Dear Newsgroup ~
Recently I located an ancient deed dated 1449 in which John le Scrope,
Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1455) made reference to John Talbot, 1st
Earl of Shrewbury, and "my right worshipful cosyn Sir John Talbot his
son." [Reference: Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235]. The
wording of this document indicates that John le Scrope was kin in some
manner to Sir John Talbot (later 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, died 1460)
through the latter's mother, Maud de Neville.
Presumably John le Scrope and John Talbot were closely related to one
another. However, examining their known pedigrees, I've been unable to
find any near kinship between these two parties. As such, it seems
that this reference to kinship in the 1449 deed might be a good clue to
resolving the hitherto unknown identities of either John le Scrope's
paternal grandmother, Joan, wife of Henry le Scrope, or John Talbot's
maternal great-grandmother, Thomasine, wife of William de Furnival.
The nearest kinship I've spotted so far between the Scrope and Talbot
families is a common descent from Sir Thomas de Clare, which descent
makes John le Scrope and John Talbot related in the 5th and 6th degrees
of kindred. This kinship would be within the 5th degree on one side,
which is the normal outer limit by which someone would normally
acknowledge kinship in this time period. However, since families of
this rank are often related in more than one way, I suspect the two
parties have a nearer kinship through either Joan le Scrope or
Thomasine de Furnival mentioned above.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
T
John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrews
Ian Fettes has John Le Scrope 4th Lord Scrope of Masham and the 2nd Earl of
Shrewsbury as 4th cousins once removed (both descend from Thomas de Clare
and Juliana FitzMaurice).
In my system I have them as 6th cousins twice removed. I have not as yet
double checked Ian's link.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury as 4th cousins once removed (both descend from Thomas de Clare
and Juliana FitzMaurice).
In my system I have them as 6th cousins twice removed. I have not as yet
double checked Ian's link.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury
Dear Newsgroup ~
Recently I located an ancient deed dated 1449 in which John le Scrope,
Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1455) made reference to John Talbot, 1st
Earl of Shrewbury, and "my right worshipful cosyn Sir John Talbot his
son." [Reference: Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235]. The
wording of this document indicates that John le Scrope was kin in some
manner to Sir John Talbot (later 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, died 1460)
through the latter's mother, Maud de Neville.
Presumably John le Scrope and John Talbot were closely related to one
another. However, examining their known pedigrees, I've been unable to
find any near kinship between these two parties. As such, it seems
that this reference to kinship in the 1449 deed might be a good clue to
resolving the hitherto unknown identities of either John le Scrope's
paternal grandmother, Joan, wife of Henry le Scrope, or John Talbot's
maternal great-grandmother, Thomasine, wife of William de Furnival.
The nearest kinship I've spotted so far between the Scrope and Talbot
families is a common descent from Sir Thomas de Clare, which descent
makes John le Scrope and John Talbot related in the 5th and 6th degrees
of kindred. This kinship would be within the 5th degree on one side,
which is the normal outer limit by which someone would normally
acknowledge kinship in this time period. However, since families of
this rank are often related in more than one way, I suspect the two
parties have a nearer kinship through either Joan le Scrope or
Thomasine de Furnival mentioned above.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
T
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrews
Dear Leo ~
Thank you for checking your database and that of Ian Fettes. Much
appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Thank you for checking your database and that of Ian Fettes. Much
appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Ian Fettes has John Le Scrope 4th Lord Scrope of Masham and the 2nd
Earl of
Shrewsbury as 4th cousins once removed (both descend from Thomas de
Clare
and Juliana FitzMaurice).
In my system I have them as 6th cousins twice removed. I have not as
yet
double checked Ian's link.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: John le Scrope's cousin, John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury
Dear Newsgroup ~
Recently I located an ancient deed dated 1449 in which John le
Scrope,
Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1455) made reference to John Talbot,
1st
Earl of Shrewbury, and "my right worshipful cosyn Sir John Talbot
his
son." [Reference: Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 235]. The
wording of this document indicates that John le Scrope was kin in
some
manner to Sir John Talbot (later 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury, died 1460)
through the latter's mother, Maud de Neville.
Presumably John le Scrope and John Talbot were closely related to
one
another. However, examining their known pedigrees, I've been
unable to
find any near kinship between these two parties. As such, it seems
that this reference to kinship in the 1449 deed might be a good
clue to
resolving the hitherto unknown identities of either John le
Scrope's
paternal grandmother, Joan, wife of Henry le Scrope, or John
Talbot's
maternal great-grandmother, Thomasine, wife of William de Furnival.
The nearest kinship I've spotted so far between the Scrope and
Talbot
families is a common descent from Sir Thomas de Clare, which
descent
makes John le Scrope and John Talbot related in the 5th and 6th
degrees
of kindred. This kinship would be within the 5th degree on one
side,
which is the normal outer limit by which someone would normally
acknowledge kinship in this time period. However, since families
of
this rank are often related in more than one way, I suspect the two
parties have a nearer kinship through either Joan le Scrope or
Thomasine de Furnival mentioned above.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
T