This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

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Gjest

This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 05:25:27

Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the following.
I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is near
and dear to my heart.

Why would someone post a question here rather than ask a reference
librarian or go to a library and find the answer him- or herself? The
two questions were the ones about Queen Elizabeth I and her
relationship with her mother Anne Boleyn and the other had to do with
the advent of dating things in AD or CE as opposed to regnal dates--and
we didn't even get into AUC (ab urbe condita) which Justinian was still
using in the fifth century (AD or CE!).

Why not go to a library and find a biography on Elizabeth I and use the
index and look up Anne Boleyn??? Why not use an encyclopedia--print or
online? Why not do a hundred things other than post such a question to
this group? As I read the responses, I would tend to say that neither
question was really answered. As such, did those posters have to go a
library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?

Just curious.

Peter Stewart

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 feb 2005 09:10:35

Comments interspersed:

<mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1107231927.621172.91450@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the following.
I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is near
and dear to my heart.

Why would someone post a question here rather than ask a reference
librarian or go to a library and find the answer him- or herself?

This is somewhat easier than most queries raised on SGM: questions relating
to medieval genealogy often pop into people's heads when they are at home,
and last I heard reference librarians don't usually make house calls. It's
easier, quicker and much more convenient to see what leads may be offered by
the newsgroup rather than trudging off to a library for every passing fancy.

If as a reference librarian you really needed to ask, maybe that alone
provides you with an alternative answer.

And if you have better answers to any other questions raised here, you are
always free to offer these. Newsgroup discussions can be useful for
cumulative solutions, as weel as for serendipity, and for giving a variety
of angles to direct or deflect personal research rather than a guaranteed,
one-stop information service. No-one is bound to take an answer here for
gospel on any subject, and receiving one doesn't preclude asking elsewhere.

Peter Stewart

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 feb 2005 13:38:29

In message of 1 Feb, mhollick@mac.com wrote:

Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the following.
I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is near
and dear to my heart.

Why would someone post a question here rather than ask a reference
librarian or go to a library and find the answer him- or herself? The
two questions were the ones about Queen Elizabeth I and her
relationship with her mother Anne Boleyn and the other had to do with
the advent of dating things in AD or CE as opposed to regnal dates--and
we didn't even get into AUC (ab urbe condita) which Justinian was still
using in the fifth century (AD or CE!).

Why not go to a library and find a biography on Elizabeth I and use the
index and look up Anne Boleyn??? Why not use an encyclopedia--print or
online? Why not do a hundred things other than post such a question to
this group? As I read the responses, I would tend to say that neither
question was really answered. As such, did those posters have to go a
library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?

The nearest reference libraries that might be any good are twenty miles
away. When I get there the librarians may be busy or they may not know
the answers. The journey could take at least two hours and would cost
a few bob plus parking fees. Compare that with this delightful, and
knowledgeable, newsgroup where it only takes a minute or three to ask the
question and answers may be obtained within an hour or two and at no cost.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Doug McDonald

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 feb 2005 16:20:52

mhollick@mac.com wrote:

Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the following.
I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is near
and dear to my heart.



Why not go to a library and find a biography on Elizabeth I and use the
index and look up Anne Boleyn??? Why not use an encyclopedia--print or
online? Why not do a hundred things other than post such a question to
this group?

Because frequently librarians send people to unreliable
books, that's why.

S.G.M. is where the experts are. For genealogy I would not
trust a librarian outside of Salt Lake City or
Ft. Wayne.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 feb 2005 16:30:23

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:


library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?


The nearest reference libraries that might be any good are twenty miles
away. When I get there the librarians may be busy or they may not know
the answers.


For me, the nearest large reference library, the sixth largest
in the USA, is a two minute walk away. When I get there the
librarians may be busy and certainly won't know genealogy
or history answers. They may or may not have some clue
about the books that genealogists use. They have enough clue
to apparently not send the books to dead storage, unless
they are about Mary Queen of Scots, who they apparently
feel is overrepresented in the stacks. They don't have
enough clue to catalog them under the terms they are called
here in sgm.


Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 18:03:54

I always took email reference questions and phone questions. Real time
reference has been offered in this neck of the woods for years. No
trudging off to a library.

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 18:05:02

answers may be obtained within an hour or two and at no cost.
But are they the correct answers would be my question.

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 18:09:50

you've certainly got a large axe to grind. What about the Newberry
Library in Chicago? There are able librarians for genealogy in NYC,
Boston, Dallas, London and a host of other places.

What I'm hearing is that people ask questions here because they've been
turned off by librarians in the past. That's good to know. It's a PR
thing. No one has yet said the answers here are more verifiable.

SGM is filled with experts yes. However, I would posit that neither of
the two questions posed fall within the expertise of the experts here.

Chris Phillips

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 feb 2005 18:46:06

mhollickwrote:
answers may be obtained within an hour or two and at no cost.
But are they the correct answers would be my question.

If you have reason to think incorrect information was given in either of the
cases you mentioned, please be explicit.

Chris Phillips

D. Spencer Hines

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 feb 2005 19:01:02

Good Questions...

The answer is LAZINESS and/or SLOTH.

Coupled with functional ANONYMITY -- people don't like to admit they
don't know things -- face to face.

VARIETY -- They post here and get a whole string of answers -- which
treats their egos.

Then we have APATHY -- the PROCESS and SOCIAL INTERCHANGE are actually
much more important to the questioner than an accurate answer.

Some folks are trying to tie the EXPERTS up in knots too -- that's
another motivator.

Finally, they know the reference librarian will make THEM work to some
extent -- look things up....

Back to LAZINESS and/or SLOTH....

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

<mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1107231927.621172.91450@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the following.
| I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is near
| and dear to my heart.
|
| Why would someone post a question here rather than ask a reference
| librarian or go to a library and find the answer him- or herself? The
| two questions were the ones about Queen Elizabeth I and her
| relationship with her mother Anne Boleyn and the other had to do with
| the advent of dating things in AD or CE as opposed to regnal
dates--and
| we didn't even get into AUC (ab urbe condita) which Justinian was
still
| using in the fifth century (AD or CE!).
|
| Why not go to a library and find a biography on Elizabeth I and use
the
| index and look up Anne Boleyn??? Why not use an encyclopedia--print
or
| online? Why not do a hundred things other than post such a question
to
| this group? As I read the responses, I would tend to say that neither
| question was really answered. As such, did those posters have to go a
| library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?
|
| Just curious.

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 19:07:23

I don't think the questions were answered (my opinion). The
information that was given was correct in many cases but not apropos.
I think they hit around a good answer, but not a complete answer. Only
the askers will know this, but they haven't responded.

For instance: When did the AD system get used for dates. There was no
discussion of the fact that countries in Western Europe did not all
follow the same usage at the same time. We know that Dionysius Exiguus
devised the AD system and that Bede in his History of the English
Church and People used it. So that narrows the time for England to
between 532 and 731. No cites are given for any of this for someone to
check the facts or follow up. Perhaps it was enough to know that by
731 it was used and would be used along with regnal dates up to 20th
century in some cases. I don't know. Doesn't seem to answer the
woman's question.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 feb 2005 19:11:02

I'll bet you are quite competent at what you do.

Librarians are very special people -- treasures.

Lots of questions from school children, I imagine.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

<mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1107277434.243727.281290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

| I always took email reference questions and phone questions. Real
| time reference has been offered in this neck of the woods for years.
| No trudging off to a library.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 feb 2005 19:11:02

Yes, many librarians and library administrators consider GENEALOGY to be
frivolous and "Elitist" too.

So they prefer not to fund it or waste much time on it.

I've learned never to say yes to the question "Is this Genealogy?" when
posed by a librarian, whom I'm asking for an Interlibrary Loan.

One needs to say "HISTORY" or "BIOGRAPHY" -- those are "acceptable"
categories.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cto7ah$abd$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

| Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
|
|
| >>library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?
| >
| >
| > The nearest reference libraries that might be any good are twenty
miles
| > away. When I get there the librarians may be busy or they may not
know
| > the answers.
|
|
| For me, the nearest large reference library, the sixth largest
| in the USA, is a two minute walk away. When I get there the
| librarians may be busy and certainly won't know genealogy
| or history answers. They may or may not have some clue
| about the books that genealogists use. They have enough clue
| to apparently not send the books to dead storage, unless
| they are about Mary Queen of Scots, who they apparently
| feel is overrepresented in the stacks. They don't have
| enough clue to catalog them under the terms they are called
| here in sgm.
|
|
| Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 feb 2005 19:21:02

Bingo!

Often they are not correct.

DSH

<mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1107277502.449038.191180@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| answers may be obtained within an hour or two and at no cost.
| But are they the correct answers would be my question.

Chris Phillips

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 feb 2005 19:26:37

mhollick wrote
I don't think the questions were answered (my opinion). The
information that was given was correct in many cases but not apropos.
I think they hit around a good answer, but not a complete answer. Only
the askers will know this, but they haven't responded.

For instance: When did the AD system get used for dates. There was no
discussion of the fact that countries in Western Europe did not all
follow the same usage at the same time. We know that Dionysius Exiguus
devised the AD system and that Bede in his History of the English
Church and People used it. So that narrows the time for England to
between 532 and 731. No cites are given for any of this for someone to
check the facts or follow up. Perhaps it was enough to know that by
731 it was used and would be used along with regnal dates up to 20th
century in some cases. I don't know. Doesn't seem to answer the
woman's question.

With respect, "When did the AD system get used for dates" wasn't actually
the question asked by Florent Coache. What he asked was when AD dating
replaced the system of regnal years, with reference to English dates. So a
discussion of practices in different European countries would scarcely be
relevant as a response. Nor would Dionysius Exiguus or Bede (they were
mentioned in response to a "supplementary question" by Will Johnson). And
the trouble with giving a definite answer to the original question was that
it was essentially based on the misconceptions that the changeover occurred
at a particular time and that AD dating hadn't been used concurrently with
regnal dating.

In fact, the original questioner _did_ respond, to say "I would like to
thanks all of you for your answers. It has been an education to me."

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 19:56:35

I won't flog a dead horse, but that's the point. "I would like to
thank all of you for your answers" does not mean, I got what I was
looking for. Her example in the first question was English, but her
followup was pan-European:

Does that means that Columbus did no know it was the year 1492 when he
¨discover¨ America? How about the pilgrims of the Mayflower; Did they
know it was the year 1620? Did the Duke of Wellington and Napoleon
Bonaparte knew it was June 18th. 1815 when they met at Waterloo?

And the side questions and side followups are part of the problem.

With respect, "When did the AD system get used for dates" wasn't
actually
the question asked by Florent Coache. What he asked was when AD
dating
replaced the system of regnal years, with reference to English dates.
So a
discussion of practices in different European countries would
scarcely be
relevant as a response. Nor would Dionysius Exiguus or Bede (they
were
mentioned in response to a "supplementary question" by Will Johnson).
And
the trouble with giving a definite answer to the original question
was that
it was essentially based on the misconceptions that the changeover
occurred
at a particular time and that AD dating hadn't been used concurrently
with
regnal dating.

In fact, the original questioner _did_ respond, to say "I would like
to
thanks all of you for your answers. It has been an education to me."

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 feb 2005 20:41:45

mhollick wrote:
And the side questions and side followups are part of the problem.

The basis of the objection seems to keep changing.

Still, as long as we've clarified that the information given in response to
the original question was accurate and appropriate, and that the questioner
felt that the responses had been informative, perhaps something has been
achieved.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 21:18:29

You answered one of the questions, and if you read my initial post, I
never questioned the accuracy of your answers, but the motivation of
the questioners. You have taken a defensive position on this for no
good reason. Now I can point out that you didn't offer any cites to
back up your answer. I can also point out that 95% of the posters here
have egos the size of Greenland and those egos show themselves in
diva-like postings. One clearly needs to know that some answers to
some postings are rants, etc. or have political motives beyond
answering the question.

Point in case. I was merely asking a question and using two recent
examples, one of which you answered. You've obviously taken offense to
you being questioned. However, if you read the postings, I was merely
stating in general how does one know if an answer is correct. People
are assuming that answers are correct. You immediately have to prove
that you are correct (EGO alert).
You, in fact, did not answer my question. You balmed your own ego.

Bell HS

RE: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Bell HS » 01 feb 2005 21:41:02

Hi,

I am sorry about the direction this thread is going. To be quite honest,
since I asked an open question it is quite normal I get all kind of
different answers (depending of the angle one want to use it, which is quite
normal).

By the way Florent is a male name.

My question was with respect to an agreed date to standardize the dating AD.
By the way, I was not expecting to see that in UK there was no standard
dating accepted by ¨everybody¨ since up to recently.

I should have realized that since most of the independant countries, plus
the different religion, were all probably pulling the sheets on their side,
that it would be surprizing one would accept the idea of the others. That's
why I answered that It was an education to me to get those answers with
respect to the UK, the historian, the royalties, etc. each of them doing
their dating in an isolated form (but I guess with a kind of a logic
system).

Just to explain why I said I was surprized is that here (Quebec, Canada) I
am quite involved with genealogical research from the present time back to
the foundation of Acadia and Quebec (1604 & 1608) and some with the early
American states. All the documents (primary sources and secondary sources) I
have access to are always, I repeat always, mentionning AD dates. Those
documents are mainly from commoners buying, trading or selling
goods/household, but also from governors and from kings of France. So that's
why (and this will teach me for the future) I have assumed that
standardizing AD dating was an early or mid-medieval issue/fact.

So, I accept that the answer to my question was NO, there was no
standardizition of AD dating at a specific date in Europe, Middle-East and
Asia but there was all kind of initiatives from historian, nobility or
probably religious type and it was gradual.

But I am also happy to know that the idea of standardizing AD dates started
as early as the 6th century (most ancient AD dated document according to Mr.
Stewart).

So again, I thought my question was specific but the reality of the real
world (different countries and royalties and religion) made probably my
question obsoleted.

Thank you to all, you have been really nice to me.

Florent Coache
Napierville



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:27 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries


mhollick wrote
I don't think the questions were answered (my opinion). The
information that was given was correct in many cases but not apropos.
I think they hit around a good answer, but not a complete answer. Only
the askers will know this, but they haven't responded.

For instance: When did the AD system get used for dates. There was no
discussion of the fact that countries in Western Europe did not all
follow the same usage at the same time. We know that Dionysius Exiguus
devised the AD system and that Bede in his History of the English
Church and People used it. So that narrows the time for England to
between 532 and 731. No cites are given for any of this for someone to
check the facts or follow up. Perhaps it was enough to know that by
731 it was used and would be used along with regnal dates up to 20th
century in some cases. I don't know. Doesn't seem to answer the
woman's question.

With respect, "When did the AD system get used for dates" wasn't actually
the question asked by Florent Coache. What he asked was when AD dating
replaced the system of regnal years, with reference to English dates. So a
discussion of practices in different European countries would scarcely be
relevant as a response. Nor would Dionysius Exiguus or Bede (they were
mentioned in response to a "supplementary question" by Will Johnson). And
the trouble with giving a definite answer to the original question was that
it was essentially based on the misconceptions that the changeover occurred
at a particular time and that AD dating hadn't been used concurrently with
regnal dating.

In fact, the original questioner _did_ respond, to say "I would like to
thanks all of you for your answers. It has been an education to me."

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 feb 2005 21:43:34

mhollick wrote:
You've obviously taken offense to
you being questioned. However, if you read the postings, I was merely
stating in general how does one know if an answer is correct. People
are assuming that answers are correct. You immediately have to prove
that you are correct (EGO alert).

Sorry, but I don't have the time or the inclination for bulletin-board
name-calling.

I was concerned to clarify whether in this particular case you had any
reason to think the information that I and other had posted was wrong. As I
said, I am happy that we have established that you don't.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 feb 2005 22:01:13

mhollick wrote:
Now I can point out that you didn't offer any cites to
back up your answer.

I will just explain that the reason I didn't "offer any cites" was that I
was speaking from my own experience of documents, medieval and later.

Chris Phillips

Family Historian

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Family Historian » 01 feb 2005 22:51:02

As I tried saying earlier, and apparently my response went to the
individual - sorry about that-,

My reply: Not to mention that some of us out here have physical handicaps
that prevent the quick jaunt to any library no matter how close.


Ed Crabtree (Missouri)
familyhistorian@kc.rr.com
I like to find Dead People as well as Live People; maybe even a dead one who
thinks he is alive.
Outgoing emails scanned by McAfee VirusScan

CE Wood

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av CE Wood » 01 feb 2005 23:11:07

As Ed Crabtress stated in his message today, the reason some of us do
not go to the library, even if we have a "good" local one, is because
of physical handicaps.

As for asking questions on this list, there are many posters who are
expert on a particular country, reign, family, et alia. Many of the
reference librarians have not read, much less analyzed or studied, some
of the documents that many posters have.

When looking for information, I find it eminently preferable to go the
the most expert source I can. It does reduce the number of
genealogical errors.

CE Wood


mhollick@mac.com wrote:
Two recent postings to this list make me curious to ask the
following.
I am a professional reference librarian and so this discussion is
near
and dear to my heart.

Why would someone post a question here rather than ask a reference
librarian or go to a library and find the answer him- or herself?
The
two questions were the ones about Queen Elizabeth I and her
relationship with her mother Anne Boleyn and the other had to do with
the advent of dating things in AD or CE as opposed to regnal
dates--and
we didn't even get into AUC (ab urbe condita) which Justinian was
still
using in the fifth century (AD or CE!).

Why not go to a library and find a biography on Elizabeth I and use
the
index and look up Anne Boleyn??? Why not use an encyclopedia--print
or
online? Why not do a hundred things other than post such a question
to
this group? As I read the responses, I would tend to say that
neither
question was really answered. As such, did those posters have to go
a
library anyway? Do they feel they got an answer?

Just curious.

Sally Laine

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Sally Laine » 02 feb 2005 01:31:01

Living 200 miles from the nearest lirary let alone a reference library
(nearly 800 miles away) and not finding librarians are interested in out of
town queries this list is a lifeline.

Living in the North of Canada
Sally

----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries


I always took email reference questions and phone questions. Real time
reference has been offered in this neck of the woods for years. No
trudging off to a library.

Gjest

Re: This List (and the Internet) and Libraries

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2005 04:10:40

The questions asked were not genealogical however.

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