New parentage of Gerberge de Provence ?

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JBunot

New parentage of Gerberge de Provence ?

Legg inn av JBunot » 22 feb 2005 19:21:02

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1107/12) is traditionally considered a d/o
Geoffroy, comte de Provence and Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de
Marseille. Being heiress of Lower-Provence or Arles, she married in 1083,
Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan and de Carlat. They had 2 daughters,
Douce, comtesse de Barcelone in 1112 and Etiennette/Stephanie, dame de
Baux in 1116.

Recently, in his acclaimed “La Provence et la societe feodale 879-1166”
(1976) in a family chart of the comtes de Provence (fig. 2, p. 34),
Jean-Pierre Poly has reassigned Gerberge as a d/o Bertrand, comte de
Provence (1055/90) and his wife Mathilde, therefore making her a
grand-daughter of comte Geoffroy and a sister of Cecile, vicomtesse
d’Albi, Beziers and Carcassonnes (Trencavel). I believe that the reasons
for the revised ancestry are mainly chronological (see below) but also
onomastic since the son of Etiennette/Stephanie de Baux is precisely named
Bertrand most probably after his most important ancestor, comte Bertrand,
and her daughter Matelle/Mathilde de Bigorre would be named after his wife
comtesse Mathilde. Lets look more closely at the chronology :

1) Traditional ancestry of Douce, comtesse de Barcelone

Guillaume III, comte de Provence (992/1018) (+ 1018)
m. 1002, Gerberge de Bourgogne (+ 1020/23)

Geoffroy, comte de Provence (1032/57/60) (+ c. 1061/62)
m. c. 1040, Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de Marseille (1040/95)

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1093/1112) (* c. 1060 + 1112/18)
m. 1085, Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan et Carlat (+ 1110/12)

Douce, comtesse de Provence (1112/27) (+ 1127/30)
m. 1112, Raymond-Berenger III, comte de Barcelone (+ 1131)


2) Revised ancestry according to Jean-Pierre Poly (1976)

Guillaume III, comte de Provence (992/1018) (+ 1018)
m. 1002, Gerberge de Bourgogne (+ 1020/23)

Geoffroy, comte de Provence (1032/57/60) (+ c. 1061/62)
m. c. 1040, Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de Marseille (1040/95)

Bertrand, comte de Provence (1060/90) (+ 1090/94)
m. 1061, Mathilde

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1093/1112) (* c. 1060 + 1112/18)
m. 1085, Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan et Carlat (+ 1110/12)

Douce, comtesse de Provence (1112/27) (+ 1127/30)
m. 1112, Raymond-Berenger III, comte de Barcelone (+ 1131)

Evidently the chronology works better in the case of the revised ancestry.
Anybody would care to comment or complete the data. In advance thank you.
Jean Bunot

Cristopher Nash

Re: New parentage of Gerberge de Provence ?

Legg inn av Cristopher Nash » 03 jun 2005 12:41:01

Still tidying up old queries and not having seen a response to the
one raised by Jean Bunot under this header, I thought I'd ask whether
anyone sees any problem with my suggesting that the chart to which he
refers (fig. 2, p. 34) was erroneously drawn and should not be taken
as evidence of a new view? I.e. that Poly had meant to confirm - as
he does in the body of his text itself, p. 318 - the >traditional
ancestry of Douce< and was proposing no new parentage for Gerberge de
Provence.

Cheers,

Cris

On 22 Feb 2005 "JBunot" <magnusrufus@yahoo.com> wrote --

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1107/12) is traditionally considered a d/o
Geoffroy, comte de Provence and Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de
Marseille. Being heiress of Lower-Provence or Arles, she married in 1083,
Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan and de Carlat. They had 2 daughters,
Douce, comtesse de Barcelone in 1112 and Etiennette/Stephanie, dame de
Baux in 1116.

Recently, in his acclaimed ìLa Provence et la societe feodale 879-1166î
(1976) in a family chart of the comtes de Provence (fig. 2, p. 34),
Jean-Pierre Poly has reassigned Gerberge as a d/o Bertrand, comte de
Provence (1055/90) and his wife Mathilde, therefore making her a
grand-daughter of comte Geoffroy and a sister of Cecile, vicomtesse
díAlbi, Beziers and Carcassonnes (Trencavel). I believe that the reasons
for the revised ancestry are mainly chronological (see below) but also
onomastic since the son of Etiennette/Stephanie de Baux is precisely named
Bertrand most probably after his most important ancestor, comte Bertrand,
and her daughter Matelle/Mathilde de Bigorre would be named after his wife
comtesse Mathilde. Lets look more closely at the chronology :

1) Traditional ancestry of Douce, comtesse de Barcelone

Guillaume III, comte de Provence (992/1018) (+ 1018)
m. 1002, Gerberge de Bourgogne (+ 1020/23)

Geoffroy, comte de Provence (1032/57/60) (+ c. 1061/62)
m. c. 1040, Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de Marseille (1040/95)

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1093/1112) (* c. 1060 + 1112/18)
m. 1085, Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan et Carlat (+ 1110/12)

Douce, comtesse de Provence (1112/27) (+ 1127/30)
m. 1112, Raymond-Berenger III, comte de Barcelone (+ 1131)


2) Revised ancestry according to Jean-Pierre Poly (1976)

Guillaume III, comte de Provence (992/1018) (+ 1018)
m. 1002, Gerberge de Bourgogne (+ 1020/23)

Geoffroy, comte de Provence (1032/57/60) (+ c. 1061/62)
m. c. 1040, Etiennette/Stephanie dite Douce de Marseille (1040/95)

Bertrand, comte de Provence (1060/90) (+ 1090/94)
m. 1061, Mathilde

Gerberge, comtesse de Provence (1093/1112) (* c. 1060 + 1112/18)
m. 1085, Girbert, vicomte de Millau-Gevaudan et Carlat (+ 1110/12)

Douce, comtesse de Provence (1112/27) (+ 1127/30)
m. 1112, Raymond-Berenger III, comte de Barcelone (+ 1131)

Evidently the chronology works better in the case of the revised ancestry.
Anybody would care to comment or complete the data. In advance thank you.
Jean Bunot


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