Another Muhammad

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David Hopkins

Another Muhammad

Legg inn av David Hopkins » 02 feb 2005 19:18:26

Hello. Recently I sent a few charts to Leo van de Pas on Muhammad
lines. I don't think I sent this one in, which appears to be the most
reliable.

Here it is for your annalysis:

Descendants of: Muhammad (Prophet of Islam) 1 Muhammad (Prophet of
Islam) b. ABT 570 d. 8 Jun 632 m. Khadijah bint Khuwaylid b. ABT 565
d. 619
2 Ruqayyah bint Muhammad b. ABT 598 m. Uthman ibn Affan (Caliph of
Islam) b. ABT 674 d. 656
3 A'isha bint Uthman Al-Umayyah b. ABT 623 m. Marwan I (Caliph of
Damascus) b. ABT 624 d. ABT 685
4 Umm bint Marwan of Damascus b. ABT 648 m. Musa ibn Nusair (Umayyad
Governor of North Africa) b. ABT 635 d. ABT 716
5 Uthman ibn Abu-Musa Emir of Cordoba b. ABT 675 d. 731 m. Lampade of
Aquitaine b. ABT 700
6 unamed of Cerdanya b. ABT 731 m. Sigebert V (Comte de Razes) b. ABT
695 d. 768
7 Bera (Comte de Roussillon) b. ABT 760 m. Alda (Countess of
Carcassonne) b. ABT 775
8 Oliba I (Count of Carcassonne) b. 804 d. 837
9 Oliba II (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 827 d. 877
10 Acfred I (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 860 d. 906 m. Adelaide d'
Auvergne b. 867
11 Acfred II (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 890
12 Arsinde (Countess of Carcassonne) b. ABT 920 m. Arnaud I (Count of
Comminges & Carcassonne) b. ABT 908 d. 957
13 Roger I (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 945 d. 1012 m. Adelaide de
Melgueil b. ABT 953
14 Bernard-Rodger (Seigneur de Foix & Count of Bigorre) b. ABT 974 d.
22 Aug 1036 m. Gersinde (Countess de Bigorre) b. ABT 977
15 Clemence de Foix b. ABT 1015 m. Adalbert III (Count Longwy & Duke
Upper Lorraine) b. ABT 1012 d. 1048
16 Stephanie de Longwy b. ABT 1035 d. 30 Jun 1109 m. William I (Count
of Macon & Burgundy) b. ABT 1024 d. 12 Nov 1087
17 Gisela of Burgundy b. ABT 1073 m. Rainier III (Marquis of
Montferrat) b. ABT 1075
18 Jeanne de Montferrat b. ABT 1104 m. William Clito of Normandy
(Count of Flanders) b. ABT 1100 d. 27 Jul 1128
19 Maud Longespic of Normandy b. ABT 1118 m. William de Mortimer (Lord
of Wigmore) b. ABT 1090

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 02 feb 2005 20:10:25

David Hopkins wrote:
Hello. Recently I sent a few charts to Leo van de Pas on Muhammad
lines. I don't think I sent this one in, which appears to be the most
reliable.

Here it is for your annalysis:

Descendants of: Muhammad (Prophet of Islam) 1 Muhammad (Prophet of
Islam) b. ABT 570 d. 8 Jun 632 m. Khadijah bint Khuwaylid b. ABT 565
d. 619
2 Ruqayyah bint Muhammad b. ABT 598 m. Uthman ibn Affan (Caliph of
Islam) b. ABT 674 d. 656
3 A'isha bint Uthman Al-Umayyah b. ABT 623 m. Marwan I (Caliph of
Damascus) b. ABT 624 d. ABT 685
4 Umm bint Marwan of Damascus b. ABT 648 m. Musa ibn Nusair (Umayyad
Governor of North Africa) b. ABT 635 d. ABT 716
5 Uthman ibn Abu-Musa Emir of Cordoba b. ABT 675 d. 731 m. Lampade of
Aquitaine b. ABT 700
6 unamed of Cerdanya b. ABT 731 m. Sigebert V (Comte de Razes) b. ABT
695 d. 768

I doubt there is any documentation for such a marriage.

7 Bera (Comte de Roussillon) b. ABT 760 m. Alda (Countess of
Carcassonne) b. ABT 775

This is hughly suspect. Other reconstructions trace Oliba from other
families.

8 Oliba I (Count of Carcassonne) b. 804 d. 837
9 Oliba II (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 827 d. 877
10 Acfred I (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 860 d. 906 m. Adelaide d'
Auvergne b. 867
11 Acfred II (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 890
12 Arsinde (Countess of Carcassonne) b. ABT 920 m. Arnaud I (Count of
Comminges & Carcassonne) b. ABT 908 d. 957

Alternative parentage has been suggested for Arsinde.

13 Roger I (Count of Carcassonne) b. ABT 945 d. 1012 m. Adelaide de
Melgueil b. ABT 953
14 Bernard-Rodger (Seigneur de Foix & Count of Bigorre) b. ABT 974 d.
22 Aug 1036 m. Gersinde (Countess de Bigorre) b. ABT 977
15 Clemence de Foix b. ABT 1015 m. Adalbert III (Count Longwy & Duke
Upper Lorraine) b. ABT 1012 d. 1048

This Clemence of Foix was a genealogcal invention, hypothesized to bring
together several pieces of evidence. As it turns out, the data were
misinterpreted, and there is no reason to believe that ADelbert was ever
married, nor that Bernard Roger had a daughter Clemence who was mother
of Stephanie.

16 Stephanie de Longwy b. ABT 1035 d. 30 Jun 1109 m. William I (Count
of Macon & Burgundy) b. ABT 1024 d. 12 Nov 1087

Not of Longwy - that is linked to the unsupportable hypothesis above.
Her parentage is unknown.

17 Gisela of Burgundy b. ABT 1073 m. Rainier III (Marquis of
Montferrat) b. ABT 1075
18 Jeanne de Montferrat b. ABT 1104 m. William Clito of Normandy
(Count of Flanders) b. ABT 1100 d. 27 Jul 1128
19 Maud Longespic of Normandy b. ABT 1118 m. William de Mortimer (Lord
of Wigmore) b. ABT 1090

Longespic is a misreading of Longespee, the nickname of her
great-great-etc-grandfather, inappropriatly used here as a surname for
her. Besides that, there was no such daughter of William Clito, married
to "William de Mortimer" of Wigmore (nor, IIRC, was there a Mortimer of
Wigmore named William at this point. You might want to post more on
where you were going with this, so we can figure out where the authentic
genealogy begins.

taf

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 03 feb 2005 01:13:09

In article <c664e10e.0502021018.494df954@posting.google.com>,
david@88.am (David Hopkins) wrote:

... appears to be the most reliable ...

Here it is for your analysis:

....

6 unamed of Cerdanya b. ABT 731 m. Sigebert V (Comte de Razes) b. ABT
695 d. 768
7 Bera (Comte de Roussillon) b. ABT 760 m. Alda (Countess of
Carcassonne) b. ABT 775

Todd has already commented on other parts; but one additional red flag
worth noting here is 'Sigebert V, comte de Razes', who is one of the
essentially fictitious people in the great _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_
genealogy. The line presented here diverges from HBHG in gen. 8.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2005 02:51:02

Dear David,
The Part You didn`t publish to the list viz Malet to
Beauchamp of Hache to Petley, Manning and Waters etc. is perhaps the most
interesting portion of the lineage. I for one am curious about the details of the
Beauchamp of Hache to Petley of Down descent. Note there is also a descent
from William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke and regent of England and his wife Isabel
de Clare who descended from Brian Boroma , Ard Ri of Ireland by way of the
Kings of Leinster.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2005 12:58:39

David Hopkins wrote:
Descendants of: Muhammad (Prophet of Islam) 1 Muhammad (Prophet of
Islam) b. ABT 570 d. 8 Jun 632 m. Khadijah bint Khuwaylid b. ABT 565
d. 619
2 Ruqayyah bint Muhammad b. ABT 598 m. Uthman ibn Affan (Caliph of
Islam) b. ABT 674 d. 656
3 A'isha bint Uthman Al-Umayyah b. ABT 623 m. Marwan I (Caliph of
Damascus) b. ABT 624 d. ABT 685
4 Umm bint Marwan of Damascus b. ABT 648 m. Musa ibn Nusair (Umayyad
Governor of North Africa) b. ABT 635 d. ABT 716

You do need some excellent (!?) sources for 2>3
Ruqayyah married 1 Utba bin Abu Lahab (Abd al'Uzzu, Abu Utba) - oncle
to Muhammad and one of his worst ennemies - and as stated married 2
Uthman ibn Affan Caliph of Islam but as far as known, the only issue of
that marriage was Abd'Allah, a boy who died as a child.
A'isha bint Uthman could not be Ruqayyah's daughter - Uthman had other
wives - for historical reasons. The great division of Islam, cause for
wars that persisted until today, was between those who pretend that the
Caliphs had to be descendents of Muhammad and the Omayyads and the
Abassides, Caliphs of Damascus and Bagdad who took the political power,
after Ali ibn Abu Talib, the last Caliph of Islam and son-in-law to
Muhammad.
The first ones, followed the Immans, descendents of Muhammad and
nowadays are the shiites and the ismaelites. The second kept political
power for centuries and nowadays are the sunnites. The whole history of
Islam is a permanent revolt of shiites agains sunnites and the events
at Iran and Iraq can not be understood without this "historical frame".
Descendents of Muhammad were "sacred" and no "faithfull" could fight or
hurt them. If the Caliphs of Damascus were descendents of Muhammad the
permanent rebellion against them, specially in those first times, would
never happened.
I want to add a few notes (and apologise for my "portuguese styled"
english).
1. Women in Islam, were "non-existent" until Muhammad, and did not
improve much their condition after him. This to state that records of
mothers name's were a rarity and quite often you find information on a
woman's ancestry by male line without her own given name mentioned.
2. For the reasons I gave, any political leader in Islam, tried as hard
as possible to claim a descent from Muhammad, because it was a personal
safeguard and made the exercise of power much easier. This was not
possible for the Caliphs of Damascus, close to the events, but was
cause for hundreds of faked descents centuries later.
3. The only proved descent of Muhammad was through his daughter Fathma
as Azzara and only by her son Hassan (I am not 100% sure of this last
one). Anything knew - always possible at least in theory - would cause
an uproar in Islam and genealogists would certainly hear about it.
4. Please do not be offended - my intention is only to alert - but it
is not prudent to propose descent lines at that epoch without some
knowledge of history and local circunstance.

Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida

norenxaq

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av norenxaq » 03 feb 2005 17:01:01

3. The only proved descent of Muhammad was through his daughter Fathma
as Azzara and only by her son Hassan (I am not 100% sure of this last
one). Anything knew - always possible at least in theory - would cause
an uproar in Islam and genealogists would certainly hear about it.


Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida

Fatima had another son, Husein who also has descendants

Gjest

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2005 01:34:46

Quite right.
Husseyn was killed with his family, sons, cousins and nephews (by his
sister Zaynab) at Kerbala but one only son, Ali, was ill and did not go
to Kerbala. He was taken to the governor Yussuf to be killed but his
aunt saved his life.
After Ali's death, his son Zayd rebelled against caliph Hisham, and
when I first posted I did not know if all his family was also killed
(my possible line to the prophet is through Hassan and I did not give
much attention to Husseyn).
Just for anyone interested, Husseyn may have left descendents (already
excluded those who died young and those who rebelled and were killed,
v.g.Yahya) through his grandson Muhammad b.Ali al-Baqir, and his
greatgrandsons by Zayd, Hasan, called dhu L-dam'a, 'Isa, called
muyattim al-ashbal and Muhammad. I do not know if all had issue.
Regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida

norenxaq

Re: Another Muhammad

Legg inn av norenxaq » 04 feb 2005 02:11:02

Just for anyone interested, Husseyn may have left descendents (already
excluded those who died young and those who rebelled and were killed,
v.g.Yahya) through his grandson Muhammad b.Ali al-Baqir, and his
greatgrandsons by Zayd, Hasan, called dhu L-dam'a, 'Isa, called
muyattim al-ashbal and Muhammad. I do not know if all had issue.
Regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida

Husseyn does have descendants

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