[OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

[OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2005 21:51:02

In a message dated 2/18/2005 9:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

13) High Priest Amariah
14) High Priest Ahitub
15) High Priest Zadok
16) High Priest Ahim-az
17) High Priest Azariah
18) High Priest Johanan
19) High Priest Azariah
20) High Priest Amariah
21) High Priest Ahitub
22) High Priest Zadok
23) High Priest Shallum

I will discuss this line a bit more. Last night I was checking to see if
perhaps there was a source for this line in the Bible.

Removing the "High Priest" nonsense we can find this line in 1 Chr 6:1-15.
However let us caution ourselves since this line CONTINUES by saying "Zadok
father of Shallum [as above] father of Hilkiah father of Azariah [as if we didn't
already have enough Azariahs!] father of Seraiah father of Jehozadak and
[emphasis here!] Jehozadak WENT INTO EXILE when the Lord sent Judah and Jerusalem
into exile by the hand of Nebuchadnezzer."

Now the bible is naturally a self-referent work and any "high priest" should
be mentioned in several places you would think. So cross-referencing I
discovered that THIS SAME LINE leads to Ezra in the following manner:
Ezra 7:1-5
Ezra son of Seraiah son of Azariah son of Hilkiah son of Shallum son of Zadok
son of Ahitub son of Amariah son of Azariah son of ...

Checking this list against the above presented list we can see that some
scribe subjected the list in 1 Chron to dittography IN ADDITION to which we have
to conclude that Ezra was alive to RETURN from exile and yet quite some time
earlier, his brother was SENT into this same exile. Perhaps someone can give a
reasonable timeline that would allow that taking into account the stated length
of that exile.

And there's no reason to suppose that Ezra's brother ever was styled High
Priest. If so we'd read about it IN Ezra no doubt. But we don't.

Will Johnson

Curt Nilsen

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Curt Nilsen » 20 feb 2005 02:15:52

The comments regarding Ezra are interesting. I'll need to look into
this more.

I've done some more research & have a cleaned up list below (the
initial posting had an extra Azarias). The reference is found below
each name.

I still don't have a decent reference for how the Hasmoneans connect to
Jason & Onias. Josephus mentions that Mattathias is the great grandson
of Asamoneus, "a priest of the order of Joarib" - but I'm not sure who
Joarib is or where he fits in.


**********************************************
A lineage of Jewish High Priests

1) Jacob (Israel)
Genesis 46

2) Levi
Genesis 46

3) Kohath.
Genesis 46

4) Amram
Exodus 6:18

5) Aaron
Exodus 6:20

6) Eleazar
Exodus 6:23

7) Phinehas
Exodus 6:25

8) Abishua
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

9) Bukki
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

10) Uzzi
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

11) Zerahiah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

12) Meraioth
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

13) Amariah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

14) Ahitub
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

15) Zadok
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

16) Ahim-az
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

17) Azariah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

18) Johanan
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

19) Azariah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

20) Amariah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

21) Ahitub
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

22) Zadok
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

23) Shallum
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

24) Hilkiah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

25) Azariah.
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

26) Seraiah
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

27) Jehozadak
1 Chronicles 6:4-14

28) Joshua (AKA Jeshua)
Haggai 1:1

29) Joiakim
Nehemiah 12:10-11

30) Eliashib
Nehemiah 12:10-11

31) Joiada
Nehemiah 12:10-11

32) Jonathan
Nehemiah 12:10-11

33) Jaddua
Nehemiah 12:10-11

34) Onias I
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XI, viii, 7

35) Simon The Just
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII, ii, 5

36) Onias II
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII, vi, 1

37) Jason (AKA Jesus, Josue; brother of Onias III)
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII, v, 1

(???? I still don't have a good reference which shows how Asamoneus is
connected to Jason or Onias. Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII,
vi, 1 states that "Now at this time there was one whose name was
Mattathias, who dwelt at Modin, the son of John, the son of Simeon, the
son of Asamoneus, a priest of the order of Joarib, and a citizen of
Jerusalem." )

38) Asamoneus

39) Simeon
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII, vi, 1

40) John
1 Maccabees 2:1

41) Mattathias.
1 Maccabees 2:1

42) Simon Maccabees, King of Judea
1 Maccabees 2:1

43) John Hyracanus
1 Maccabees 13:53
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XIII, vii, 4

44) Alexandra (married Alexander the son of Aristobulus II)
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XV, ii, 5

45) Mariamne I Maccabaeus (married Herod "The Great" King Of Judea)
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XV, ii, 5

---------------------------

Internet Links that proved useful:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/r/rsv/ - Can search the bible, including the
Apocrypha

http://www.biblegateway.com/ - A great online Bible, lots of different
versions, no Apocrypha

http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/works.htm - The works of Josephus
online

Gjest

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2005 03:11:01

Nevertheless, you have the problem that Ezra is returning from captivity as a
leader designate while his brother had gone into captivity some .. seventy
years earlier? That's hardly within bounds of reason. Remembering that at this
time they had normal life-spans. Unless you postulate that Ezra's brother
was 50 or so years younger than Ezra was which isn't very likely.
Will

R. Battle

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av R. Battle » 20 feb 2005 03:20:49

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Curt Nilsen wrote:

<snip>
I still don't have a decent reference for how the Hasmoneans connect to
Jason & Onias. Josephus mentions that Mattathias is the great grandson
of Asamoneus, "a priest of the order of Joarib" - but I'm not sure who
Joarib is or where he fits in.
snip


What makes you think that the Hasmoneans connect to Jason and Onias by the
former descending from the latter (rather than by common priestly
descent)? I know of no source, reputable or not, that claims an Oniad
descent for the Hasmoneans. With regard to the "order of Joarib" that is
probably in reference to one of the priestly families/orders mentioned in
1 Chronicles 24:7 and Nehemiah 12:19 (J(eh)oiarib).

-Robert Battle

Curt Nilsen

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Curt Nilsen » 20 feb 2005 07:03:14

Robert -

Here's a few internet sites that show a linkage between Onias I/II &
the Hasmoneans. Your thoughts on Joarib are most likely correct.
Unfortunately, I can't find much more information about him.

http://www.loebtree.com/hp.html

http://www.american-pictures.com/geneal ... efault.htm

http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/


Will -

Your Ezra timeline issue is intriguing. I'm very new at much of
this, but I wonder if Ezra & his "much younger" brother were
actually step brothers. Having children with multiple women was
certainly common in those days. Perhaps Ezra's dad found a young
wife late in his life (Anna Nicole Smith's 60th great grandma?)

Gjest

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2005 07:51:02

In a message dated 2/19/2005 10:09:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
VIking-Roots@comcast.net writes:

Your Ezra timeline issue is intriguing. I'm very new at much of
this, but I wonder if Ezra &his "much younger" brother were
actually step brothers. Having children with multiple women was
certainly common in those days. Perhaps Ezra's dad found a young
wife late in his life (Anna Nicole Smith's 60th great grandma?)

It will be hard to get around the fact that there are missing generations
however, unless you're willing to accept the theory that "son" means
"descendent". The Ezra genealogy and the I Chr genealogy don't have the same number of
generations. I sent you the comparison privately.
You have the brother relationship backward. It is Ezra that has to be much
younger. The one brother went to the exile and quite some time later Ezra is
returning from it. So it's Ezra that would be the younger one.
Will

David Webb

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av David Webb » 20 feb 2005 15:43:22

maybe Ezra was born in Babylon? His older brother went into exile and his
Dad had him later in Babylon, as the exile was only 70 years it is possible
for him to lead the return? Even if he was born in Palestine, he could still
be eg 75 on the return from exile?


<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:88.20e1224a.2f498bf0@aol.com...
In a message dated 2/19/2005 10:09:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
VIking-Roots@comcast.net writes:

Your Ezra timeline issue is intriguing. I'm very new at much of
this, but I wonder if Ezra &his "much younger" brother were
actually step brothers. Having children with multiple women was
certainly common in those days. Perhaps Ezra's dad found a young
wife late in his life (Anna Nicole Smith's 60th great grandma?)

It will be hard to get around the fact that there are missing generations
however, unless you're willing to accept the theory that "son" means
"descendent". The Ezra genealogy and the I Chr genealogy don't have the
same number of
generations. I sent you the comparison privately.
You have the brother relationship backward. It is Ezra that has to be
much
younger. The one brother went to the exile and quite some time later Ezra
is
returning from it. So it's Ezra that would be the younger one.
Will

Paul K Davis

Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 20 feb 2005 20:31:04

In fact, the statement "of the order of Joarib" very likely means
agnatically descended from Joarib, and thus could be considered a disproof
of the descent from Onias originally posted.

There is still the possibility of a female line connection between the
Hasmoneans and the Zadokite high priests. I believe I have seen such on
the internet, but would guess it's unfounded.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: R. Battle <battle@u.washington.edu
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/19/2005 6:23:31 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Curt Nilsen wrote:

snip
I still don't have a decent reference for how the Hasmoneans connect to
Jason & Onias. Josephus mentions that Mattathias is the great grandson
of Asamoneus, "a priest of the order of Joarib" - but I'm not sure who
Joarib is or where he fits in.
snip

What makes you think that the Hasmoneans connect to Jason and Onias by
the
former descending from the latter (rather than by common priestly
descent)? I know of no source, reputable or not, that claims an Oniad
descent for the Hasmoneans. With regard to the "order of Joarib" that is
probably in reference to one of the priestly families/orders mentioned in
1 Chronicles 24:7 and Nehemiah 12:19 (J(eh)oiarib).

-Robert Battle

Gjest

Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 feb 2005 15:03:54

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
In fact, the statement "of the order of Joarib" very likely means
agnatically descended from Joarib, and thus could be considered a
disproof
of the descent from Onias originally posted.

There is still the possibility of a female line connection between
the
Hasmoneans and the Zadokite high priests. I believe I have seen such
on
the internet, but would guess it's unfounded.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: R. Battle <battle@u.washington.edu
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/19/2005 6:23:31 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lineage of Jewish High Priests ?

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Curt Nilsen wrote:

snip
I still don't have a decent reference for how the Hasmoneans
connect to
Jason & Onias. Josephus mentions that Mattathias is the great
grandson
of Asamoneus, "a priest of the order of Joarib" - but I'm not
sure who
Joarib is or where he fits in.
snip

What makes you think that the Hasmoneans connect to Jason and Onias
by
the
former descending from the latter (rather than by common priestly
descent)? I know of no source, reputable or not, that claims an
Oniad
descent for the Hasmoneans. With regard to the "order of Joarib"
that is
probably in reference to one of the priestly families/orders
mentioned in
1 Chronicles 24:7 and Nehemiah 12:19 (J(eh)oiarib).

-Robert Battle

All of the historical texts I checked say that the Hasmoneans were
usurpers and that they were of a non-Zadokite sect of the Kohanim. If
there were any agnatic connection it would have to be many generations
back.

Also, the chronology does not work for "Jason" to be in that position
in the Zadokite line and also be a father of Asmoneus.

Doug Smith

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»