Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

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Tony Hoskins

Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 feb 2005 20:10:02

Limited at the moment to but two sources, 1) Richardson's _Plantagenet
Ancestry_ , p. 487, and the reprint of the Mallory genealogy in
_Genealogies of Virginia Families_ (1981), 4:253-4, I wonder if anyone
would kindly indicate which is correct.

Sir William Mallory (died in 1499, husband of Joan Constable) of
Studley and Hutton Conyers, Yorks, is said in 1) to be son of Elizabeth
Curwen, daughter of Sir William Curwen and in 2) to be son of Isabel
Hamerton, daughter of Lawrence Hamerton, of Hamerton (in Craven),
Lancs.

Thanks for any information.

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California

Gjest

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 feb 2005 20:21:26

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:00:27 +0000 (UTC), hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us ("Tony
Hoskins") wrote:

Limited at the moment to but two sources, 1) Richardson's _Plantagenet
Ancestry_ , p. 487, and the reprint of the Mallory genealogy in
_Genealogies of Virginia Families_ (1981), 4:253-4, I wonder if anyone
would kindly indicate which is correct.

Sir William Mallory (died in 1499, husband of Joan Constable) of
Studley and Hutton Conyers, Yorks, is said in 1) to be son of Elizabeth
Curwen, daughter of Sir William Curwen and in 2) to be son of Isabel
Hamerton, daughter of Lawrence Hamerton, of Hamerton (in Craven),
Lancs.

Thanks for any information.

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~addams/p ... llory.html is a little out of
date, but for this point follows 2) above.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 feb 2005 09:36:35

Dear Tony ~

You've asked an excellent question about the mother of William Mallory.
I believe I relied on Clay's book for the name of William Mallory's
mother. Clay is usually reliable. However, when I checked the
available visitations tonight at the library, I found that one
visitation gave Elizabeth Curwen as William Mallory's mother, one gave
Isabel Hamerton as the mother. Another visitation listed both women!
Yikes!

The most reliable of the various visitations, however, is the
Visitation of the North taken c. 1490 in the lifetime of William
Mallory himself. This visitation identifies William's mother as
Elizabeth, daughter of William Hamerton, Knt. [Reference: Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 148-149 (Malory
pedigree)].

In any event, checking through the extended Mallory pedigree, I noted a
descent for the Mallory family from Robert de Roos, the Magna Carta
baron, through the Plumpton, Pigot, and Norton families. I assembled
the line and added it to the Magna Carta Ancestry manuscript. So,
besides correcting the name of William Mallory's mother in my
manuscript, you have a new Magna Carta line for your Mallory family.
Woo hoo!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
Limited at the moment to but two sources, 1) Richardson's
_Plantagenet
Ancestry_ , p. 487, and the reprint of the Mallory genealogy in
_Genealogies of Virginia Families_ (1981), 4:253-4, I wonder if
anyone
would kindly indicate which is correct.

Sir William Mallory (died in 1499, husband of Joan Constable) of
Studley and Hutton Conyers, Yorks, is said in 1) to be son of
Elizabeth
Curwen, daughter of Sir William Curwen and in 2) to be son of Isabel
Hamerton, daughter of Lawrence Hamerton, of Hamerton (in Craven),
Lancs.

Thanks for any information.

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 feb 2005 13:46:36

In message of 19 Feb, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

The most reliable of the various visitations, however, is the
Visitation of the North taken c. 1490 in the lifetime of William
Mallory himself. This visitation identifies William's mother as
Elizabeth, daughter of William Hamerton, Knt. [Reference: Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 148-149 (Malory
pedigree)].

Interestingly the editor of this volume goes to some length to
establish that he thinks that the original, but now lost, document was
created by someone who met with members of the various families.
However he is not clear that it was a visitation and says of his prime
document (Ashmole 831 from the Bodleian Library):

"The manuscript is thus a copy made by Robert Glover (1544-88),
pursuivant and herald, of an old manuscript, now lost, which may have
been the official record of an heraldic visitation of the northern
counties in the later part of the fifteenth century.

"The names of the possible visiting heralds are unknown ..."

Glover probably made his copy after he was 20, that is no earlier than
1564.

A copy of the same source was also made by Roger Dodsworth who lived
from 1585-1654, so this dates from little earlier than 1605. The
editor added in Dodsworth's information, or that lack of it, with the
usual devices of italics and brackets.

In other words we cannot be quite sure that this book contains a
"Visitation of the North taken c. 1490 in the lifetime of William
Mallory himself".

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 feb 2005 21:30:45

This is your usual red herring, Tim. The internal evidence of the
visitation I cited indicates it was created about 1490. It's quite
unfortunate that the original has not survived. However, I don't
believe that the lack of the original account invalidated the record
copy we have today.

Perhaps next you will be saying that you believe Plato never existed
because no original copies of his works have survived. Your logic is
seriously flawed.

Douglas Richardson


Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 19 Feb, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

snip

The most reliable of the various visitations, however, is the
Visitation of the North taken c. 1490 in the lifetime of William
Mallory himself. This visitation identifies William's mother as
Elizabeth, daughter of William Hamerton, Knt. [Reference: Harvey et
al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 148-149 (Malory
pedigree)].

Interestingly the editor of this volume goes to some length to
establish that he thinks that the original, but now lost, document
was
created by someone who met with members of the various families.
However he is not clear that it was a visitation and says of his
prime
document (Ashmole 831 from the Bodleian Library):

"The manuscript is thus a copy made by Robert Glover (1544-88),
pursuivant and herald, of an old manuscript, now lost, which may
have
been the official record of an heraldic visitation of the northern
counties in the later part of the fifteenth century.

"The names of the possible visiting heralds are unknown ..."

Glover probably made his copy after he was 20, that is no earlier
than
1564.

A copy of the same source was also made by Roger Dodsworth who lived
from 1585-1654, so this dates from little earlier than 1605. The
editor added in Dodsworth's information, or that lack of it, with the
usual devices of italics and brackets.

In other words we cannot be quite sure that this book contains a
"Visitation of the North taken c. 1490 in the lifetime of William
Mallory himself".

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 feb 2005 22:56:38

In message of 19 Feb, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

This is your usual red herring, Tim.

That is a denigratory statement that is not true. My account was a
serious statement about the authenticity of a proposed source and said,
totally correctly, that it needed some reservations. No other
conclusion can be drawn from the editor's introduction to the published
version of the text.

The internal evidence of the visitation

This is the point: it is not certain, according to the editor, that
Glover's lost source was a visitation. If it was the heralds concerned
are not known, let alone do we have any knowledge of any royal
commission instructing them or a king of arms to conduct a visitation.

I cited indicates it was created about 1490. It's quite unfortunate
that the original has not survived. However, I don't believe that the
lack of the original account invalidated the record copy we have
today.

No, but it does require us to express due caution, particularly in view
of the editor's lack of certainty on what the original might have been.

Further to refer to Glover's document as a "record copy" implies that it
was taken for the purposes of making a formal record of the original.
Not only does this need qualification but there is also Dodsworth's copy
which is somewhat different to Glover's. Was Dodsworth's copy a "record
copy" as well? The editor does not suggest that either were record
copies, though he does speculate that the original was the official
"record" of a visitation.

Perhaps next you will be saying that you believe Plato never existed
because no original copies of his works have survived. Your logic is
seriously flawed.

That is a non-sequitor. We have plenty of evidence that Plato existed.
We have various purported versions of his writings. Any scholar would
tell you that his precise original text is unknown. This is the level
we are discussing: the contents of the document, not the existence of
the author. Though with this particular document, as above, we do not
even know who the authors were, unlike Plato's works where the author
is quite well known.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2005 23:46:00

It seems to me when two or more of the visitations disagree, the
researcher should not see when they were written, but immediately go
back to the primary sources in order to sort out the problem. Is there
a record that indicates whether the woman in question was a Hamerton
rather than a Curwen? Positing on the worthiness of sources that
apparently have differing accounts is a digression from solving the
problem at hand.

Howard

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Howard » 22 feb 2005 11:45:04

There is a third copy in the College of Arms, ms M4, ff 99v-135, which
Sir Anthony Wagner identified as owned by and probably in the hand of
Christopher Barker ( a member of the CoA from 1522 to his death as
Garter in1550 so this version must be earlier than the two you cite and
within memory of the original creation date). Barker was a nephew of
Christopher Carlisle, Norroy King of Arms 1493-1510 who Wagner thought
the most probable author of the text. Wagner indicates the original
must date after May 1491. The Malory pedigree is on ff 130v-131. See:
Wagner, Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages, 106-7; and Campbell &
Steer, A Catalogue of Maanuscripts iin the College of Arms,
Collections, vol.1, p.84.

Derek Howard

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 22 feb 2005 16:21:43

Howard wrote:
There is a third copy in the College of Arms, ms M4, ff 99v-135,
which
Sir Anthony Wagner identified as owned by and probably in the hand of
Christopher Barker ( a member of the CoA from 1522 to his death as
Garter in1550 so this version must be earlier than the two you cite
and
within memory of the original creation date). Barker was a nephew of
Christopher Carlisle, Norroy King of Arms 1493-1510 who Wagner
thought
the most probable author of the text. Wagner indicates the original
must date after May 1491. The Malory pedigree is on ff 130v-131. See:
Wagner, Heralds and Heraldry in the Middle Ages, 106-7; and Campbell
&
Steer, A Catalogue of Maanuscripts iin the College of Arms,
Collections, vol.1, p.84.

Derek Howard

Dear Derek ~

Thank you for sharing this information with us. Much appreciated.

Even through the modern editor has dated this visitation as being
1480-1500, my own unscientific observations is that this visitation
dates from around c. 1490. I see from your post that Sir Anthony
Wagner has elsewhere dated the visitation as being after May 1491, so
we're quite close. Either 1490 or 1491 would be in the lifetime of Sir
William Mallory. As such, I think we can give this record great weight
in determining the name of Sir William Mallory's mother.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Howard

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Howard » 22 feb 2005 17:53:03

However, I would generally endorse Tim's cautions about visitation
evidence, though not in this case his comment about a specific
commission for this visitation (for such Wagner considers it) as prior
to 1530 commissions were not issued and the few heraldic visitations
that survive appear to be as a result of the Ordinances governing the
Kings of Arms and the similar clauses in their oaths requiring them to
have knowledge of all the nobility in their province. Given that, and
IF we accept Wagner's suggestion of Carlisle as the author of the lost
original (though it could even be an earlier Norroy), the date is
likely to have been after 1493, following his appointment. We cannot be
certain.

Derek Howard

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 22 feb 2005 19:54:46

In message of 22 Feb, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Howard wrote:

There is a third copy in the College of Arms, ms M4, ff 99v-135,
which Sir Anthony Wagner identified as owned by and probably in the
hand of Christopher Barker ( a member of the CoA from 1522 to his
death as Garter in1550 so this version must be earlier than the two
you cite and within memory of the original creation date). Barker
was a nephew of Christopher Carlisle, Norroy King of Arms 1493-1510
who Wagner thought the most probable author of the text. Wagner
indicates the original must date after May 1491. The Malory
pedigree is on ff 130v-131. See: Wagner, Heralds and Heraldry in
the Middle Ages, 106-7; and Campbell & Steer, A Catalogue of
Maanuscripts iin the College of Arms, Collections, vol.1, p.84.

Derek Howard

Dear Derek ~

Thank you for sharing this information with us. Much appreciated.

Indeed yes and with the usual frustration that it has yet to be
transcribed for the universe to know about.

Even through the modern editor has dated this visitation as being
1480-1500,

I think the editor deserves credit for his explorations into the dates
of various pedigrees. He identifies in his preface on p. xiv these
pedigrees:

1. That of the sovereigns is dated by the people listed, notably
Edward IV's daughter Bridget born in 1480 and Edward IV's death in
1483 so lies between those years.

2. That of Knyvett as being not earlier than Jan 1486-7,

3. That of Musgrave as being between Jan 1483-4 and Oct 1496,

4, That of Percy as being before 1489,

5. That of Neville as being between Jun 1483 and Dec 1487,

6. That of Vavasour as after 1490,

7. That of FitzWilliam as after May 1491.

and

8. That of Mowbray as after 1524,

9. That of Roos as after 1557.

my own unscientific observations is that this visitation dates from
around c. 1490.

The Visitation, if it be such though it was undoubtedly a series of
visits, is of a wide range of dates, as above.

Interestingly the editor gives us a possible half date for the recording
of the Mallory pedigree in that William Mallory is not described as
"miles" (knight) and the editor adds in a footnote that Mallory was
knighted on 22 Aug 1482 by the earl of Northumberland. So, if this date
of the knighting is to be believed and if the "miles" was not omitted by
accident, this pedigree dates from before Aug 1482.

I see from your post that Sir Anthony Wagner has elsewhere dated the
visitation as being after May 1491,

From the above, there is an interesting contest between Wagner and the
editor C H Blair. From his methodology I prefer Blair's conclusion that
it was created over a range of dates. Further this range of dates
indicates that it was more like an extended tour of the great houses
done by someone who could easily gain access rather than the official
Visitations in a specific year or so that followed a royal commission to
do just that.

so we're quite close. Either 1490 or 1491 would be in the lifetime
of Sir William Mallory. As such, I think we can give this record
great weight in determining the name of Sir William Mallory's mother.

It could indeed be right and the date above, if correct, corroborates
that the pedigree was taken in the lifetime of this William Mallory, but
it is interesting to note that the editor adds a further footnote to
say of William's grandfather, another William, that the two generations
prior to him had been omitted altogether.

It would be very useful to have a transcript of the pedigree in the
third copy that is in the College of Arms.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Derek Howard

Re: Sir Wm. Mallory (d.1499): his mother?

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 23 feb 2005 12:01:41

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
(snip)
From the above, there is an interesting contest between Wagner and
the
editor C H Blair. From his methodology I prefer Blair's conclusion
that
it was created over a range of dates. Further this range of dates
indicates that it was more like an extended tour of the great houses
done by someone who could easily gain access rather than the official
Visitations in a specific year or so that followed a royal commission
to
do just that.
(snip)


I agree as to the likely methodlogy of collecting the data here,
however I would point out that the post 1530 Visitations were often
developed over several tours and often several years. The Commissions
to the provincial kings of arms were for life which is worth bearing in
mind - I think I am right in saying that the oft cited last commission
of 1688 was in fact still being added to up to around 1700.

Derek Howard

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