father of Gwenevere

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Paul K Davis

father of Gwenevere

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 20 feb 2005 19:21:01

As indicated by others, Gwenevere, wife of "king" Arthur, is probably
fictional. Nevertheless, there is an answer to the question, just as with,
for instance, the question of Harry Potter's parents. In the case of
Gwenevere, there is some small chance the answer is true, as well as
correct.

On page 31 of the introductory material in Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies:
300 - 1400" [which I have found both in the Library of Congress and in the
New York Public Library], the is an entry for "GWENHWYFAR = ARTHUR". Her
parent (presumably father) is given as "GWYTHYR", whose parent is in turn
"GREIDIOL GAOLFYDD", who is one of three children of the couple: "ENFAEL
ADRAN = Perwyr f. Crydr Fychan ap Crydr Fawr of Caerwent". Enfael's
parents are: "DEIGR, Lord of Tref-y-deigr [Tredegar], Caerllion & Gwynllwg
= Arianwen f. Cyndrwyn Fychan ap Cyndrwyn Fawr ab Aelfred, K. of Cornwall".
Deigr's ancestry is given on page 19, and Arthur's on page 25.

This is probably the earliest claim concerning Gwenevere's ancestry.

I think Arthur was probably a real person who led some Britton resistance
against the Saxons. He was probably not a king, but a general-in-chief
agreed to by several kings. His ancestry, his family, his round table,
etc. etc. are probably all later fantasies. Some of his knights may be
based on real people.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: father of Gwenevere

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 20 feb 2005 21:09:20

Paul K Davis wrote:
As indicated by others, Gwenevere, wife of "king" Arthur, is probably
fictional. Nevertheless, there is an answer to the question, just as with,
for instance, the question of Harry Potter's parents. In the case of
Gwenevere, there is some small chance the answer is true, as well as
correct.

Doubtful.

On page 31 of the introductory material in Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies:
300 - 1400" [which I have found both in the Library of Congress and in the
New York Public Library],

It should be kept in mind that Bartrum was presenting what the
welsh pedigrees said, and evaluating their accuracy as
representations of the original pedigree tradition (i.e. which of
two surviving versions represents the likely original version),
not based on the accuracy of the genealogical relationships
presented therein.

the is an entry for "GWENHWYFAR = ARTHUR". Her
parent (presumably father) is given as "GWYTHYR", whose parent is in turn
"GREIDIOL GAOLFYDD", who is one of three children of the couple: "ENFAEL
ADRAN = Perwyr f. Crydr Fychan ap Crydr Fawr of Caerwent". Enfael's
parents are: "DEIGR, Lord of Tref-y-deigr [Tredegar], Caerllion & Gwynllwg
= Arianwen f. Cyndrwyn Fychan ap Cyndrwyn Fawr ab Aelfred, K. of Cornwall".
Deigr's ancestry is given on page 19, and Arthur's on page 25.

Do you think it likely that there would be a cornish king with
such an utterly anglo-saxon name as Alfred 7 generations before
Gwenevere?

This is probably the earliest claim concerning Gwenevere's ancestry.

What is the date for this pedigree. If the earliest claim is
still 700 years after the fact, then it is of no real value.

taf

Paul K Davis

Re: father of Gwenevere

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 20 feb 2005 22:20:03

I agree with Todd.

Looking slightly more carefully at the page I quote, I see it is captioned
"LEGENDARY". A note at the bottom says "Parts in small letters are
additions by Lewys Dwnn in Pen. 268 p. 94 (=LD.ii.98). See EWGT pp.
149-150". Lewys Dwnn, I know, was active in the years 1586 and 1613, a
millenium after the subject.

I apoligize for not having included the above information in my original
posting.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/20/2005 12:14:57 PM
Subject: Re: father of Gwenevere

Paul K Davis wrote:
As indicated by others, Gwenevere, wife of "king" Arthur, is probably
fictional. Nevertheless, there is an answer to the question, just as
with,
for instance, the question of Harry Potter's parents. In the case of
Gwenevere, there is some small chance the answer is true, as well as
correct.

Doubtful.

On page 31 of the introductory material in Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies:
300 - 1400" [which I have found both in the Library of Congress and in
the
New York Public Library],

It should be kept in mind that Bartrum was presenting what the
welsh pedigrees said, and evaluating their accuracy as
representations of the original pedigree tradition (i.e. which of
two surviving versions represents the likely original version),
not based on the accuracy of the genealogical relationships
presented therein.

the is an entry for "GWENHWYFAR = ARTHUR". Her
parent (presumably father) is given as "GWYTHYR", whose parent is in
turn
"GREIDIOL GAOLFYDD", who is one of three children of the couple: "ENFAEL
ADRAN = Perwyr f. Crydr Fychan ap Crydr Fawr of Caerwent". Enfael's
parents are: "DEIGR, Lord of Tref-y-deigr [Tredegar], Caerllion &
Gwynllwg
= Arianwen f. Cyndrwyn Fychan ap Cyndrwyn Fawr ab Aelfred, K. of
Cornwall".
Deigr's ancestry is given on page 19, and Arthur's on page 25.

Do you think it likely that there would be a cornish king with
such an utterly anglo-saxon name as Alfred 7 generations before
Gwenevere?

This is probably the earliest claim concerning Gwenevere's ancestry.

What is the date for this pedigree. If the earliest claim is
still 700 years after the fact, then it is of no real value.

taf

TOF

Re: father of Gwenevere

Legg inn av TOF » 21 feb 2005 15:51:01

I always understood that Guinevere was, like Lancelot, a figment of the
imagination of Chretien de Troyes (sp?).
Although Merlin ( as Myrddin, I believe) existed as a bard it was not during
the same period as the possibly historical "Arthur".
A

""Paul K Davis"" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-22005202021104289@earthlink.net...
I agree with Todd.

Looking slightly more carefully at the page I quote, I see it is captioned
"LEGENDARY". A note at the bottom says "Parts in small letters are
additions by Lewys Dwnn in Pen. 268 p. 94 (=LD.ii.98). See EWGT pp.
149-150". Lewys Dwnn, I know, was active in the years 1586 and 1613, a
millenium after the subject.

I apoligize for not having included the above information in my original
posting.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/20/2005 12:14:57 PM
Subject: Re: father of Gwenevere

Paul K Davis wrote:
As indicated by others, Gwenevere, wife of "king" Arthur, is probably
fictional. Nevertheless, there is an answer to the question, just as
with,
for instance, the question of Harry Potter's parents. In the case of
Gwenevere, there is some small chance the answer is true, as well as
correct.

Doubtful.

On page 31 of the introductory material in Bartrum's "Welsh
Genealogies:
300 - 1400" [which I have found both in the Library of Congress and in
the
New York Public Library],

It should be kept in mind that Bartrum was presenting what the
welsh pedigrees said, and evaluating their accuracy as
representations of the original pedigree tradition (i.e. which of
two surviving versions represents the likely original version),
not based on the accuracy of the genealogical relationships
presented therein.

the is an entry for "GWENHWYFAR = ARTHUR". Her
parent (presumably father) is given as "GWYTHYR", whose parent is in
turn
"GREIDIOL GAOLFYDD", who is one of three children of the couple:
"ENFAEL
ADRAN = Perwyr f. Crydr Fychan ap Crydr Fawr of Caerwent". Enfael's
parents are: "DEIGR, Lord of Tref-y-deigr [Tredegar], Caerllion &
Gwynllwg
= Arianwen f. Cyndrwyn Fychan ap Cyndrwyn Fawr ab Aelfred, K. of
Cornwall".
Deigr's ancestry is given on page 19, and Arthur's on page 25.

Do you think it likely that there would be a cornish king with
such an utterly anglo-saxon name as Alfred 7 generations before
Gwenevere?

This is probably the earliest claim concerning Gwenevere's ancestry.

What is the date for this pedigree. If the earliest claim is
still 700 years after the fact, then it is of no real value.

taf

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