Grahams of Scotland
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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Gjest
Grahams of Scotland
"initially, to see whether anyone was interested in them. At the moment, I'm particularly interested in the descendants of Walter Graham, the head of the Cumberland clan, who was
deported to Ireland in 1605. His ancestors are pretty well documented on the internet (with variations), with the exception of John Graham (John of the Bright Sword), who is given as reputed son of Malise, Earl of Menteith."
Renia what is the source that gives you that John "of the Bright Sword" is the son of Malise, Earl Strathern and Menteith ~1407-1485/91 ?
Thanks
Will
deported to Ireland in 1605. His ancestors are pretty well documented on the internet (with variations), with the exception of John Graham (John of the Bright Sword), who is given as reputed son of Malise, Earl of Menteith."
Renia what is the source that gives you that John "of the Bright Sword" is the son of Malise, Earl Strathern and Menteith ~1407-1485/91 ?
Thanks
Will
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Various online sources and Burke's give this, often referring to it as
"tradition". But "Irish Pedigrees" gives: "Stoddart rejects as
untenable the tradition that John Graham 'of the Bright Sword', grandson
of Malise, earl of Strathearn, for it has been clearly proved he died
without legitimate male issue." [note: but see also 'The Debatable Land'
by T J Carlyle, 1868.) (Mr Stoddart's 'Scottish Arms', 10th Rep of
Historical Manuscripts Commission)
Renia
"initially, to see whether anyone was interested in them. At the moment, I'm particularly interested in the descendants of Walter Graham, the head of the Cumberland clan, who was
deported to Ireland in 1605. His ancestors are pretty well documented on the internet (with variations), with the exception of John Graham (John of the Bright Sword), who is given as reputed son of Malise, Earl of Menteith."
Renia what is the source that gives you that John "of the Bright Sword" is the son of Malise, Earl Strathern and Menteith ~1407-1485/91 ?
Thanks
Will
Various online sources and Burke's give this, often referring to it as
"tradition". But "Irish Pedigrees" gives: "Stoddart rejects as
untenable the tradition that John Graham 'of the Bright Sword', grandson
of Malise, earl of Strathearn, for it has been clearly proved he died
without legitimate male issue." [note: but see also 'The Debatable Land'
by T J Carlyle, 1868.) (Mr Stoddart's 'Scottish Arms', 10th Rep of
Historical Manuscripts Commission)
Renia
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
In a message dated 2/9/2005 6:50:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
Renia there is no such source as "various online sources" so that can be
rejected.
Second Burke's repeats many ridiculous family stories that have no basis in
fact. And there is no such thing as "Burke's" since there were many works by
Burke's so you'll have to specify which one and which publication year.
So third Irish Pedigrees sounds like it's spot-on. Go with that.
Will
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
Various online sources and Burke's give this, often referring to it as
"tradition". But "Irish Pedigrees" gives: "Stoddart rejects as
untenable the tradition that John Graham 'of the Bright Sword', grandson
of Malise, earl of Strathearn, for it has been clearly proved he died
without legitimate male issue." [note: but see also 'The Debatable Land'
by T J Carlyle, 1868.) (Mr Stoddart's 'Scottish Arms', 10th Rep of
Historical Manuscripts Commission)
Renia there is no such source as "various online sources" so that can be
rejected.
Second Burke's repeats many ridiculous family stories that have no basis in
fact. And there is no such thing as "Burke's" since there were many works by
Burke's so you'll have to specify which one and which publication year.
So third Irish Pedigrees sounds like it's spot-on. Go with that.
Will
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I am going with the Irish Pedigrees, and ignoring Burke's and the online
sources, which is why I did not bother to cite them.
Renia
In a message dated 2/9/2005 6:50:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
Various online sources and Burke's give this, often referring to it as
"tradition". But "Irish Pedigrees" gives: "Stoddart rejects as
untenable the tradition that John Graham 'of the Bright Sword', grandson
of Malise, earl of Strathearn, for it has been clearly proved he died
without legitimate male issue." [note: but see also 'The Debatable Land'
by T J Carlyle, 1868.) (Mr Stoddart's 'Scottish Arms', 10th Rep of
Historical Manuscripts Commission)
Renia there is no such source as "various online sources" so that can be
rejected.
Second Burke's repeats many ridiculous family stories that have no basis in
fact. And there is no such thing as "Burke's" since there were many works by
Burke's so you'll have to specify which one and which publication year.
So third Irish Pedigrees sounds like it's spot-on. Go with that.
I am going with the Irish Pedigrees, and ignoring Burke's and the online
sources, which is why I did not bother to cite them.
Renia
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Matthew Rockefeller
Re: Grahams of Scotland
As usual, riding someone's back. Doesn't it get tiresome?
Matthew
Matthew
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
eh?
Renia
As usual, riding someone's back. Doesn't it get tiresome?
Matthew
eh?
Renia
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
Matthew Rockefeller wrote: "As usual, riding someone's back. Doesn't it get tiresome?
Matthew"
Pointing out flaws in someone's research never gets tiring. Neither does exposing frauds by the way. Don't suppose you've found any of those sources for your own line yet right?
Have a smirchy day
Will
Matthew"
Pointing out flaws in someone's research never gets tiring. Neither does exposing frauds by the way. Don't suppose you've found any of those sources for your own line yet right?
Have a smirchy day
Will
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
One of the supposed descendant branches of the Grahams of Esk were the
Grahams of Edmond Castle (Burke's Landed Gentry, 1937 edition I think),
a Graham family based around Hayton in Cumberland.
Thomas Henry Boileau Graham of Edmond Castle shows pretty convincingly
(for me at least) that, firstly, the Grahams of Edmond Castle were NOT
descended from the Grahams of Esk, and, secondly, that the Grahams of
Esk were not descended directly from Malise.
[5] T.H.B. Graham, The Debateable Land, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XII, p.
33. (1912)
[6] T.H.B. Graham, The Debatable Land Part II, Transactions of the
Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S.
XIV, p. 132. (1914)
[7] T.H.B. Graham, The Barony of Liddel and its Occupants, Transactions
of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological
Society, N.S. XI, p. 55. (1911)
[8] T.H.B. Graham, The Grahams of Esk, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XXX, p.
224. (1930)
How much you believe THB Graham's arguments is up to you.
James
Grahams of Edmond Castle (Burke's Landed Gentry, 1937 edition I think),
a Graham family based around Hayton in Cumberland.
Thomas Henry Boileau Graham of Edmond Castle shows pretty convincingly
(for me at least) that, firstly, the Grahams of Edmond Castle were NOT
descended from the Grahams of Esk, and, secondly, that the Grahams of
Esk were not descended directly from Malise.
[5] T.H.B. Graham, The Debateable Land, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XII, p.
33. (1912)
[6] T.H.B. Graham, The Debatable Land Part II, Transactions of the
Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S.
XIV, p. 132. (1914)
[7] T.H.B. Graham, The Barony of Liddel and its Occupants, Transactions
of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological
Society, N.S. XI, p. 55. (1911)
[8] T.H.B. Graham, The Grahams of Esk, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XXX, p.
224. (1930)
How much you believe THB Graham's arguments is up to you.
James
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
There may be reasons why someone doesn't cite a particular online
source. In my case, it was because I was dismissing them. I think I'm
well-known enough here for the regulars to understand that.
If pointing out perceived flaws in others' research is all you do, then
perhaps it is time you sought out for yourself all those sources which
you constantly demand.
If you are really desparate for the sources, then advise me which Graham
line you are researching, and I will post online and offline sources for
you. Somehow, I doubt you have Graham ancestry.
Renia
Matthew Rockefeller wrote: "As usual, riding someone's back. Doesn't it get tiresome?
Matthew"
Pointing out flaws in someone's research never gets tiring. Neither does exposing frauds by the way. Don't suppose you've found any of those sources for your own line yet right?
Have a smirchy day
Will
There may be reasons why someone doesn't cite a particular online
source. In my case, it was because I was dismissing them. I think I'm
well-known enough here for the regulars to understand that.
If pointing out perceived flaws in others' research is all you do, then
perhaps it is time you sought out for yourself all those sources which
you constantly demand.
If you are really desparate for the sources, then advise me which Graham
line you are researching, and I will post online and offline sources for
you. Somehow, I doubt you have Graham ancestry.
Renia
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
james@burningviolin.org wrote:
Thank you for the Debatable Land titles which I hope to look into one
day when I'm back in England. I'm not particularly interested in the
Grahams of Edmond Castle as I don't know anything about them, but I
appreciate what you say about the dangerous link between Malise and the
Grahams of Esk.
Renia
One of the supposed descendant branches of the Grahams of Esk were the
Grahams of Edmond Castle (Burke's Landed Gentry, 1937 edition I think),
a Graham family based around Hayton in Cumberland.
Thomas Henry Boileau Graham of Edmond Castle shows pretty convincingly
(for me at least) that, firstly, the Grahams of Edmond Castle were NOT
descended from the Grahams of Esk, and, secondly, that the Grahams of
Esk were not descended directly from Malise.
[5] T.H.B. Graham, The Debateable Land, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XII, p.
33. (1912)
[6] T.H.B. Graham, The Debatable Land Part II, Transactions of the
Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S.
XIV, p. 132. (1914)
[7] T.H.B. Graham, The Barony of Liddel and its Occupants, Transactions
of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological
Society, N.S. XI, p. 55. (1911)
[8] T.H.B. Graham, The Grahams of Esk, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XXX, p.
224. (1930)
How much you believe THB Graham's arguments is up to you.
Thank you for the Debatable Land titles which I hope to look into one
day when I'm back in England. I'm not particularly interested in the
Grahams of Edmond Castle as I don't know anything about them, but I
appreciate what you say about the dangerous link between Malise and the
Grahams of Esk.
Renia
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
Dear Newsgroup,
There is a book entitled The Landed Gentry of
Strathearn, is wish I could recall the name of the author, but I can`t. The Table
of contents has been the web, but I can`t seem to locate it at this time. It
includes articles on some of the Graham families.
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
There is a book entitled The Landed Gentry of
Strathearn, is wish I could recall the name of the author, but I can`t. The Table
of contents has been the web, but I can`t seem to locate it at this time. It
includes articles on some of the Graham families.
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
Renia wrote: "If you are really desparate for the sources, then advise me which Graham line you are researching, and I will post online and offline sources for you. Somehow, I doubt you have Graham ancestry. Renia"
First, my response was to Matthew not to you.
Second, I am not "desperate" for sources, I'm pointing out what sources are useful and what are not.
Third, I am supposed to be a descendent of William, 2nd Lord Graham d 1372 and his wife Helen Douglas d/o William, 2nd Earl Angus (William d 1437)
So what do you have for me?
Will
First, my response was to Matthew not to you.
Second, I am not "desperate" for sources, I'm pointing out what sources are useful and what are not.
Third, I am supposed to be a descendent of William, 2nd Lord Graham d 1372 and his wife Helen Douglas d/o William, 2nd Earl Angus (William d 1437)
So what do you have for me?
Will
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Renia
Re: Grahams of Scotland
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Re sources, I was responding to your previous one to me, not this latest
to Matthew, though that reply prompted my own response.
As I am not looking beyond Malise's unlikely son, John of the Bright
Sword, so I am not looking into the Graham/Douglas marriage at the moment.
However, you might be interested in the following, re 1st Lord Graham,
from CP (Angus):
Q
George (Douglas), Earl of Angus, illegit son of William (Douglas), 1st
Earl of Douglas, by Margaret, suo jure Countess of Angus, was born not
later than 1378. On 9 April 1389 by the resignation of his mother the
said Countess, he received a grant of the Earldom of Angus to himself
and the heirs of his body, with remainder to Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Alexander Hamilton, of Innerwick (youngest and only sister of the said
Countess), and the heirs of their bodies.
He married (contract dated 24 May 1397), the Lady Mary Stewart, 2nd
daughter of Robert III, by Annabel, daughter of Sir John Drummond, of
Stobhall. He was taken prisoner at the battle of Homildon Hill, and died
of the pestilence in England, in the same year, 1402.
His widow married secondly, Sir James Kennedy the year of Dunure. He was
killed, vp, before 8 Nov 1408. In July 1409 his widow had Papal
dispensation to marry (as his 2nd wife) Sir William Cunningham, but
there is no clear evidence that the marriage ever took place. He died
between 7 Aug 1413 and December 1415. She married 3rdly (as his second
wife), 13 Nov 1413, William Graham, 1st Lord Graham, who was living to
August 1423. She married 4thly, 1425, Sir William Edmonstone, of
Duntreath. She was living 1458, having had issue by all four husbands,
and was buried, with her last husband, in the Church of Strathblane.
UNQ
You seem to have made a typo in giving the death of William Graham as
1372. It should be 1472.
Again, from CP (Graham):
Q
William Graham, Lord Graham, only son and heir [of Patrick, Lord Graham,
and heir apparent of /the above/ William, Lord Graham]. He sat in
Parliament 9 October 1466 and 21 Nov 1469. He had a safe conduct to pass
through England as "Dominus de Graham", 23 Nov 1466. He married, before
1460, Elene or Helen, daughter of William Douglas, 2nd Earl of Angus, by
Margaret daughter of Sir William Hay of Yester. he died 1472. His widow
married before 1478, as his 2nd wife, Sir James Ogilvy, who in 1491 was
created Lord Ogilvy of Airlie, and died 1504. She was living 20 Nov
1486, but died some years before her 2nd husband.
UNQ
Why do you say you are "supposed to descend" from William Graham? Don't
you know?
If you want any more, then you can consult CP yourself, if you haven't
already.
Renia
Renia wrote: "If you are really desparate for the sources, then advise me which Graham line you are researching, and I will post online and offline sources for you. Somehow, I doubt you have Graham ancestry. Renia"
First, my response was to Matthew not to you.
Second, I am not "desperate" for sources, I'm pointing out what sources are useful and what are not.
Third, I am supposed to be a descendent of William, 2nd Lord Graham d 1372 and his wife Helen Douglas d/o William, 2nd Earl Angus (William d 1437)
So what do you have for me?
Will
Re sources, I was responding to your previous one to me, not this latest
to Matthew, though that reply prompted my own response.
As I am not looking beyond Malise's unlikely son, John of the Bright
Sword, so I am not looking into the Graham/Douglas marriage at the moment.
However, you might be interested in the following, re 1st Lord Graham,
from CP (Angus):
Q
George (Douglas), Earl of Angus, illegit son of William (Douglas), 1st
Earl of Douglas, by Margaret, suo jure Countess of Angus, was born not
later than 1378. On 9 April 1389 by the resignation of his mother the
said Countess, he received a grant of the Earldom of Angus to himself
and the heirs of his body, with remainder to Elizabeth, wife of Sir
Alexander Hamilton, of Innerwick (youngest and only sister of the said
Countess), and the heirs of their bodies.
He married (contract dated 24 May 1397), the Lady Mary Stewart, 2nd
daughter of Robert III, by Annabel, daughter of Sir John Drummond, of
Stobhall. He was taken prisoner at the battle of Homildon Hill, and died
of the pestilence in England, in the same year, 1402.
His widow married secondly, Sir James Kennedy the year of Dunure. He was
killed, vp, before 8 Nov 1408. In July 1409 his widow had Papal
dispensation to marry (as his 2nd wife) Sir William Cunningham, but
there is no clear evidence that the marriage ever took place. He died
between 7 Aug 1413 and December 1415. She married 3rdly (as his second
wife), 13 Nov 1413, William Graham, 1st Lord Graham, who was living to
August 1423. She married 4thly, 1425, Sir William Edmonstone, of
Duntreath. She was living 1458, having had issue by all four husbands,
and was buried, with her last husband, in the Church of Strathblane.
UNQ
You seem to have made a typo in giving the death of William Graham as
1372. It should be 1472.
Again, from CP (Graham):
Q
William Graham, Lord Graham, only son and heir [of Patrick, Lord Graham,
and heir apparent of /the above/ William, Lord Graham]. He sat in
Parliament 9 October 1466 and 21 Nov 1469. He had a safe conduct to pass
through England as "Dominus de Graham", 23 Nov 1466. He married, before
1460, Elene or Helen, daughter of William Douglas, 2nd Earl of Angus, by
Margaret daughter of Sir William Hay of Yester. he died 1472. His widow
married before 1478, as his 2nd wife, Sir James Ogilvy, who in 1491 was
created Lord Ogilvy of Airlie, and died 1504. She was living 20 Nov
1486, but died some years before her 2nd husband.
UNQ
Why do you say you are "supposed to descend" from William Graham? Don't
you know?
If you want any more, then you can consult CP yourself, if you haven't
already.
Renia
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Gjest
Re: Grahams of Scotland
As to why I'm supposed to be a descendent of William, 2nd Lord Graham, I present the following fact:
Marriage contract 18 Jul 1594 Paris,France (Cathereau et Babynet)
Furent presens en leurs personnes Jehan de Monteth escuier seigneur dargentenay natif en escosse en la province de Sterlincher (Stirlingshire) de la maison des Comtes de monteth [Menteith] et Barons de carsa [Kerse] estans en ceste ville de paris loge en la maison du chapeau Rouge paroisse St Jehan en greve [reste de la ligne biffe]. Assiste de Jehan de gordon Gentilhomme de la chambre du Roy seigneur de boulaytiery son cousin remue de germain a cause de leurs grandes meres filles [biffe : des comtes] de Comte de Montrosse en Escosse...
As you can see it plainly says that John of Menteith and John of Gordon are cousins DUE to their grandmothers both being daughters of the Count of Montrose in Scotland.
Given the contract date 1594 and casting back four generations to who ruled Montrose we must arrive at either
William Graham (~1463 - 1513 Flodden), 1st Earl of Montrose 1503 or his son William Graham (~1494 - 1571 Kincardine), 2nd Earl of Montrose
However no researcher has been able to bridge the gap between John of Menteith and these men although there has been a lot of speculation and theorizing.
Will
Marriage contract 18 Jul 1594 Paris,France (Cathereau et Babynet)
Furent presens en leurs personnes Jehan de Monteth escuier seigneur dargentenay natif en escosse en la province de Sterlincher (Stirlingshire) de la maison des Comtes de monteth [Menteith] et Barons de carsa [Kerse] estans en ceste ville de paris loge en la maison du chapeau Rouge paroisse St Jehan en greve [reste de la ligne biffe]. Assiste de Jehan de gordon Gentilhomme de la chambre du Roy seigneur de boulaytiery son cousin remue de germain a cause de leurs grandes meres filles [biffe : des comtes] de Comte de Montrosse en Escosse...
As you can see it plainly says that John of Menteith and John of Gordon are cousins DUE to their grandmothers both being daughters of the Count of Montrose in Scotland.
Given the contract date 1594 and casting back four generations to who ruled Montrose we must arrive at either
William Graham (~1463 - 1513 Flodden), 1st Earl of Montrose 1503 or his son William Graham (~1494 - 1571 Kincardine), 2nd Earl of Montrose
However no researcher has been able to bridge the gap between John of Menteith and these men although there has been a lot of speculation and theorizing.
Will
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Kelsey Williams
Re: Grahams of Scotland
Hello,
I suspect the book you're thinking of is Gordon A. Comrie MacGregor's
_The Landed Families of Perthshire, Vol. I: The Earldom of Strathearn_
(Dundee: Perthshire Heritage, 2003). It contains an excellent account
of the Perthshire branches of the Grahams but nothing concerning the
Grahams of Esk or their relatives (real or supposed).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
I suspect the book you're thinking of is Gordon A. Comrie MacGregor's
_The Landed Families of Perthshire, Vol. I: The Earldom of Strathearn_
(Dundee: Perthshire Heritage, 2003). It contains an excellent account
of the Perthshire branches of the Grahams but nothing concerning the
Grahams of Esk or their relatives (real or supposed).
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Newsgroup,
There is a book entitled The Landed Gentry
of
Strathearn, is wish I could recall the name of the author, but I
can`t. The Table
of contents has been the web, but I can`t seem to locate it at this
time. It
includes articles on some of the Graham families.
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA