FW: RE: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

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John Parsons

FW: RE: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av John Parsons » 05 feb 2005 03:21:02

Amy Kelly's *Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings* is certainly among the
most popular works on Eleanor's life. For over 20 years, it was the only
biography in print about the woman and for that reason it naturally held the
field. That is no longer the case, though most of the works that have
appeared about Eleanor since Marion Meade's biography in 1977 (and including
Meade's book) are flawed by a continuing tendency to romanticize the queen's
life beyond what the historical record will bear, and to pad out with
nothing more than imagination the many areas of her career that are quite
poorly documented.

Amy Kelly was not an historian. A specialist in the courtly literature of
the Middle Agess she was primarily interested in Eleanor's legendary
patronage of courtly literature. Kelly was responsible for making the
strongest "case" in favor of Eleanor's active literary patronage and for
creating a highly colored account of the queen presiding over the so-called
"courts of love" at Poitiers. Kelly's view, consistent with her personal
interests, that Eleanor was an active patroness of literature, was most
authoritatively exploded by Karen Broadhurst, "Henry II of England and
Eleanor of Aquitaine: Patrons of Literature in French?", *Viator* 27 (1996):
53-84, who concluded from an exceptionally careful examination of texts and
dedications that it was Henry II, not Eleanor, who sponsored most of the
literary works created for his court.

The passage Kelly cites from Suger regarding Eleanor's marriage does not
bear on Eleanor's age in 1137. It deals only with the general political
circumstances surrounding her union with Louis: that her father died
leaving two daughters whose guardianship the dying duke entrusted to King
Louis VI, who then arranged for the elder daughter, Eleanor, to marry his
son Louis. Wherever Kelly found information that Eleanor was 15 in 1137, it
was not in Suger. Since she did not provide any further details of her
sources or authorities, we don't know where she found that information. Her
likely authority, though she did not cite it, was Alfred Richard's 2-volume
history of the counts of Poitou. As Andrew Lewis states, however, details
such as dates of birth were "not among Richard's strengths as a scholar"
(Lewis, "The Birth and Childhood of King John: Some Revisions," in *Eleanor
of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady*, eds. Bonnie Wheeler and John C. Parsons (New
York: Palgrave World Publishing, 2003), p. 161.

Kelly never referred to the chronicle Andrew Lewis found, which is the only
direct evidence for Eleanor's age in 1137. Most probably Kelly knew nothing
of that text, which was not available in print. Lewis consulted it in
manuscript (Paris, BNF, lat. 5452, a chronicle written at St-Martial in
Limoges, within the domains of the dukes of Aquitaine/counts of Poitou).

New discoveries of forgotten or unpublished manuscripts occur regularly and
the testimony of these witnesses, even if they are at variance with
prevailing opinions, must be allowed to enter into our discussions if the
discipline is to evolve and not remain statically tied to those prevailing
beliefs. We constantly revise our opinions on lines of genealogical
descent; why not for dates of birth, when new evidence is made available?

Regards

John P.


From: "Ginny Wagner" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Eleanor Of Aquitaine
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:39:01 -0600


Comments, Quibbles & Discussion?

In Amy Kelly's Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings: On the first page
under The Rich Dower:

But his [Guillaume, Count of Poitou and Duke of Aquitaine] early death in
1137 brought the king [Louis the Sixth of France, Louis the Fat] face to
face with problems that could not be postponed.

Guilliame's only heirs were two daughters. Eleanor, the elder, was a girl
(jeune pucelle) scarcely fifteen. This young duchess, with her legacy of
violent and unfinished quarrels, was King Louis's vassal, his lawful
marriage prize ....[4]


Notes: [4]Sug, Vie L. VI, 128.

Biblio: Sug Suger, De Administratione and De Consecratione. See
Panofsky.
Epistolae (HGF XV)
Vie de Louis le Gros and Vie de Louis VII. See Molinier.


1137 - 15 = 1122

Best,
Ginny


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 feb 2005 19:45:35

Hilarious!

We STILL have not seen any genealogical or historical EVIDENCE for an
1124 birthdate for Eleanor of Aquitaine -- just window-dressing,
opining, thumb-sucking, stern warnings and fatuous bloviating.

John Carmi Parsons, after besmirching the reputation of a dead woman,
Amy Kelly, rapidly retired from the field -- implicitly shouting over
his shoulder "If you want to see any evidence for my bald assertions
about 1124 you'll have to buy my expensive book."

Hilarious!

We've seen all this before.

This is the book John Parsons was tardy in admitting up front that he
had co-edited. He keeps talking about Andrew Lewis's ARTICLE -- but
often fails to mention the article is a CHAPTER in PARSONS' book.

Fun & Games In Academia....

They really DO think we are this obtuse and gullible -- but we are
not -- and see right through their shenanigans.

Marvelous Entertainment, However!

Even Better Than Reading Ward Churchill & Laughing At Him.

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]

"Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Odi profanum vulgus et arceo."

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat
opus.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 feb 2005 00:33:45

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:im8Nd.14$Df3.844@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

We STILL have not seen any genealogical or historical EVIDENCE for an
1124 birthdate for Eleanor of Aquitaine -- just window-dressing,
opining, thumb-sucking, stern warnings and fatuous bloviating.

John Carmi Parsons, after besmirching the reputation of a dead woman,
Amy Kelly, rapidly retired from the field -- implicitly shouting over
his shoulder "If you want to see any evidence for my bald assertions
about 1124 you'll have to buy my expensive book."

Hilarious!

We've seen all this before.

This is the book John Parsons was tardy in admitting up front that he
had co-edited. He keeps talking about Andrew Lewis's ARTICLE -- but
often fails to mention the article is a CHAPTER in PARSONS' book.

Fun & Games In Academia....

They really DO think we are this obtuse and gullible -- but we are
not -- and see right through their shenanigans.

If you followed my advice and took the trouble to read the paper by Lewis,
you would find that Georges Duby had also accepted the evidence 1124 as the
year of Eleanor's birth. Was he also hoping to score some extra pennies from
a rush of sales, or is there a different explanation perhaps? The source for
this is printed in RHGF XVIII, on p. 241, and you can see it for yourself at

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-50136

Lewis discussed the relevant text, including the source of its errors and
some specific interpolations, in detail in note 12 on pp. 170-171 of his
work cited previously. He also mentioned that he will publish further
studies on the manuscript in which this is found.

Now we still are awaiting evidence that Spencer is not engaging in precisely
the kind of games that he so blithely accuse others of playing. Let me
remind the newsgroup of Spencer's words from 4 February:

MANY other sources have Eleanor's birthdate as c. 1122 -- and MANY
Mediaeval Historians and Genealogists use this birthdate -- NOT c. 1124.

Plainly he stated that many sources (as distinct from many historians and
genealogists said to be in agreement with them) "have Eleanor's birthdate as
c. 1122". But Spencer has yet to come up with ONE of these MANY - relying
instead on the fourth-hand & unsupported statement of a modern writer, and
specious implications about the motives & expertise of others.

Well, the archive does not lie. Nor does it writhe in silly agonies of
humiliation, spitting absurd & utterly false accusations at honest
historians.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 feb 2005 00:56:51

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:tJcNd.148895$K7.47795@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Georges Duby had also accepted the evidence 1124 as the year of Eleanor's
birth.

I somehow deleted a few characters from this sentence: it should read:
"accepted the evidence for ca 1124..."

Eleanor could have been born at any time between 10 April 1123 & 8 April
1124 to have been aged 13 at the time of her father's death, assuming this
did not occur on her birthday, if the source from Limoges is right on this
point as Lewis contended. Equally relevant to this discussion is the fact
that this is the earliest source giving such a definite indication of when
Eleanor was born.

The arithmetic has been simplified into 1137 - 13 = 1124.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 06 feb 2005 03:30:00

Hilarious!

Yet ANOTHER amusing cerebral flatus from Pogue Stewart.

CIRCA 1124 is NOT the same as 1124 solo.

Cooking the books again is our errant charlatan Down Under.

Yep, those neurological impediments to Pogue Stewart's competence are
accelerating in frequency and in severity.

W. L. Warren, certainly no slouch, simply says Eleanor was at least 13
and probably 15 when she married Louis in July 1137.

That's a measured and professional statement -- unlike much of the
overheated detritus we've been seeing here.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:73dNd.148941$K7.70906@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
|
| "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
| news:tJcNd.148895$K7.47795@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| >
|
| > Georges Duby had also accepted the evidence 1124 as the year of
| >Eleanor's birth.
|
| I somehow deleted a few characters from this sentence: it should read:
| "accepted the evidence for ca 1124..."

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 feb 2005 03:32:03

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P9fNd.35$Df3.1144@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Yet ANOTHER amusing cerebral flatus from Pogue Stewart.

CIRCA 1124 is NOT the same as 1124 solo.

Cooking the books again is our errant charlatan Down Under.

Not even an insect's brain could legitimately suppose that I am "cooking the
books" when MY OWN POST drew attention to this correction.

Spencer's dishonesty is clearly compulsive, he has dug himself into a hole &
simply can't help himself out of it.

Yep, those neurological impediments to Pogue Stewart's competence are
accelerating in frequency and in severity.

The incompetence of admitting & correcting my own error? Spencer should
suffer from a touch of the same. By making an insertion in the post I
overwrote a few letters - I seem to recall Spencer has had to rectify quite
a few of his own posts over time. He might check that in the archive when he
goes delving to substantiate his so-far entirely baseless accusations of
lying, etc.

W. L. Warren, certainly no slouch, simply says Eleanor was at least 13
and probably 15 when she married Louis in July 1137.

And this is put forward as justification for "MANY sources"? Does he think
SGM has other readers as silly & desperate to believe this as he is?
Evidence on a medieval point is not an appeal to vague modern authority, in
this case from another academic who might for all we know have been playing
games in order to enrich himself from the bank accounts of Hawaiian
unterpogues.

That's a measured and professional statement -- unlike much of the
overheated detritus we've been seeing here.

And did Warren cite and discuss the source provided by Lewis? If not, so
much for his outstanding professionalism: RHGF XVIII was available to him,
after all.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 feb 2005 22:16:02

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DkfNd.149172$K7.145453@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P9fNd.35$Df3.1144@eagle.america.net...

<snip>

W. L. Warren, certainly no slouch, simply says Eleanor was at least 13
and probably 15 when she married Louis in July 1137.

<snip>

And did Warren cite and discuss the source provided by Lewis? If not, so
much for his outstanding professionalism: RHGF XVIII was available to him,
after all.

As I suspected, Warren thought this detail important enough to include in
his biography of Henry II, but not so as to check it thoroughly.

Spencer has quoted only from a footnote - the text actually says (p. 43):
"Louis did not set aside his wife lightly. It was said that he loved beyond
reason the black-eyed beauty whom he had married in 1137 when she was
fifteen". (Barbara Cartland isn't mentioned in the acknowledgements, but
this might have been lifted from her works for all I know.)

The footnote cites Edmond-René Labande's 'Pour une image véridique d'Aliénor
dAquitaine', _Bulletin de la Société des antiquaires de l'Ouest_, fourth
series 2 (1952), in which the text discussed by Lewis was mentioned in a
note, apparently giving rise to Warren's uncertainty, but this is not
otherwise discussed.

Peter Stewart

Vaughan Sanders

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 07 feb 2005 11:24:00

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:mOvNd.150253$K7.108188@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DkfNd.149172$K7.145453@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P9fNd.35$Df3.1144@eagle.america.net...

snip

W. L. Warren, certainly no slouch, simply says Eleanor was at least
13
and probably 15 when she married Louis in July 1137.

snip

And did Warren cite and discuss the source provided by Lewis? If
not, so
much for his outstanding professionalism: RHGF XVIII was available
to him,
after all.

As I suspected, Warren thought this detail important enough to include
in
his biography of Henry II, but not so as to check it thoroughly.

Spencer has quoted only from a footnote - the text actually says (p.
43):
"Louis did not set aside his wife lightly. It was said that he loved
beyond
reason the black-eyed beauty whom he had married in 1137 when she was
fifteen". (Barbara Cartland isn't mentioned in the acknowledgements,
but
this might have been lifted from her works for all I know.)

The footnote cites Edmond-René Labande's 'Pour une image véridique
d'Aliénor
dAquitaine', _Bulletin de la Société des antiquaires de l'Ouest_,
fourth
series 2 (1952), in which the text discussed by Lewis was mentioned in
a
note, apparently giving rise to Warren's uncertainty, but this is not
otherwise discussed.

Peter Stewart



You might find something on this in Orderic Vitalis.
OV vi, 480-2, for the death of William VIII count of Poitou, X duke of
Aquitaine, 9 April 1137.
OV vi, 490, for Eleanor, his daughter marring Louis VI of France, July
1137.
Also see, A Luchaire, "Louis le Gros" (Paris 1890), nos 580, 589.

Taken from footnotes in Van Houts translation of the GND (viii 42) which
mentions the above but no dates.
I only have OV ii iii iv, Michael Cook might have vi?, if not.

The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis: Books V & VI (Oxford
Medieval Texts) Marjorie Chibnall (Hardcover - March 3, 1983)

Jamie

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 feb 2005 12:11:37

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cu7gid$p6h$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

You might find something on this in Orderic Vitalis.
OV vi, 480-2, for the death of William VIII count of Poitou, X duke of
Aquitaine, 9 April 1137.
OV vi, 490, for Eleanor, his daughter marring Louis VI of France, July
1137.
Also see, A Luchaire, "Louis le Gros" (Paris 1890), nos 580, 589.

Taken from footnotes in Van Houts translation of the GND (viii 42) which
mentions the above but no dates.
I only have OV ii iii iv, Michael Cook might have vi?, if not.

The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis: Books V & VI (Oxford
Medieval Texts) Marjorie Chibnall (Hardcover - March 3, 1983)

Thanks, Jamie - in vol. 6, p. 480 of Chibnall's edition (book XIII, chapter
30), Orderic relates the death of Eleanor's father & his wish for her to
marry the young king (who was already associate king, crowned in 1131. On p.
490 (chapter 32) is a brief account of the young king's trip to Aquitaine
(this was Louis VII, the son of King Louis VI who died very shortly after
the wedding).

But there is nothing at all to help with the birthdate of Eleanor. The
reference to documents printed by Luchaire in his biography of Louis VI is
given by Chibnall in a footnote about his son's journey to the wedding - I
haven't checked this, but I doubt very much that it will turn up anything
definite on Eleanor's age as the same citation doesn't appear in contexts
referring to this question.

Peter Stewart

Vaughan Sanders

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 07 feb 2005 17:30:39

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:J1INd.151148$K7.119260@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:cu7gid$p6h$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

You might find something on this in Orderic Vitalis.
OV vi, 480-2, for the death of William VIII count of Poitou, X duke
of
Aquitaine, 9 April 1137.
OV vi, 490, for Eleanor, his daughter marring Louis VI of France,
July
1137.
Also see, A Luchaire, "Louis le Gros" (Paris 1890), nos 580, 589.

Taken from footnotes in Van Houts translation of the GND (viii 42)
which
mentions the above but no dates.
I only have OV ii iii iv, Michael Cook might have vi?, if not.

The Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis: Books V & VI (Oxford
Medieval Texts) Marjorie Chibnall (Hardcover - March 3, 1983)

Thanks, Jamie - in vol. 6, p. 480 of Chibnall's edition (book XIII,
chapter
30), Orderic relates the death of Eleanor's father & his wish for her
to
marry the young king (who was already associate king, crowned in 1131.
On p.
490 (chapter 32) is a brief account of the young king's trip to
Aquitaine
(this was Louis VII, the son of King Louis VI who died very shortly
after
the wedding).

But there is nothing at all to help with the birthdate of Eleanor. The
reference to documents printed by Luchaire in his biography of Louis
VI is
given by Chibnall in a footnote about his son's journey to the
wedding - I
haven't checked this, but I doubt very much that it will turn up
anything
definite on Eleanor's age as the same citation doesn't appear in
contexts
referring to this question.

Peter Stewart



Yes sorry, that should have been "Louis the son of Louis the VI", one of
his other sons, Philip had also been crowned in 1131, but had been
killed in a fall from a horse soon after, according to Orderic and
William of Malmesbury.
Wace, Roman du Rou, only has "married at a young age"

Eleanor was apparently 30 in May 1152 on her divorce from Louis (don't
know the source for this), so if this is correct she was 15 in 1137.

Jamie

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 feb 2005 20:51:01

Yes.

Marion Meade, Eleanor's highly respected biographer, also held that
Eleanor must have been born in 1122.

This would make her 82 when she died in 1204.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:cu88e8$os7$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

| Eleanor was apparently 30 in May 1152 on her divorce from Louis (don't
| know the source for this), so if this is correct she was 15 in 1137.
|
| Jamie

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 feb 2005 23:02:21

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZyPNd.128$Df3.2179@eagle.america.net...
Yes.

Marion Meade, Eleanor's highly respected biographer, also held that
Eleanor must have been born in 1122.

This would make her 82 when she died in 1204.

This came from no better source than Alfred Richard, who elsewhere
contradicted himself on the point.

Again, this is discussed in the paper by Lewis.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 feb 2005 23:09:51

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cu88e8$os7$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

<snip>

Eleanor was apparently 30 in May 1152 on her divorce from Louis (don't
know the source for this), so if this is correct she was 15 in 1137.


This is a circular argument - the age of 30 at her divorce is simply
extrapolated from the supposed age at her wedding nearly 15 years earlier.
If true it would mean that Eleanor had been born before 21 March 1122 (by
modern reckoning), but there's no more substance to this than to anything
else we have seen.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 feb 2005 01:21:01

Hilarious!

We have yet to see a SCINTILLA of EVIDENCE for a birthdate of 1124 for
Eleanor of Aquitaine

Parsons and Stewart have both failed to deliver any.

All they do is bloviate.

'Nuff Said.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 02:48:10

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JvTNd.138$Df3.2138@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

We have yet to see a SCINTILLA of EVIDENCE for a birthdate of 1124 for
Eleanor of Aquitaine

Parsons and Stewart have both failed to deliver any.

All they do is bloviate.

'Nuff Said.

No Spencer, you are flatly lying agin - IT'S IN THE ARCHIVE. How many times
do you need to be reminded that SGM is not made up of mindless little
bananas that you can browbeat with hysterical nonsense?

I posted a link to RHGF XVIII where everyone can read the evidence for
themselves on p. 241.

It is YOU who have failed to deliver on your claim of "MANY souces" (i.e.
plainly meaning primary sources, as distinct from the "MANY" secondary
authories invoked inthe same sentence) for c. 1124.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 feb 2005 03:11:01

Hilarious!

Pogue Stewart pig-ignorantly thinks I have plumped for an 1124 birthdate
for Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Pig ignorant indeed that chap is.

Brain-Damaged....

I have not plumped for any date -- but Pogue Stewart HAS -- on several
occasions -- sometimes as simply 1124 and on other occasions as circa
1124 -- to give himself some wiggle room.

I HAVE pointed out that many fine scholars think Eleanor was born circa
1122 -- which is true.

Pogue Stewart and his sidekick, John Parsons, have offered not a
scintilla of proof to the contrary.

Deeelightful!

Kicking Pogue Stewart in the arse and watching him squeal is just
ABSURDLY easy.

Why its easier than shooting phlegmatic frogs in a barrel or drunken
kangaroos in the Outback, Virginia.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 03:13:21

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:J1INd.151148$K7.119260@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:cu7gid$p6h$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

You might find something on this in Orderic Vitalis.
OV vi, 480-2, for the death of William VIII count of Poitou, X duke of
Aquitaine, 9 April 1137.
OV vi, 490, for Eleanor, his daughter marring Louis VI of France, July
1137.
Also see, A Luchaire, "Louis le Gros" (Paris 1890), nos 580, 589.

<snip>

But there is nothing at all to help with the birthdate of Eleanor. The
reference to documents printed by Luchaire in his biography of Louis VI is
given by Chibnall in a footnote about his son's journey to the wedding - I
haven't checked this, but I doubt very much that it will turn up anything
definite on Eleanor's age as the same citation doesn't appear in contexts
referring to this question.

As it turns out this is the case - no. 580 on p. 264 is a paraphrase of the
information already given about the death of Eleanor's father & its
immediate consequences, citing Suger and Orderic as well as a chronicle that
can be found in RHGF XII at
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-50130), p.
84. Luchaire discusses the timing of this event, but not of Eleanor's birth.

Luchaire's no. 589 on p. 268 is about the wedding & crowning in Bordeaux,
including discussion of the date (by the way, anyone interested can find
some more detail on the coronation and the complete order of service that
was most probably devised for it in Elizabeth AR Brown's _"Franks,
Burgundians and Aquitanians" and the Royal Coronation Ceremony in France_,
Transactions of the American Philosophical Society vol. 82 part 7,
Philadelphia, 1992). The chronicle of Geoffroi de Vigeois is also cited, the
relevant passage can be found in RHGF XII on p. 435. Again, there is nothing
to help fix the age of Eleanor at the time.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 03:16:48

Of course this was a slip on my part, for "c. 1122". Hardly worth a mad
scene from the prima donna of falsehood.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:w9VNd.149$Df3.2263@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Pogue Stewart pig-ignorantly thinks I have plumped for an 1124 birthdate
for Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Pig ignorant indeed that chap is.

Brain-Damaged....

I have not plumped for any date -- but Pogue Stewart HAS -- on several
occasions -- sometimes as simply 1124 and on other occasions as circa
1124 -- to give himself some wiggle room.

I HAVE pointed out that many fine scholars think Eleanor was born circa
1122 -- which is true.

Pogue Stewart and his sidekick, John Parsons, have offered not a
scintilla of proof to the contrary.

Deeelightful!

Kicking Pogue Stewart in the arse and watching him squeal is just
ABSURDLY easy.

Why its easier than shooting phlegmatic frogs in a barrel or drunken
kangaroos in the Outback, Virginia.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 feb 2005 03:41:02

| Of course this was a slip on my part, for "c. 1122"....
| Peter Stewart

Hilarious!

There he goes again.

Pogue Stewart posts some piece of putrescent gibberish cast off from his
diseased and addled brain -- and then must sheepishly retract it in a
subsequent post, when it is drawn to his attention.

This shtik has become part of Pogue Stewart's little act as the Court
Jester -- the Fool of SGM.

Deeeeelightful!

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 03:46:06

Spencer can't recognise that an honest person simply admits errors, of a
kind that everyone (demonstrably including the Hawaiian unterpogue) makes -
and he hopes by endless ranting to draw attention away from his own
foolishness & dishonesty throughout this entire thread. It won't work: SGM
is made up of intelligent people who can follow the nub of a discussion, no
matter what nonsense may overlay it.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OxVNd.160$Df3.2271@eagle.america.net...
| Of course this was a slip on my part, for "c. 1122"....
| Peter Stewart

Hilarious!

There he goes again.

Pogue Stewart posts some piece of putrescent gibberish cast off from his
diseased and addled brain -- and then must sheepishly retract it in a
subsequent post, when it is drawn to his attention.

This shtik has become part of Pogue Stewart's little act as the Court
Jester -- the Fool of SGM.

Deeeeelightful!

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Ginny Wagner

RE: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 08 feb 2005 06:31:01

I've twice been to the hyperlinked site:


http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-50136


and twice been rejected as unauthorized (followed it once earlier from
another email). This isn't good for a gal's ego! Lol. How do I get to see
the relevant text?

Ginny Wagner

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 06:33:50

""Ginny Wagner"" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCEILMENLHOGHNKOOPOOIEPEEGAA.ginnywagner@austin.rr.com...
I've twice been to the hyperlinked site:


http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-50136


and twice been rejected as unauthorized (followed it once earlier from
another email). This isn't good for a gal's ego! Lol. How do I get to
see
the relevant text?

I don't know what the problem might be, Ginny - it works for me from the
same link every time.

I just posted the relevant text, so I hope this isn't an inconvenience for
you any longer.

These words might be inscribed on Spencer's heart by now, or at least known
by heart, if only he had one.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 feb 2005 08:51:02

You are quite right.

The link didn't work when I tried it either -- on THREE separate
occasions.

Looks like more bum dope from Pogue Stewart.

Par for the course...

And amusing.

Pogue Stewart = Top Banana.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

""Ginny Wagner"" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GCEILMENLHOGHNKOOPOOIEPEEGAA.ginnywagner@austin.rr.com...

| I've twice been to the hyperlinked site:
|
| http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... NUMM-50136
|
| and twice been rejected as unauthorized (followed it once earlier from
| another email). This isn't good for a gal's ego! Lol. How do I get
| to see the relevant text?
|
| Ginny Wagner

Vaughan Sanders

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 08 feb 2005 13:49:30

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZyPNd.128$Df3.2179@eagle.america.net...
Yes.

Marion Meade, Eleanor's highly respected biographer, also held that
Eleanor must have been born in 1122.

This would make her 82 when she died in 1204.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:cu88e8$os7$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

| Eleanor was apparently 30 in May 1152 on her divorce from Louis
(don't
| know the source for this), so if this is correct she was 15 in 1137.
|
| Jamie


Marion Meade says it is recorded that Eleanor was 82 when she died in
1204, but she doesn't appear to give the source.
(notes to p19)

Jamie

Vaughan Sanders

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Vaughan Sanders » 08 feb 2005 14:24:33

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:NzRNd.151530$K7.32356@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZyPNd.128$Df3.2179@eagle.america.net...
Yes.

Marion Meade, Eleanor's highly respected biographer, also held that
Eleanor must have been born in 1122.

This would make her 82 when she died in 1204.

This came from no better source than Alfred Richard, who elsewhere
contradicted himself on the point.

Again, this is discussed in the paper by Lewis.

Peter Stewart



Are you saying, that there is no contemporary record for Eleanor's age
at her death?
Marion Meade appears to be saying that there is.

Jamie

Peter Stewart

Re: Eleanor Of Aquitaine

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 feb 2005 22:50:34

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cual0q$7c8$2@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:NzRNd.151530$K7.32356@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZyPNd.128$Df3.2179@eagle.america.net...
Yes.

Marion Meade, Eleanor's highly respected biographer, also held that
Eleanor must have been born in 1122.

This would make her 82 when she died in 1204.

This came from no better source than Alfred Richard, who elsewhere
contradicted himself on the point.

Again, this is discussed in the paper by Lewis.

Peter Stewart



Are you saying, that there is no contemporary record for Eleanor's age
at her death?
Marion Meade appears to be saying that there is.

That's right, on both points: she was following Alfred Richard who made this
claim of a source but failed to deliver on it. He then contradicted himself.
82 was just his estimate, but it has worked its way into the discourse ever
since without a solid basis.

Andrew Lewis discussed this too. Apart from Richard's apparently imagined
source (not an unprecedented phenomenon for him), there are plenty of
demonstrably inaccurate claims made about the age of medieval people at
their deaths - including by contemporaries who were personally close to the
deceased.

Peter Stewart

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