Advice and possibly help needed
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Rick Eaton
Advice and possibly help needed
Help and a quick check, if possible:
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published) is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know. All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
And, finally, my request: Does anyone have access to an electronic image of
this will or, and this is a big request, could a peak of it be taken on ones
next visit to Canterbury.
If there is a question of a fee involved, please let me know off line.
Ultimately, as a volunteer president, I will be writing a story about this
for our family Association's web site and for the benefit of members. If a
professional wants to do this for publicqation in a scholarly journal or
newsletter, then I would be open to discussing the reserving of such
non-family publication rights and a trade.
This line of inquiry/enquiry stems from more than 100 years of ducumented
research that remains incomplete in some significant ways, the seal issue
being one of them with a U.s.-based effortt being hampered by inability to
access the canterbury record.
Can someone take a peak to see if there is a fret on the seal and, if not,
what emblazon might be present? If not, can someone tell me how I might get
this done? Can one just write to Canterbury?
Many thanks for your response, small or outrageously generous.
Rick
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published) is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know. All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
And, finally, my request: Does anyone have access to an electronic image of
this will or, and this is a big request, could a peak of it be taken on ones
next visit to Canterbury.
If there is a question of a fee involved, please let me know off line.
Ultimately, as a volunteer president, I will be writing a story about this
for our family Association's web site and for the benefit of members. If a
professional wants to do this for publicqation in a scholarly journal or
newsletter, then I would be open to discussing the reserving of such
non-family publication rights and a trade.
This line of inquiry/enquiry stems from more than 100 years of ducumented
research that remains incomplete in some significant ways, the seal issue
being one of them with a U.s.-based effortt being hampered by inability to
access the canterbury record.
Can someone take a peak to see if there is a fret on the seal and, if not,
what emblazon might be present? If not, can someone tell me how I might get
this done? Can one just write to Canterbury?
Many thanks for your response, small or outrageously generous.
Rick
-
Chris Dickinson
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
Rick Eaton wrote:
<snip>
A warning about this. There are two problems in terms of proof.
(1) the seal may not be the seal of the person mentioned in the document but
the seal of a notary;
(2) heraldry cannot be used for proof at gentry level or below. People in
the early modern period had exactly the same genealogical ambitions and
assumptions as people today - if your Eatons wanted or thought that they
were related to another set of armorial Eatons, then they would use that
coat-of-arms, whether they were entitled to do so or no, whether the
families were connected or not. Tough, but that's the way the heraldic
cookie crumbles.
Chris
<snip>
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published)
is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent,
snip
All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons
of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with
the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
snip
A warning about this. There are two problems in terms of proof.
(1) the seal may not be the seal of the person mentioned in the document but
the seal of a notary;
(2) heraldry cannot be used for proof at gentry level or below. People in
the early modern period had exactly the same genealogical ambitions and
assumptions as people today - if your Eatons wanted or thought that they
were related to another set of armorial Eatons, then they would use that
coat-of-arms, whether they were entitled to do so or no, whether the
families were connected or not. Tough, but that's the way the heraldic
cookie crumbles.
Chris
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
In article <BE40D62F.1A09%eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>,
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
1. Do you know the precise jurisdiction of this will? Dover probates
were either under the juristiction of the Archdeaconry Court of
Canterbury, or the Consistory Court of Canterbury. Either way, there are
various volumes of indexes and whole runs of original documents on film
in the FHL system. Search the FHL library site
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... t_fhlc.asp
for author:
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
or
Church of England. Archdeaconry of Canterbury. Court
2. What is the evidence by which this testator appears to be grandfather
of John Eaton of Dedham, Mass.?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
Help and a quick check, if possible:
... reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent
(reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know...
1. Do you know the precise jurisdiction of this will? Dover probates
were either under the juristiction of the Archdeaconry Court of
Canterbury, or the Consistory Court of Canterbury. Either way, there are
various volumes of indexes and whole runs of original documents on film
in the FHL system. Search the FHL library site
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... t_fhlc.asp
for author:
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
or
Church of England. Archdeaconry of Canterbury. Court
2. What is the evidence by which this testator appears to be grandfather
of John Eaton of Dedham, Mass.?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
starbuck95
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
What is the evidence by which this testator appears to be grandfather
of John Eaton of Dedham, Mass.?
I think there is something about this in Nellie Zada Rice Molyneux,
_History, Genealogical and Biographical, of the Eaton Families_ (New
York, 1911). A generally awful book, but it did provide me with one
detail I didn't know about my Nova Scotia great-great-great grandfather
(he was a caulker).
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
In article <1109102051.022097.186310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"starbuck95" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:
She's marvellous: it's not this book, but I think another, in which she
tells us that William Mullins of the Mayflower was a descendant of
Abelard & Heloise.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
"starbuck95" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:
What is the evidence by which this testator appears to be grandfather
of John Eaton of Dedham, Mass.?
I think there is something about this in Nellie Zada Rice Molyneux,
_History, Genealogical and Biographical, of the Eaton Families_ (New
York, 1911). A generally awful book, but it did provide me with one
detail I didn't know about my Nova Scotia great-great-great grandfather
(he was a caulker).
She's marvellous: it's not this book, but I think another, in which she
tells us that William Mullins of the Mayflower was a descendant of
Abelard & Heloise.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
starbuck95
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
The woman couldn't index to save her life. There was also a very wacky
numbering system in place, as I recall --
numbering system in place, as I recall --
-
Renia
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
What year was the will proved or written? Are you talking of Henry Eaton
or William Eaton? It isn't clear to me.
Renia
Rick Eaton wrote:
or William Eaton? It isn't clear to me.
Renia
Rick Eaton wrote:
Help and a quick check, if possible:
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published) is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know. All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
And, finally, my request: Does anyone have access to an electronic image of
this will or, and this is a big request, could a peak of it be taken on ones
next visit to Canterbury.
If there is a question of a fee involved, please let me know off line.
Ultimately, as a volunteer president, I will be writing a story about this
for our family Association's web site and for the benefit of members. If a
professional wants to do this for publicqation in a scholarly journal or
newsletter, then I would be open to discussing the reserving of such
non-family publication rights and a trade.
This line of inquiry/enquiry stems from more than 100 years of ducumented
research that remains incomplete in some significant ways, the seal issue
being one of them with a U.s.-based effortt being hampered by inability to
access the canterbury record.
Can someone take a peak to see if there is a fret on the seal and, if not,
what emblazon might be present? If not, can someone tell me how I might get
this done? Can one just write to Canterbury?
Many thanks for your response, small or outrageously generous.
Rick
-
Renia
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
Nothing apparent on searchable database at the PRO web site.
Renia
Rick Eaton wrote:
Renia
Rick Eaton wrote:
Help and a quick check, if possible:
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published) is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know. All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
And, finally, my request: Does anyone have access to an electronic image of
this will or, and this is a big request, could a peak of it be taken on ones
next visit to Canterbury.
If there is a question of a fee involved, please let me know off line.
Ultimately, as a volunteer president, I will be writing a story about this
for our family Association's web site and for the benefit of members. If a
professional wants to do this for publicqation in a scholarly journal or
newsletter, then I would be open to discussing the reserving of such
non-family publication rights and a trade.
This line of inquiry/enquiry stems from more than 100 years of ducumented
research that remains incomplete in some significant ways, the seal issue
being one of them with a U.s.-based effortt being hampered by inability to
access the canterbury record.
Can someone take a peak to see if there is a fret on the seal and, if not,
what emblazon might be present? If not, can someone tell me how I might get
this done? Can one just write to Canterbury?
Many thanks for your response, small or outrageously generous.
Rick
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
The subject person is William Eaton. His will was proved on 1 January
1581/82. The inventory, obviously a partial list (This is still done today,
isn't it?) was filed with the Consistory Court of Canterbury, Liber (book)
1579-82, f. 9i assume this abbreviation to be folio) 177. He died m1584 and
was buried at St.James Church. St. James was bombed during WWII and its
records, not already on file at canterbury, did not survive. I assume this
to be true of tomb s and markers as well.
[NAMERick Eatonrenia@DELETEotenet.greaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
1581/82. The inventory, obviously a partial list (This is still done today,
isn't it?) was filed with the Consistory Court of Canterbury, Liber (book)
1579-82, f. 9i assume this abbreviation to be folio) 177. He died m1584 and
was buried at St.James Church. St. James was bombed during WWII and its
records, not already on file at canterbury, did not survive. I assume this
to be true of tomb s and markers as well.
[NAMERick Eatonrenia@DELETEotenet.greaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
What year was the will proved or written? Are you talking of Henry Eaton
or William Eaton? It isn't clear to me.
Renia
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
Thanks for looking. What PRO web site are you talking about?
R
[NAMERick Eatonrenia@DELETEotenet.greaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
R
[NAMERick Eatonrenia@DELETEotenet.greaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Nothing apparent on searchable database at the PRO web site.
Renia
Rick Eaton wrote:
Help and a quick check, if possible:
Published and recerntly professionally researched (but not yet published) is
a solid reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584; buried at St,
Jamess Church, Dove but parishioner of St. Mary's; merchant, apparent ships
owner with interests in France, Belgium and Holland); Dover jurat, mayor and
officer of the Cinque Ports) and apparent grandfather of the U.S, emigrant,
John Eaton of Dedham (Massachusetts) attached to his will. The will is on
file at Canterbury but has not been viewed in more than 100 years. The seal
was never described as far as I know. All evidence to date points to the
conclusion that the Eatons of Dover and elsewhere descend from the eytons of
Shropshire and the eytons/Aeatons of Wales and eeatons of cheshire, with the
base root in Shropshire and going back to pantulph and/or Warin.
So, the seal becomes critical to proof. If it bears heraldic signatures of
the Weald more, Shropshire aeytons, they quasi-mystery is solved.
And, finally, my request: Does anyone have access to an electronic image of
this will or, and this is a big request, could a peak of it be taken on ones
next visit to Canterbury.
If there is a question of a fee involved, please let me know off line.
Ultimately, as a volunteer president, I will be writing a story about this
for our family Association's web site and for the benefit of members. If a
professional wants to do this for publicqation in a scholarly journal or
newsletter, then I would be open to discussing the reserving of such
non-family publication rights and a trade.
This line of inquiry/enquiry stems from more than 100 years of ducumented
research that remains incomplete in some significant ways, the seal issue
being one of them with a U.s.-based effortt being hampered by inability to
access the canterbury record.
Can someone take a peak to see if there is a fret on the seal and, if not,
what emblazon might be present? If not, can someone tell me how I might get
this done? Can one just write to Canterbury?
Many thanks for your response, small or outrageously generous.
Rick
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
In article <BE4156F6.1A5B%eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>,
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
Renia was referring to the wills of the 'Prerogative Court of
Canterbury', sort of a 'supreme court' covering all probate jurisdiction
south of York, whose wills, from 1384 to 1858, are available digitally
for 3.50 UK pounds each from the National Archives (formerly the Public
Record Office), and can be searched at:
http://www.documentsonline.nationalarch ... /wills.asp
The introductory page explains the jurisdiction. Prior to 1858 ...
So (and I checked the on-line index, too) your man's will is not here,
but likely in one of the two lower courts for probates within the local
diocese of Canterbury itself (roughly equivalent to the county of Kent),
which, as I posted earlier, are available in large sets of microfilm
through the FHL system.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
Renia wrote:
Rick Eaton wrote:
Help and a quick check, if possible:
... reference to a seal used by Willial Eaton of Dover, Kent, (
reputedly son of Sir. Henry and jane Cressett; d. c 1584 ...
Nothing apparent on searchable database at the PRO web site.
Thanks for looking. What PRO web site are you talking about?
Renia was referring to the wills of the 'Prerogative Court of
Canterbury', sort of a 'supreme court' covering all probate jurisdiction
south of York, whose wills, from 1384 to 1858, are available digitally
for 3.50 UK pounds each from the National Archives (formerly the Public
Record Office), and can be searched at:
http://www.documentsonline.nationalarch ... /wills.asp
The introductory page explains the jurisdiction. Prior to 1858 ...
... all wills had to be proved (formally approved) by church ...
courts. The Prerogative Court of Canterbury, the most important of
these courts, dealt with the relatively wealthy individuals living mainly in
the south of England and most of Wales (what was originally the
ecclesiastical province of Canterbury)...
So (and I checked the on-line index, too) your man's will is not here,
but likely in one of the two lower courts for probates within the local
diocese of Canterbury itself (roughly equivalent to the county of Kent),
which, as I posted earlier, are available in large sets of microfilm
through the FHL system.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
Rick Eaton wrote:
These records seem to be at the Centre for Kentish Studies at Maidstone
(though it's not easy to verify this on their website).
They have a research service, though it's not particularly cheap:
http://www.kent.gov.uk/e&l/artslib/arch ... quest.html
Chris Phillips
The subject person is William Eaton. His will was proved on 1 January
1581/82. The inventory, obviously a partial list (This is still done
today,
isn't it?) was filed with the Consistory Court of Canterbury, Liber (book)
1579-82, f. 9i assume this abbreviation to be folio) 177. He died m1584
and
was buried at St.James Church. St. James was bombed during WWII and its
records, not already on file at canterbury, did not survive. I assume this
to be true of tomb s and markers as well.
These records seem to be at the Centre for Kentish Studies at Maidstone
(though it's not easy to verify this on their website).
They have a research service, though it's not particularly cheap:
http://www.kent.gov.uk/e&l/artslib/arch ... quest.html
Chris Phillips
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Advice and possibly help needed
In article <BE413980.1A45%eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>,
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
First off, note that a will is only 'proved' after a testator has died,
so your date of death or date or probate must be wrong (though I can't
interpret "m1584" for his death date).
You can get probate records from this jurisdiction on FHL microfilm at a
LDS place near you, for $3.50 / reel. The master FHL catalogue lists
three independent film sets of probate records from this court, as
follows. I've pasted in the possibly relevant film reels (each main
entry has a reel-by-reel list attached):
1.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Probate records, 1542-1857, Kent Co., England
Filmed 1958
35 reels
reel you might want:
Accts. & Invt. Regs., v. 5 1580-1582, FHL BRITISH Film 189242
I'm not sure why the inventory would have the deceased testator's seal
on it, though (unless the seal was used by the executor / heir in
signing the administration bond). If his original sealed will survives,
it would be in a will series, not inventory:
2.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Wills, bonds, account papers, etc., 1555-1857
Filmed 1983-1984
110 reels
reel: Original copy wills 1578-1582, FHL BRITISH Film 1066933
Note there is a third series of 82 reels:
3.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Probate records, 1396-1857
Filmed 1958
82 reels
which has distinct sets of copy & original wills & administrations. The
relevant will register would be:
Reg. copy wills, v. 34-35, 1574-1586, FHL BRITISH Film 188848
but there is a gap in the inventory registers, as you can see:
Inventories, v. 1-2, 1566-1569, FHL BRITISH Film 188894
Inventories, v. 3, 1597-1604, FHL BRITISH Film 188895
As I've noticed with other jurisdictions, separate film sets don't
appear easily to correspond with each other.
Your best bet may be to pay a local researcher at Maidstone, Kent to
root through this stuff.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net (Rick Eaton) wrote:
Renia asked:
What year was the will proved or written? Are you talking of Henry Eaton
or William Eaton? It isn't clear to me.
The subject person is William Eaton. His will was proved on 1 January
1581/82. The inventory, obviously a partial list (This is still done today,
isn't it?) was filed with the Consistory Court of Canterbury, Liber (book)
1579-82, f. 9i assume this abbreviation to be folio) 177. He died m1584 and
was buried at St.James Church. St. James was bombed during WWII and its
records, not already on file at canterbury, did not survive. I assume this
to be true of tomb s and markers as well.
First off, note that a will is only 'proved' after a testator has died,
so your date of death or date or probate must be wrong (though I can't
interpret "m1584" for his death date).
You can get probate records from this jurisdiction on FHL microfilm at a
LDS place near you, for $3.50 / reel. The master FHL catalogue lists
three independent film sets of probate records from this court, as
follows. I've pasted in the possibly relevant film reels (each main
entry has a reel-by-reel list attached):
1.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Probate records, 1542-1857, Kent Co., England
Filmed 1958
35 reels
reel you might want:
Accts. & Invt. Regs., v. 5 1580-1582, FHL BRITISH Film 189242
I'm not sure why the inventory would have the deceased testator's seal
on it, though (unless the seal was used by the executor / heir in
signing the administration bond). If his original sealed will survives,
it would be in a will series, not inventory:
2.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Wills, bonds, account papers, etc., 1555-1857
Filmed 1983-1984
110 reels
reel: Original copy wills 1578-1582, FHL BRITISH Film 1066933
Note there is a third series of 82 reels:
3.
Church of England. Diocese of Canterbury. Consistory Court
Probate records, 1396-1857
Filmed 1958
82 reels
which has distinct sets of copy & original wills & administrations. The
relevant will register would be:
Reg. copy wills, v. 34-35, 1574-1586, FHL BRITISH Film 188848
but there is a gap in the inventory registers, as you can see:
Inventories, v. 1-2, 1566-1569, FHL BRITISH Film 188894
Inventories, v. 3, 1597-1604, FHL BRITISH Film 188895
As I've noticed with other jurisdictions, separate film sets don't
appear easily to correspond with each other.
Your best bet may be to pay a local researcher at Maidstone, Kent to
root through this stuff.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/