The pedigree of the family of the Lords Ros in the cartulary of
Rievaulx Abbey states that Thomas, 4th Lord Ros and his wife Beatrice
Stafford had four sons and two daughters: "Ei successit Thomas frater
ejus, qui quidem Thomas duxit in uxorem Beatricem filiam Radulfi,
Comitis Staffordiae, et genuit ex ea Johannem, Willelmum, Thomam et
Robertum, Elizabeth[am] et Margaretam".
John and William succeeded as Lords Ros of Hamlake. It has been a
daunting task to try and trace what became of the younger sons Thomas
and Robert.
Dugdale says that Robert Ros, the youngest son, was of Hunmanby in
Yorkshire, and died in 1442, leaving two daughters and coheirs,
Margery, who married John Wittlesbury, and Eleanor, who married
Humphrey Dudley.
Ethel Seaton, in her 1961 biography of the youngest son of William, 6th
Lord Ros: 'Sir Richard Roos, c.1410-1482, Lancastrian Poet', follows
Dugdale in making Robert Ros, youngest son of Thomas and Beatrice, the
father of Margery and Eleanor. She adds that he was of Gedney,
Lincolnshire.
Yet a post by Paul Reed to the newsgroup from 2002 in the thread 'Roos
of Ingmanthorpe, York', shows that Dugdale and Ms. Seaton were
incorrect. The Robert Ros of Gedney (1390-1441), who married Joan
Tilliol, and had two daughters and coheiresses Margaret and Eleanor,
was not the same Robert Ros who was youngest son of Thomas and
Beatrice. The Rooses of Gedney were more distant relatives of the
Lords Ros of Hamlake, being descended from a younger son of Robert de
Ros of Hamlake and Isabel d'Aubigny.
Ms. Seaton also said that Thomas Ros, the third son of Thomas, Lord Ros
and Beatrice, was knighted, was of Owersby, Lincolnshire, and died in
1452. She provides no direct source for this statement, but in another
area of her book she mentions what may be a helpful source: "According
to that sixteenth-century genealogy which gives unusually full
information on the younger sons of the Roos family [footnote: MS.
Harleian 4031, fol. 190 v.]"
However, Ms. Seaton may have inadvertently contradicted herself about
this Thomas. When discussing the will of William, 6th Lord Ros, she
states: "Belvoir Priory, together with a substantial donation for its
fabric, had a new chantry foundation, a small college of eight
chaplains (with two honest clerks to wait on them) to say mass on
behalf of himself, his parents, his brothers and sisters, especially
his elder brother Thomas, his benefactors and friends."
Of course, if Thomas was the elder brother of William, he must have
died before 1394, when their eldest brother John, 5th Lord Ros, died
and William was found to be his next heir and succeeded to the barony.
John, 5th Lord Ros, was born 10 August 1365, and William, 6th Lord Ros,
was born about 1370 (found to be aged 24 and more in early 1395).
There is enough room between the two births for Thomas to have been
born.
The passage in the 1412 will of William, 6th Lord Ros is: "Item lego
cccc. ad stipendium decem honestorum capellanorum pro anima mea,
animabus patris et matris, fratrum, sororum, amicorum et benefactorum
meorum, & specialiter pro anima Thomae fratris mei, per octo annos in
capella infra Castrum de Belvero celebraturorum".
My understanding of Latin is terribly limited, but I'm not seeing
anything in the above passage that indicates Thomas was William's elder
brother. However, what is noteworthy is that he is singled out by
William for special commemoration and this indicates to me that he was
probably recently deceased.
CP indicates that Thomas, 4th Lord Ros, mentions his son Thomas in his
1384 will, but it is only the Rievaulx Cartulary pedigree that mentions
fourth son Robert. The 1414 will of Beatrice, Lady Ros, has been
published, and the only two of her children left bequests were William,
Lord Ros and Elizabeth, Lady Clifford. This in all likelihood was
because they were they only two children of Beatrice still alive in
1414, as John and Margaret were definitely deceased. If the two
younger brothers had lived into the mid-15th century, surviving both
their elder brother William and their mother Beatrice, it is surprising
neither one was made a feoffee or executor, especially with William's
children - the future of the family line - all still underage. Adult
younger sons were often called upon to look over the family interests
until the heir achieved majority. This is indeed what Robert and
Richard Roos, the younger sons of William, 6th Lord Ros, did during
their nephew's minority.
So, what likely was the case with Thomas and Robert, younger sons of
Thomas and Beatrice, Lord and Lady Ros, is that Robert died young,
before his father made out his will. Thomas survived his father in
1384, but was dead by 1412 when William made out his will. He would
have been born in the 1370s, and probably lived to adult age, but not
much beyond.
I'd love to hear any thoughts on this deduction.
Cheers, ---Brad
Thomas & Robert, Sons of Thomas, 4th Lord Ros
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Thomas & Robert, Sons of Thomas, 4th Lord Ros
The wife of Robert de Veteriponte, Chevalier,son and nearest heir of
Nicholas de Veteriponte[12 years old at his father¹s death in 1315], was
Margaret, heiress of Heiress of Hucumanby & Midelscough. At her death in
1359, she also held "Lammanby. Two parts of the manor held of the king in
chief by homage."
1279 7 Ed. I Coram Johanne de Vallibus. gilbert de Gaunt claims ³wrecum
balenae apud Hundmanby² The jurors say ³quod iden Gilbertus
C 143/157/13 Joan de Driby to grant the third part of two-thirds of the
manor of Hunmanby, and her reversion in the third part of the third part now
held in dower by Joan, late the wife of Robert de Tateshale, to James de
Ros, Maud his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to the
heirs of Maud, retaining the castle of Tattershall (Lincoln) and the manor
of Buckenham (Norfolk). 16 EDWARD II.
Is it possible that Margaret was a de Ros?
Thank you for observations.
Pat
----------
Nicholas de Veteriponte[12 years old at his father¹s death in 1315], was
Margaret, heiress of Heiress of Hucumanby & Midelscough. At her death in
1359, she also held "Lammanby. Two parts of the manor held of the king in
chief by homage."
1279 7 Ed. I Coram Johanne de Vallibus. gilbert de Gaunt claims ³wrecum
balenae apud Hundmanby² The jurors say ³quod iden Gilbertus
C 143/157/13 Joan de Driby to grant the third part of two-thirds of the
manor of Hunmanby, and her reversion in the third part of the third part now
held in dower by Joan, late the wife of Robert de Tateshale, to James de
Ros, Maud his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to the
heirs of Maud, retaining the castle of Tattershall (Lincoln) and the manor
of Buckenham (Norfolk). 16 EDWARD II.
Is it possible that Margaret was a de Ros?
Thank you for observations.
Pat
----------
From: "Brad Verity" <batruth@hotmail.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Thomas & Robert, Sons of Thomas, 4th Lord Ros
Date: Wed, Feb 16, 2005, 2:10 AM
The pedigree of the family of the Lords Ros in the cartulary of
Rievaulx Abbey states that Thomas, 4th Lord Ros and his wife Beatrice
Stafford had four sons and two daughters: "Ei successit Thomas frater
ejus, qui quidem Thomas duxit in uxorem Beatricem filiam Radulfi,
Comitis Staffordiae, et genuit ex ea Johannem, Willelmum, Thomam et
Robertum, Elizabeth[am] et Margaretam".
John and William succeeded as Lords Ros of Hamlake. It has been a
daunting task to try and trace what became of the younger sons Thomas
and Robert.
Dugdale says that Robert Ros, the youngest son, was of Hunmanby in
Yorkshire, and died in 1442, leaving two daughters and coheirs,
Margery, who married John Wittlesbury, and Eleanor, who married
Humphrey Dudley.
Ethel Seaton, in her 1961 biography of the youngest son of William, 6th
Lord Ros: 'Sir Richard Roos, c.1410-1482, Lancastrian Poet', follows
Dugdale in making Robert Ros, youngest son of Thomas and Beatrice, the
father of Margery and Eleanor. She adds that he was of Gedney,
Lincolnshire.
Yet a post by Paul Reed to the newsgroup from 2002 in the thread 'Roos
of Ingmanthorpe, York', shows that Dugdale and Ms. Seaton were
incorrect. The Robert Ros of Gedney (1390-1441), who married Joan
Tilliol, and had two daughters and coheiresses Margaret and Eleanor,
was not the same Robert Ros who was youngest son of Thomas and
Beatrice. The Rooses of Gedney were more distant relatives of the
Lords Ros of Hamlake, being descended from a younger son of Robert de
Ros of Hamlake and Isabel d'Aubigny.
Ms. Seaton also said that Thomas Ros, the third son of Thomas, Lord Ros
and Beatrice, was knighted, was of Owersby, Lincolnshire, and died in
1452. She provides no direct source for this statement, but in another
area of her book she mentions what may be a helpful source: "According
to that sixteenth-century genealogy which gives unusually full
information on the younger sons of the Roos family [footnote: MS.
Harleian 4031, fol. 190 v.]"
However, Ms. Seaton may have inadvertently contradicted herself about
this Thomas. When discussing the will of William, 6th Lord Ros, she
states: "Belvoir Priory, together with a substantial donation for its
fabric, had a new chantry foundation, a small college of eight
chaplains (with two honest clerks to wait on them) to say mass on
behalf of himself, his parents, his brothers and sisters, especially
his elder brother Thomas, his benefactors and friends."
Of course, if Thomas was the elder brother of William, he must have
died before 1394, when their eldest brother John, 5th Lord Ros, died
and William was found to be his next heir and succeeded to the barony.
John, 5th Lord Ros, was born 10 August 1365, and William, 6th Lord Ros,
was born about 1370 (found to be aged 24 and more in early 1395).
There is enough room between the two births for Thomas to have been
born.
The passage in the 1412 will of William, 6th Lord Ros is: "Item lego
cccc. ad stipendium decem honestorum capellanorum pro anima mea,
animabus patris et matris, fratrum, sororum, amicorum et benefactorum
meorum, & specialiter pro anima Thomae fratris mei, per octo annos in
capella infra Castrum de Belvero celebraturorum".
My understanding of Latin is terribly limited, but I'm not seeing
anything in the above passage that indicates Thomas was William's elder
brother. However, what is noteworthy is that he is singled out by
William for special commemoration and this indicates to me that he was
probably recently deceased.
CP indicates that Thomas, 4th Lord Ros, mentions his son Thomas in his
1384 will, but it is only the Rievaulx Cartulary pedigree that mentions
fourth son Robert. The 1414 will of Beatrice, Lady Ros, has been
published, and the only two of her children left bequests were William,
Lord Ros and Elizabeth, Lady Clifford. This in all likelihood was
because they were they only two children of Beatrice still alive in
1414, as John and Margaret were definitely deceased. If the two
younger brothers had lived into the mid-15th century, surviving both
their elder brother William and their mother Beatrice, it is surprising
neither one was made a feoffee or executor, especially with William's
children - the future of the family line - all still underage. Adult
younger sons were often called upon to look over the family interests
until the heir achieved majority. This is indeed what Robert and
Richard Roos, the younger sons of William, 6th Lord Ros, did during
their nephew's minority.
So, what likely was the case with Thomas and Robert, younger sons of
Thomas and Beatrice, Lord and Lady Ros, is that Robert died young,
before his father made out his will. Thomas survived his father in
1384, but was dead by 1412 when William made out his will. He would
have been born in the 1370s, and probably lived to adult age, but not
much beyond.
I'd love to hear any thoughts on this deduction.
Cheers, ---Brad
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Identity of Maud de Bernake, wife of James de Roos, of Gedne
Dear Patricia ~
Thank you for your good post.
You have correctly observed that Joan (de Tateshall) de Driby settled
lands in 1323 on James de Roos, and his wife, Maud, and the heirs of
their bodies, with reversion to the heirs of Maud. Since this property
in Hunmanby, Yorkshire was part of Joan's inheritance, and since the
remainder was set to go to the heirs of Maud, this is all a good
indication that Maud was near related to Joan de Driby. Also, this
settlement appears to have taken place about the time of Maud's
marriage. As such, this settlement was almost certainly intended to
serve as Maud's maritagium.
As it turns out, Maud de Roos was Joan's own granddaughter, being the
child of William de Bernake, by his wife, Alice, daughter of Robert de
Driby and Joan de Tateshale.
Evidence of Maud de Roos' maiden name can be found in the records of
Belvoir Priory which shows that anniversary of Maud Bernak, widow of
Sir James de Ros, was kept at Belvoir Priory 24 October [Reference:
Nichols, Hist. & Antiq. of Leicestershire 2(1) (1795): Appendix, pp.
23, 37].
Further information on the Roos family of Gedney, Lincolnshire will be
found in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
publication in June 2005. Please contact me offline for details
regarding ordering the book.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Thank you for your good post.
You have correctly observed that Joan (de Tateshall) de Driby settled
lands in 1323 on James de Roos, and his wife, Maud, and the heirs of
their bodies, with reversion to the heirs of Maud. Since this property
in Hunmanby, Yorkshire was part of Joan's inheritance, and since the
remainder was set to go to the heirs of Maud, this is all a good
indication that Maud was near related to Joan de Driby. Also, this
settlement appears to have taken place about the time of Maud's
marriage. As such, this settlement was almost certainly intended to
serve as Maud's maritagium.
As it turns out, Maud de Roos was Joan's own granddaughter, being the
child of William de Bernake, by his wife, Alice, daughter of Robert de
Driby and Joan de Tateshale.
Evidence of Maud de Roos' maiden name can be found in the records of
Belvoir Priory which shows that anniversary of Maud Bernak, widow of
Sir James de Ros, was kept at Belvoir Priory 24 October [Reference:
Nichols, Hist. & Antiq. of Leicestershire 2(1) (1795): Appendix, pp.
23, 37].
Further information on the Roos family of Gedney, Lincolnshire will be
found in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
publication in June 2005. Please contact me offline for details
regarding ordering the book.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net