Philippa Hulse b: ABT. 1416
+ Humphrey de Beauchamp , Sir Knight b: BEF. MAR 1252/53
d: 18 JUL 1317
+ Sibyl b: ABT. 1240
3 John de Orreby , Sir b: ABT. 1170
4 Margaret de Orreby b: ABT. 1210
+ Robert de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1210 d: BEF. 21 FEB
1257/58
5 William de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1230 d: BEF. 29 MAR
1300
+ Alice Beke b: ABT. 1245
6 Robert 1st Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir b:
BET. 1250 - 1260 d: BEF. 25 MAR 1317
+ Margaret Deincourt b: ABT. 1275
7 John 2nd Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir b: 6
JAN 1303/04 d: 13 JUN 1349
+ Joan de Roscelyn b: ABT. 1307
8 John 3rd Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir
b: BEF. 6 JAN 1328/29 d: 29 MAR 1372
+ Cecily de Ufford b: ABT. 1329 d: BEF. 1372
9 Robert 4th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby, Sir b: ABT. 1349 d: 9 AUG 1396
+ Alice Skipwith b: 1355 d: BEF. 1372
10 William 5th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby,Sir b: ABT. 1370 d: 4 DEC 1409
+ Lucy le Strange b: ABT. 1367 d: AFT.
28 APR 1398
+ Joan de Holand b: ABT. 1380 d: 12
APR 1434
+ Margery Baroness la Zouche b: ABT. 1345
d: 18 OCT 1391
+ Elizabeth Baroness Latimer , of Corby b:
1350 d: 5 NOV 1395
6 Thomas de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1268 d: AFT. 1300
+ Margaret Heiress de Mumby b: ABT. 1270
7 Agnes de Willoughby b: ABT. 1296
+ William Lord of Hiltoft , Sir b: ABT. 1290
8 William Lord of Hiltoft , Sir Knight b: ABT.
1313
+ Alice Muer b: ABT. 1316
9 Alice Hiltoft b: ABT. 1333
+ William Lord of Skipwith , KB, MP, Sir
b: ABT. 1314 d: AFT. 1398
10 Alice Skipwith b: 1355 d: BEF. 1372
+ Robert 4th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby, Sir b: ABT. 1349 d: 9 AUG 1396
10 Margaret Skipwith b: ABT. 1368 d: 1
AUG 1415
+ Hugh de Cressy , of Hodstock b: ABT.
1345 d: BEF. 1400
+ Henry Vavasour , Sir b: ABT. 1365
d: 27 MAR 1413
3 Richard Pulford de Orreby b: ABT. 1172
4 Richard Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1195
+ Sybil de Eton b: ABT. 1200 d: AFT. 1261
5 Hamon Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1230 d: AFT. 1287
+ Mabel b: ABT. 1235 d: AFT. 1289
6 Richard Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1260 d: 1313
+ Cecily de Huxlegh b: ABT. 1273
7 Nicholas de Eton , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir b:
ABT. 1290 d: ABT. 1326
+ Joan de Stockport b: ABT. 1290 d: AFT. 1332
8 Cicely de Eton , Heiress of Poynton &
Stockport b: ABT. 1316
+ Edward Warren , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir
b: ABT. 1315 d: BEF. 1368
9 John Warren , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir
Knight b: ABT. 1343 d: 1387
+ Margaret de Stafford b: ABT. 1345 d: 6
APR 1418
10 Nicholas Warren , of Poynton &
Stockport b: 1378 d: 1413
+ Agnes de Wynnington b: ABT. 1378 d:
AFT. 1417
3 Herbert II de Orreby b: ABT. 1178
Rick Eaton
[NAMERick Eatonkirkemo@comcast.neteaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
unverified line from Alard Orreby, b. c. 1110. The source is a family member
and, I suspect, before that, the Net so treat it for what it is. I have done
nothing with it to date, so any and all corrections, changes and deletions
recommended will be appreciated.
Of OT note: I would hazard a wild guess that the late, great actress
Katherine Hepburn (originally of Hartford, CT), who had ties to the
Houghtons, grew from these same roots.
1 Alard de Orreby b: ABT. 1110
2 Herbert I de Orreby , Sir b: ABT. 1140
+ Agnes de Kyme b: ABT. 1140
3 Philip de Orreby , Justiciar of Chester, Sir b: ABT. 1160 d: ABT.
1230
+ Emma de Coventre b: ABT. 1165 d: BEF. 1230
4 Philip de Orreby b: ABT. 1190 d: ABT. 1230
+ Leuca de Mohaut b: ABT. 1190 d: BEF. 1227
5 Clemence de Orreby b: 1220
+ Robert de Banastre b: 1217 d: AFT. 1242
6 Thomas de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1240
+ Eleanor de Betham b: WFT Est. 1235 d: 1265
7 Clemence de Banastre b: 1260 d: 1298
+ William de Lea , Baron of Kendall b: 1237
8 Sibilla de Lea b: 1283
+ Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sir Knight b: ABT.
1279 d: AFT. 1345
9 Sibyl de Hoghton b: 1308 d: 1388
+ Robert de Clitherow b: ABT. 1300
10 Hugh de Clitheroe , Sir b: ABT. 1346
+ Isabel de Gras b: ABT. 1348 d: 13
AUG 1421
+ William de Bold , Sir b: ABT. 1306 d:
AFT. 1376
10 Richard de Bold , Sir Knight b: 1329
d: 1390
+ Ellen Molyneux b: ABT. 1342
9 Katherine de Houghton b: ABT. 1310
+ Hugh de Venables , 7th Baron of
Kinderton b: ABT. 1310 d: 1353
10 Hugh de Venables , 8th Baron of
Kinderton b: ABT. 1330 d: 1383
+ Margery de Cotton b: ABT. 1353
10 Joan Venables b: WFT Est. 1333
+ Thomas de Lathom , Sir Knight b: WFT
Est. 1329 d: BEF. 20 MAR 1381/82
10 Margaret de Venables b: ABT. 1342 d:
AFT. 1417
+ Thomas de Davenport b: ABT. 1342 d:
ABT. 1390
10 Richard Venables b: ABT. 1345 d: ABT.
1379
+ Joan Fitton b: ABT. 1353 d: BET.
1381 - 1382
9 Adam de Hoghton , MP b: ABT. 1310 d: 1385
+ Philippa b: ABT. 1320
10 Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sheriff of
Lancashire b: ABT. 1338 d: 1422
+ Joanna Radcliffe b: ABT. 1353
+ Ellen Venables b: ABT. 1355 d: AFT. 1386
6 Robert de Banastre b: 1241
+ Alice Woodcock b: 1241 d: AFT. SEP 1291
7 James de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1260
+ Ellen le Boteler b: ABT. 1262
8 Alice de Banastre b: WFT Est. 1287
+ John de Langton b: WFT Est. 1285
9 Robert de Langton , Sir b: WFT Est. 1310
d: 1361
10 John de Langton b: 1330 d: BEF. 1361
7 Thomas Banastre b: WFT Est. 1262 d: BEF. 1300
+ Joan de Singleton b: WFT Est. 1262 d: 1303
8 Adam Banastre , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1284 d:
1314
+ Margaret de Holand b: ABT. 1280 d: AFT. 1324
9 Katherine Banastre b: ABT. 1314
+ John Harington , of Farleton, Sir b:
ABT. 1317 d: 1359
10 Nicholas Harington , of Farleton, Sir
Knight b: 1345 d: AFT. 1397
+ Isabella English b: ABT. 1351
5 Agnes de Orreby b: ABT. 1225
+ Walkeline de Arderne , Sir Knight b: 1220 d: ABT. 1265
6 Peter de Arderne , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1241 d: ABT.
1292
+ Margery b: 1250
7 John de Arderne , Sir b: 1266 d: 1308
+ Margred verch Gruffudd b: ABT. 1267
8 John de Arderne , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1299 d:
ABT. 1349
+ Alice de Venables b: ABT. 1299
9 John Arderne , twin, Sir Knight b: 1327 d:
1379
+ Ellen de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1326
10 Maud Arderne b: ABT. 1348
+ John de Warwick , Sir b: 1342
+ Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT.
1324
10 Katherine Arderne b: WFT Est. 1355
+ Henry de Delves , Sir b: WFT Est.
1350 d: 1394
9 Peter Arderne , twin b: 1327 d: BEF. 1379
+ Cecily (Cicely) Bredbury b: ABT. 1337 d:
ABT. 1387
10 Hugh Arderne b: ABT. 1357 d: BEF.
1423
+ Cecily (Cicely) de Hyde b: ABT. 1380
d: ABT. 1440
10 Blanche Arderne b: ABT. 1375 d: AFT.
1429
+ William Stanley , of Hooton, Sir b:
ABT. 1375 d: 2 FEB 1427/28
8 Agnes Arderne b: ABT. 1302
+ John Whetenhall , Sir b: ABT. 1295
9 Margaret Whetenhall b: WFT Est. 1325
+ Adam Bostock , Sir b: 1325
10 Ralph Bostock , Sir b: 1345
+ Isabel Lawton b: WFT Est. 1350
10 Alice Bostock b: ABT. 1350
+ Richard (William) Bulkeley , of
Cheadle b: ABT. 1346
7 Agnes de Arderne b: ABT. 1270
+ Warin de Mainwaring , of Warmincham, Sir Knight
b: ABT. 1255
8 Matilda Mainwaring b: ABT. 1286
+ William Trussell , Lord Cubbleston &
Wormingham b: ABT. 1261 d: BEF. 1317 [Note: Mother was Rose Pantulf]
9 William Trussell b: 1302
+ Rose de Venables b: 1304
10 Isabella de Trussell b: ABT. 1320
[Note: Isabella was also said to be wife of Fulke de Pembrugge of Tong,
godfather to Fulke Eyton who was of Cheshire/Leicestershire. The info is at
home, so I'll check]
+ John de St. Pierre b: ABT. 1308 d:
AFT. 1344
9 Warin Trussell , Sir b: ABT. 1315
+ Miss Stafford b: ABT. 1320
10 Maud Trussell b: ABT. 1337 d: 20 JUL
1369
+ John de Hastang , of Leamington b:
1330 d: OCT 1367
+ Maud de St. Philbert b: ABT. 1327
10 Lawrence Trussell , Sir b: ABT. 1360
+ Maud Charnells b: ABT. 1362
7 Cecily de Arderne b: ABT. 1292
+ William de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1290 d: BEF. 1356
8 Ellen de Wasteneys b: ABT. 1326
+ John Arderne , twin, Sir Knight b: 1327 d:
1379
9 Maud Arderne b: ABT. 1348
+ John de Warwick , Sir b: 1342
10 Margaret de Warwick b: 1368
+ Baldwin Bold , Sir b: 1364 d: 1434
+ Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT. 1324
10 Robert Legh , of Adlington b: ABT.
1375 d: 26 SEP 1415
+ Isabel (Maud) Belgrave b: ABT. 1375
9 Katherine Arderne b: WFT Est. 1355
+ Henry de Delves , Sir b: WFT Est. 1350
d: 1394
10 John de Delves , Sir b: 1370
+ Margaret de Calveley b: WFT Est.
1372
6 John de Arderne , Sir b: ABT. 1247
7 Matilda de Arderne b: ABT. 1297
+ John de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT. 1297 d:
ABT. 1324
8 John de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT. 1317 d:
AFT. 1377
+ Elizabeth de Sandback b: ABT. 1318
9 Matilda de Legh , of Booths Hall b: ABT.
1337
+ Richard Radcliffe , Steward
Blackburnshire b: ABT. 1320 d: 19 JUL 1380
10 Joanna Radcliffe b: ABT. 1353
+ Richard de Hoghton , MP, Sheriff of
Lancashire b: ABT. 1338 d: 1422
10 John Radcliffe , Sir Knight b: 1356
d: 8 AUG 1422
+ Margaret de Trafford b: ABT. 1350 d:
AUG 1434
9 Thomas de Leigh , of Booths Hall b: WFT
Est. 1345 d: 20 JUL 1404
+ Anna b: WFT Est. 1345
10 John de Leigh , of Addington b: WFT
Est. 1365 d: 22 FEB 1421/22
10 Margery Leigh b: ABT. 1370
+ Thomas de Wilburgham , Lord of
Radnor b: ABT. 1366 d: ABT. 1410
+ Alice de Baumville b: ABT. 1185 d: AFT. 1230
4 Fulk de Orreby , Sir Knight b: BEF. 1230 d: 23 AUG 1261
+ Philippe Strange , Heiress of Dalby b: 1238 d: BEF. 1261
5 Alice de Orreby b: 1260 d: BEF. 20 OCT 1317
+ Peter 1st Baron Corbet , of Caus, Sir b: ABT. 1235 d: 10
AUG 1300
6 Alice Corbet b: ABT. 1296 d: AFT. 1336
+ John de Harcourt , Sir Knight b: ABT. 1275 d: 1330
6 John Corbet b: 25 MAR 1298 d: 1347
7 John Corbet , of Leighton Montgomery b: 1324 d:
1383
+ Joan b: 1333 d: 1383
8 John Corbet , of Leighton Montgomery b: 1355
d: AFT. 1389
+ Joan b: 1359 d: AFT. 1389
9 Alice Corbet b: 1389 d: 8 SEP 1458
+ William de Brereton , Sir b: 1390 d:
1426
10 Eleanor de Brereton b: ABT. 1410
+ John III Savage , Sir b: 1410 d: 29
JUN 1463
10 Maud de Brereton b: 1413
+ Thomas Needham b: 1398
10 William de Brereton , Sir Knight b:
ABT. 1414 d: AFT. 1460
+ Philippa Hulse b: ABT. 1416
+ Humphrey de Beauchamp , Sir Knight b: BEF. MAR 1252/53
d: 18 JUL 1317
+ Sibyl b: ABT. 1240
3 John de Orreby , Sir b: ABT. 1170
4 Margaret de Orreby b: ABT. 1210
+ Robert de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1210 d: BEF. 21 FEB
1257/58
5 William de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1230 d: BEF. 29 MAR
1300
+ Alice Beke b: ABT. 1245
6 Robert 1st Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir b:
BET. 1250 - 1260 d: BEF. 25 MAR 1317
+ Margaret Deincourt b: ABT. 1275
7 John 2nd Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir b: 6
JAN 1303/04 d: 13 JUN 1349
+ Joan de Roscelyn b: ABT. 1307
8 John 3rd Baron de Willoughby , of Eresby, Sir
b: BEF. 6 JAN 1328/29 d: 29 MAR 1372
+ Cecily de Ufford b: ABT. 1329 d: BEF. 1372
9 Robert 4th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby, Sir b: ABT. 1349 d: 9 AUG 1396
+ Alice Skipwith b: 1355 d: BEF. 1372
10 William 5th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby,Sir b: ABT. 1370 d: 4 DEC 1409
+ Lucy le Strange b: ABT. 1367 d: AFT.
28 APR 1398
+ Joan de Holand b: ABT. 1380 d: 12
APR 1434
+ Margery Baroness la Zouche b: ABT. 1345
d: 18 OCT 1391
+ Elizabeth Baroness Latimer , of Corby b:
1350 d: 5 NOV 1395
6 Thomas de Willoughby , Sir b: ABT. 1268 d: AFT. 1300
+ Margaret Heiress de Mumby b: ABT. 1270
7 Agnes de Willoughby b: ABT. 1296
+ William Lord of Hiltoft , Sir b: ABT. 1290
8 William Lord of Hiltoft , Sir Knight b: ABT.
1313
+ Alice Muer b: ABT. 1316
9 Alice Hiltoft b: ABT. 1333
+ William Lord of Skipwith , KB, MP, Sir
b: ABT. 1314 d: AFT. 1398
10 Alice Skipwith b: 1355 d: BEF. 1372
+ Robert 4th Baron de Willoughby , of
Eresby, Sir b: ABT. 1349 d: 9 AUG 1396
10 Margaret Skipwith b: ABT. 1368 d: 1
AUG 1415
+ Hugh de Cressy , of Hodstock b: ABT.
1345 d: BEF. 1400
+ Henry Vavasour , Sir b: ABT. 1365
d: 27 MAR 1413
3 Richard Pulford de Orreby b: ABT. 1172
4 Richard Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1195
+ Sybil de Eton b: ABT. 1200 d: AFT. 1261
5 Hamon Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1230 d: AFT. 1287
+ Mabel b: ABT. 1235 d: AFT. 1289
6 Richard Pulford , of Eton, Sir b: ABT. 1260 d: 1313
+ Cecily de Huxlegh b: ABT. 1273
7 Nicholas de Eton , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir b:
ABT. 1290 d: ABT. 1326
+ Joan de Stockport b: ABT. 1290 d: AFT. 1332
8 Cicely de Eton , Heiress of Poynton &
Stockport b: ABT. 1316
+ Edward Warren , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir
b: ABT. 1315 d: BEF. 1368
9 John Warren , of Poynton & Stockport, Sir
Knight b: ABT. 1343 d: 1387
+ Margaret de Stafford b: ABT. 1345 d: 6
APR 1418
10 Nicholas Warren , of Poynton &
Stockport b: 1378 d: 1413
+ Agnes de Wynnington b: ABT. 1378 d:
AFT. 1417
3 Herbert II de Orreby b: ABT. 1178
Rick Eaton
[NAMERick Eatonkirkemo@comcast.neteaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Luke,
You asked what Ormerod's conclusion was. I can offer the following that is
taken from a pedigree chart on page 637 of Vol. 2.
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
And additionals:
A2A:
Lancashire Record Office Clifton of Lytham
Catalogue Ref. DDCL
Creator(s):
Clifton family of Lytham, Lancashire
Deeds and Documents relating to various Townships. - ref. DDCL 1-296
CHESHIRE.
FILE [no title] - ref. DDCL 72 - date: n.d. (1218-20)
Covenant by Richard son of Stephen of Brexes to Hugh of Brexes his eldest
brother that the heirs of Hugh by Alice daughter of Hugh of Dutton shall be
his own heirs. Witn. PH. of Orreby, Justiciar of Chester, Peter the Clerk of
the Lord Chamberlain, Joseeram of Hellesby, Adam of Dutton, Richard of
Kingesl', Hugh of Masci, Ran. of Frodesham, Thomas son of William, Richard
son of Liulph of Tyanmor, Richard son of Ralph, Geoffrey of Dutton, Richard
of Rodeston, clerk. Seal.
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service
CHOLMONDELEY OF CHOLMONDELEY Catalogue Ref. DCH
Creator(s): Cholmondeley family, Marquesses of Cholmondeley
Schedule "A"; BOX "A" - ref. DCH/A
FILE [no title] - ref. DCH/A/1 - date: c.1228 Witnesses: Philip de Orreby
then Justiciar of Chester, John Constable of Chester, Hugh de [Aldich], John
de Arden, Warin de Vernon, Walter de Coventry, William de Venables, Hamo de
Venables, Hamo de [Oralc---], Hugh and Geoffrey Dispenser, Stephen de
[Ladgrave], Thomas Tisket, Richard Phitton, William de Vernon, William de
Malpas, William the clerk of Stoke. N/D.
there is also an interesting Orreby account under:
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service,Mayor of Chester
Catalogue Ref. ZM Creator(s): Mayor of Chester PORTMOTE COURT ROLLS
Pat
----------
A2A:
Lancashire Record Office Clifton of Lytham
Catalogue Ref. DDCL
Creator(s):
Clifton family of Lytham, Lancashire
Deeds and Documents relating to various Townships. - ref. DDCL 1-296
CHESHIRE.
FILE [no title] - ref. DDCL 72 - date: n.d. (1218-20)
Covenant by Richard son of Stephen of Brexes to Hugh of Brexes his eldest
brother that the heirs of Hugh by Alice daughter of Hugh of Dutton shall be
his own heirs. Witn. PH. of Orreby, Justiciar of Chester, Peter the Clerk of
the Lord Chamberlain, Joseeram of Hellesby, Adam of Dutton, Richard of
Kingesl', Hugh of Masci, Ran. of Frodesham, Thomas son of William, Richard
son of Liulph of Tyanmor, Richard son of Ralph, Geoffrey of Dutton, Richard
of Rodeston, clerk. Seal.
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service
CHOLMONDELEY OF CHOLMONDELEY Catalogue Ref. DCH
Creator(s): Cholmondeley family, Marquesses of Cholmondeley
Schedule "A"; BOX "A" - ref. DCH/A
FILE [no title] - ref. DCH/A/1 - date: c.1228 Witnesses: Philip de Orreby
then Justiciar of Chester, John Constable of Chester, Hugh de [Aldich], John
de Arden, Warin de Vernon, Walter de Coventry, William de Venables, Hamo de
Venables, Hamo de [Oralc---], Hugh and Geoffrey Dispenser, Stephen de
[Ladgrave], Thomas Tisket, Richard Phitton, William de Vernon, William de
Malpas, William the clerk of Stoke. N/D.
there is also an interesting Orreby account under:
Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service,Mayor of Chester
Catalogue Ref. ZM Creator(s): Mayor of Chester PORTMOTE COURT ROLLS
Pat
----------
From: paul bulkley <designeconomic@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2005, 1:23 PM
The following information applies:
Barraclough "Charters of Earls of Chester"
1207/1229: There are possibly a dozen Charters
witnessed by Philip de Orreby as Justiciar in this
text.
1207/1208: Barraclough (Page 357) considered that
Philip did not become Justiciar before this date.
Barrclough " Early Cheshire Charters"
1222: Final Concord in County Court of Chester before
Earl Ranulph and Philip de Orreby the justiciar
between master Robert of Alrecumbe, parson of Tarvin,
and Robert Bruen of Bruen Stapleford etc etc
Baker-Wilbraham Deeds
12th Cent: Grant by Randolph Earl of Chester of 20/-
per annum to Abbey of Stanlaw - Witness Philip de
Orreby.
Bunbury Deeds
1202: Barraclough discussed dates of charter (Page
28), and states that it must be later than Philip de
Orreby's succession to the judiciarship which occurred
about 1202.
NOTE: If "Early Cheshire Charters" was prepared and
published later than "Charters of Earls of Chester",
it would appear that Barraclough had grounds to
believe of the earlier date of 1202.
Tait:
1229: Tait stated that Philip de Orreby resigned
Easter 1229, and that his son and namesake predeceased
him.
Thacker " The Earldom of Chester"
1194-1195: Page 94. Philip de Orby (Earl's Knight)
supervised function Coventry.
before 1203: Page 94. Philip de Orby (Steward of
Ranulph) Lincolnshire.
1208-1229: Page 19. Philip de Orby scion of
Lincolnshire family justiciar.
Sincerely Yours,
Paul Bulkley
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
-
Luke Potter
Re: Dates of Philip de Orreby as Justice of Chester
Hi Paul,
Barraclough was working on _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ when he
died and had published _Early Cheshire Charters_ earlier in his
career.
In _Early Cheshire Charters_, Barraclough was apparently following the
conclusion of Tait who dated Orreby's tenure as justiciar from 1202,
but in his later work Barraclough states that he was not sure what
evidence Tait had based this on. The earliest he felt that he could
certainly date Orreby's position to was around 1207/8, and therefore
in his later volume charters which were witnessed by Orreby as
justiciar he dated as being after this date. However, if the charter I
cited in my earlier mail is correct, then we have some proof that
Orreby was in the position by 1205.
Orreby was a Lincolnshire man who entered the Earl of Chester's
service by the 1190s, and Tait may well have been correct in citing
1202 as the start of his tenure of the postion of justiciar, but we
just need to re-discover the evidence which he based this on.
Luke
Barraclough was working on _Charters of the Earls of Chester_ when he
died and had published _Early Cheshire Charters_ earlier in his
career.
In _Early Cheshire Charters_, Barraclough was apparently following the
conclusion of Tait who dated Orreby's tenure as justiciar from 1202,
but in his later work Barraclough states that he was not sure what
evidence Tait had based this on. The earliest he felt that he could
certainly date Orreby's position to was around 1207/8, and therefore
in his later volume charters which were witnessed by Orreby as
justiciar he dated as being after this date. However, if the charter I
cited in my earlier mail is correct, then we have some proof that
Orreby was in the position by 1205.
Orreby was a Lincolnshire man who entered the Earl of Chester's
service by the 1190s, and Tait may well have been correct in citing
1202 as the start of his tenure of the postion of justiciar, but we
just need to re-discover the evidence which he based this on.
Luke