Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

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Gjest

Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 05:14:30

It would be helpful if you would indicate which generation in your
lines is the emigrant to North America (assuming they all are,
certainly some are). It seems you would be helped by our recent
discussion on bogus royal lines. Certainly, the Margaret (Hulins)
Bliss and Bridget (Allgar) White lines are not correct. I'm guessing
the Booth and Spencer lines are incorrect as well, but it's hard to
tell which of those generations are the emigrants.

It seems you are struggling first with finding ancestors that emigrated
for whom a royal already exists. The best reference book for this for
U.S. genealogy is by Gary Boyd Roberts "The Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants . . . " (2004). Although people on this list may criticize
the layout or the scholarship of the lines themselves, Mr. Roberts is a
bibliographer of the highest order and if any emigrant has any royal
line in print, he's seen it, evaluated it, and it's in his book. I'd
use that to check against your ancestry and see if you have any valid
lines.

Doug McDonald

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 feb 2005 16:17:52

mhollick@mac.com wrote:
The best reference book for this for
U.S. genealogy is by Gary Boyd Roberts "The Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants . . . " (2004). Although people on this list may criticize
the layout or the scholarship of the lines themselves, Mr. Roberts is a
bibliographer of the highest order and if any emigrant has any royal
line in print, he's seen it, evaluated it, and it's in his book.

That last statement is not true. It may NOT be in his book even if true.
GBR is obsessed with fame and fortune. If your immigrant ancestor
is not "important" he probably won't be in the book. Important means
either the immigrant being famous, some descendant being famous,
or the immigrant having a vast number of descendants. I think
he may also include, in order to avoid appearing silly, some
"usual suspects" who don't otherwise meet his criteria but are valid
and have been in similar books "for time immemorial".

Doug McDonald

Kelsey Williams

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 01 feb 2005 16:27:28

Doug McDonald wrote:
mhollick@mac.com wrote:
The best reference book for this for
U.S. genealogy is by Gary Boyd Roberts "The Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants . . . " (2004). Although people on this list may
criticize
the layout or the scholarship of the lines themselves, Mr. Roberts
is a
bibliographer of the highest order and if any emigrant has any
royal
line in print, he's seen it, evaluated it, and it's in his book.

That last statement is not true. It may NOT be in his book even if
true.
GBR is obsessed with fame and fortune. If your immigrant ancestor
is not "important" he probably won't be in the book. Important means
either the immigrant being famous, some descendant being famous,
or the immigrant having a vast number of descendants. I think
he may also include, in order to avoid appearing silly, some
"usual suspects" who don't otherwise meet his criteria but are valid
and have been in similar books "for time immemorial".

Doug McDonald

Hello,

I agree entirely with Doug on this issue. RD600 has a distinct
"famous" and Anglo bias. I am aware of at least a hundred Scottish
immigrants (who immigrated prior to 1800) with well-documented royal
descents who are not included, or even mentioned. I've also heard
complaints about the lack of any Hispanic lines in RD600; even the most
important ones seem to have been missed.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 01 feb 2005 16:44:45

And in some cases, the "important" person is merely a personal friend
of Gary's (like Julie Helen Otto, reference librarian at the NEHGS), or
Carl Boyer (his publisher). But no one else would really say they are
"famous" or "important."

On the other hand, I don't know why he doesn't include people like
Capt. Francis Champernowne or Alexander Rigby, who had been in the
_Ancestral Roots_ series for years and have easily traceable lines.
They may not have living descendants (or, at least, living American
descendants), but they were important in their time. Surely, if every
last wife of George Fenwick and Ferdinando Gorges merits inclusion,
Champernowne and Rigby do, as well.

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 01 feb 2005 17:19:43

Also, I wondered why he didn't at least mention Alexander Grant of
Rhode Island as a possibility (Grant was treated extensively in Michael
J. Boonstra's article in the 2002 _Register_, "Descendants of 'King'
David Chesebrough of Newport, Rhode Island, With Clues to the Identity
of His Son-in-Law, Hon. Alexander Grant, Esq., of Scotland, Newport,
Nova Scotia, Jamaica, and London").
But maybe that's his bias against Scottish lines at work --

Gjest

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2005 18:12:53

So someone should then write the definitive list of immigrants with
royal lines to North America, including these Scottish lines, Hispanic
lines and the work done on French immigrants to Canada. Who will do
it?

In any case, up to now, his is the only reliable reference source
available and clearly, Mr. Ramonat has failed to use it.

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 01 feb 2005 18:18:11

Maybe Kelsey wouldn't mind posting a list of the Scottish immigrants
not in RD600 (although that sounds like a lot o work).

Kelsey Williams

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 02 feb 2005 00:01:20

Hello,

In response to the various people who asked (on- & off-newsgroup) about
my claim of ca. 100 Scottish immigrants not included in Roberts, here
is my working list of Scots descended from the Stewart dynasty who
immigrated to the western hemisphere prior to 1800 and who are known to
have, or may have, left descendants (note that the Scots in Browning's
_Americans of Royal Descent_ are not yet included as I've only examined
Browning's work recently and still haven't had time to vet the lines
for accuracy; if people are interested I can post summaries of those
lines later). Most of the descents listed below are relatively firm
although a few are conjectures or simply place-holders until I find the
time to examine a line more thoroughly. Please feel free to make
comments, additions and corrections.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Name - Settled - Descended From - Source(s)
Alexander, James (1691-1756)NY Robert II III, 94
Auchinleck, Samuel (fl. 1781) Antigua Robert III II, 70
Baillie, Kenneth GA Robert II RD600, 142
Baillie, Robert GA James IV RD600, 85
Barclay, John (c.1650-1731) NJ James IV AR7, 228
Barclay, Robert (1648-1690) NJ James IV MCS5, 121
Bennet, Barbara NC James II RD600, 93
Bethune, Colin (1756-1820) NC Robert II I, 30
Blair, Sarah CT James IV RD600, 66
Boyd, James (1732-1798) MA James IV III, 95
Brown, Gustavus (1689-1762) MD James IV II, 64
Buchanan, Archibald (fl. 1723) VA Robert II II, 49
Buchanan, George (1698-1750) MD James V II, 65
Burd, James PA Robert II RD600, 135
Burnet, Isabel NJ Robert III RD600, 121
Calvert, Benedict (c.1724-1788) MD Charles II MCS5, 25; RD600, 13
Campbell, Alexander (1756-1782) MA & Jamaica James IV I, 17
Campbell, Colin (18th c.) America James IV I, 32
Campbell, David (b. 1729-30) NY James II I, 15
Campbell, Donald (fl. 18th cen.) Jamaica Robert III III, 90
Campbell, James (fl. 18th cen.) Jamaica Robert III III, 89
Campbell, John (fl. 1726) VA Robert III III, 88
Campbell, Patrick (d. 1782) NY James IV I, 25
Campbell, Robert (1726-1782) Jamaica James IV III, 86
Campbell, William (d. 1778) SC James V RD600, 42
Cochrane, Alexander MA Robert III RD600, 122
Colquhoun, Walter (1749-1802) Antigua James I II, 72
Coull, James (b. 1748) Antigua James IV III, 74
Coull, William (d. 1815) St. Vincent James IV III, 75
Cranston, John (c.1626-1680) RI Robert III MCS5, 51; RD600, 114
Cuninghame, Alexander (fl. 1762)VA Robert II II, 68
Cuthbert, James SC James IV RD600, 84
Dallas, Robert (d. 1769) Jamaica Robert II II, 60
Dalrymple, Campbell (1725-1767) Guadeloupe Robert II II, 66
Dalyell, Magdalen VA Robert III RD600, 124
Douglas, Henry (c.1683-1753) Antigua Robert III III, 93
Douglas, James Jamaica James IV RD600, 80
Douglas, William (d. 1783) VA James IV II, 46
Drummond, Colin (1722-1776) Quebec James II II, 56
Dunbar, William (1749-1810) MS Robert III RD600, 127
Dundas, James PA James IV RD600, 69
Dundas, Thomas PA James IV RD600, 69
Dunlop, Archibald CT James II RD600, 100
Elliot, Eleanor NY James IV RD600, 78
Erskine, Robert (1735-1780) NJ Robert II RD600, 135
Falconer, Alexander MD Robert III RD600, 117
Falconer, John (fl. 1746) Jamaica James IV II, 53
Falconer, Patrick CT & NJ Robert III RD600, 116
Fergusson, James (d. 1777) Tobago James V III, 76
Forbes, John (c.1710-1759) PA Robert III RD600, 123
Forbes, William (b. 1777) Jamaica Robert II II, 48
Fraser, John (18th c.) Carolina Robert II I, 44
Fraser, Thomas (1726-1760) Antigua James IV III, 77
Fraser, William (18th c.) Jamaica Robert II I, 45
Gordon, James (d. 1793) Jamaica Robert III II, 73
Gordon, Thomas (c.1652-1722) NJ Robert III AR7, 230; RD600, 121
Goulston, Elizabeth (d. 1819) Antigua Robert III II, 71
Graham, James (b. 1729) MA James II I, 27
Graham, Janet (b. 1765) America James V I, 34
Graham, John (1711-1787) VA James II I, 4
Grant, Alexander (1734-1813) MI James IV I, 19
Grant, Charles (d. 1821) St. Vincent James V III, 83
Grant, Lachlan (d. 1787) Antigua James V III, 79
Grant, Lewis (fl. 1804) Upper Canada James V III, 80
Grant, Patrick (d. 1771) Antigua James V III, 78
Haig, George (1712-1749) SC Robert II I, 14
Haldane, David (fl. 1765) NY James IV I, 26
Hamilton, Alexander (1712-1756) MD Robert II RD600, 132
Hamilton, Alexander (1755/57-1804) NY James II RD600, 96
Hamilton, Thomas (17th/18th c.) New England James IV I, 29
Hay, Ann Hawkes (1745-1785) NY Robert III I, 5
Henry, John VA James II RD600, 101
Home, George (1698-1760) VA James V MCS5, 55; RD600, 40
Houston, Patrick (c.1698-1762) GA James IV MCS5, 123; RD600, 71
Hunter, Robert (d. 1734) Jamaica James II RD600, 96
Irvine, John (1742-1808) GA James I MCS5, 124; RD600, 105
Irving, James (1713-1775) Jamaica James IV I, 13
Kennedy, Archibald (c.1685-1763)NY Robert III RD600, 120
Kennedy, William NC Robert III RD600, 120
Kinloch, James SC James V RD600, 37
Kinloch, John (b. 1724) Jamaica James I I, 38
Lindsay, David (1602/03-1667) VA Robert II MCS5, 60; RD600, 141
Livingston, Robert (1654-1728) NY Robert II MCS5, 58; RD600, 129
Livingston, Robert the Younger NY Robert II MCS5, 58; RD600, 130
Logan, James (1674-1751) PA James I MCS5, 148; RD600, 138
MacDonald, Alastair (fl. 18th cen.) America James IV II, 52
MacDonald, Allan (fl. 1773) America Robert II II, 50
MacDonald, Isabella (d. 1794) Ontario James IV I, 12
MacDonald, John (1742-1810) PEI Robert II I, 8
MacDonald, John (c.1771-1866) Ontario Robert II I, 18
MacDonald, Ranald (fl. 1784) America James IV II, 51
Macdonell, Alexander (d. 1787) Quebec Robert II I, 10
Macdonell, Alexander (d. 1819) Ontario Robert II I, 31
Macdonell, Allan (d. 1792) Quebec Robert II I, 9
Macdonell, John (d. 1813) Newfoundland Robert II I, 11
MacGregor, Donald (b. 1713) NB James IV I, 20
McGregor, John P.E.I. James IV RD600, 74
MacGregor, John (b. 1748) America Robert II II, 47
Magruder, Alexander MD Robert II RD600, 140
Mackenzie, Anne SC James V RD600, 37
Mackenzie, Mary SC James V RD600, 37
MacKinen, Daniel (c.1658-1720) Antigua James II III, 81
Mackintosh, Angus (1755-1833) MI James II II, 59
Mackintosh, Henry MA & RI Robert III RD600, 112
Mackintosh, John Mohr GA Robert III RD600, 112
Mackintosh, Lachlan RI Robert III RD600, 112
McLean, Allan CT James II RD600, 95
MacLean, Donald (d. c.1770) Jamaica James II III, 85
MacLean, Hector (fl. 1803-04) N.S. James II RD600, 98
MacLean, John (1771-1814) NJ Robert III RD600, 119
McLean, Neill CT James II RD600, 95
McLeod, Alexander (1774-1833) NY Robert III RD600, 119
MacNab, Allan (1760-1830) Ontario James IV I, 16
MacQueen, James (c.1760-1824) NC Robert II II, 63
MacRae, Duncan (1754-1824) SC Robert II I, 43
Menzies, William (fl. 1764) Jamaica Robert III III, 92
Mercer, Hugh (1726-1777) VA Robert II MCS5, 119; RD600, 136
Montgomery, William NJ Robert II RD600, 131
Munro, John VA Robert III RD600, 125
Murray, Barbara NC James II RD600, 94
Murray, James NC & MA James II RD600, 93
Nisbet, Walter (d. 1765) Nevis James V III, 84
Oliphant, Alexander (d. 1744) Jamaica Robert II I, 39
Oliphant, Catherine (living 1772) Quebec Robert III II, 57
Oliphant, Charles (d. 1750) Jamaica James II I, 36
Oliphant, David (living 1786) Jamaica Robert II I, 40
Oliphant, Laurence (18th c.) Jamaica James I I, 28
Orr, John VA James IV RD600, 82
Peter, Robert MD James IV RD600, 81
Roberdeau, Daniel (c.1727-1795) PA Robert II RD600, 130
Robertson, James (fl. 18th cen.)West Indies James IV III, 91
Rollo, Robert (1758-1807) America James IV I, 33
Rose, Robert VA Robert III RD600, 117
Rutherford, Walter NY James II RD600, 94
St. Clair, Arthur (1736-1818) PA James I I, 6
Scott, Euphan NJ Robert II RD600, 136
Scott, John NY James II RD600, 94
Scott, Thomas (1763-1814) Jamaica Robert II II, 61
Seton, Margaret NY James I RD600, 104
Seton, William NY James I RD600, 104
Shaw, Æneas (d. 1814) Ontario Robert II II, 58
Sinclair, Jean (fl. 18th cen.) Jamaica James V III, 87
Sinclair, Robert NY James V RD600, 38
Smith, John Press (1780-1815) SC Robert III I, 35
Spotswood, Alexander (1676-1740)VA Robert II MCS5, 61; RD600, 138
Steuart-Barclay, Elizabeth (b. 1759) Antigua James V II, 69
Stewart, Alexander (fl. 18th cen.) NC James IV II, 54
Stewart, Charles (fl. 18th cen.) NC James IV II, 55
Stewart, George (1700-1784) MD Robert III I, 3
Stewart, John (1682-1741) NH Robert III I, 37
Stewart, Patrick (d. 1772) NC & SC Robert III I, 1
Stewart, Patrick (fl. 1739) MD James II II, 62
Stewart, Peter (1725-1805) PEI Robert III I, 7
Stewart, William (d. c.1778) NC Robert III I, 2
Stirling, Charles (1742-1795) Jamaica James II I, 21
Stirling, Lewis (b. 1726) Jamaica James IV I, 23
Stirling, James (fl. 1745) Jamaica James IV I, 24
Stirling, John (d. 1818) CT James V I, 41
Stirling, Robert (1715-1760) Jamaica James IV I, 22
Stuart, Christina (1741-1807) VA James IV MCS5, 62; RD600, 70
Sutherland, William (d. 1817) Jamaica James II I, 42
Traill, John MA James V RD600, 38
Traill, Robert NH James V RD600, 38
Wallace, Hugh (1717-1774) Jamaica James IV II, 67
Young, William (1687-1736/40) Antigua James IV III, 82

[This is a direct paste from a WordPerfect 9 document & I apologize for
the formatting; hopefully it won't look too messy. I've used the
standard abbreviations {*} for the printed works cited. All the
sources which read I, II or III and a number refer to my own
unpublished research. If my math is accurate there should be 165
immigrants listed, 95 of whom do not appear in any published work on
royal descents.]

{* - RD600 = GBR, _Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants_; AR7 = Weis,
_Ancestral Roots_, 7th Ed.; MCS5 = Weis, _The Magna Charta Sureties,
1215_, 5th Ed.}

starbuck95 wrote:
Maybe Kelsey wouldn't mind posting a list of the Scottish immigrants
not in RD600 (although that sounds like a lot o work).

Diane Sheppard

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 02 feb 2005 00:15:18

Kelsey,
Thanks for posting this so promptly.
Diane Sheppard

Don Stone

Stewart (Scottish) RDs [was Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines]

Legg inn av Don Stone » 02 feb 2005 04:24:52

Kelsey,

Thank you for this very interesting list.

I have taken the liberty of putting it (at least temporarily) on my website,
http://www.donstonetech.com/ScottishRD/ScottishRD.htm,
in three forms:
sorted by name,
sorted by place of settlement,
and sorted by most recent monarch from whom descent is claimed.

Leo and Ian can copy it to Leo's site if they wish.

-- Don Stone


Kelsey Williams wrote:
Hello,

In response to the various people who asked (on- & off-newsgroup) about
my claim of ca. 100 Scottish immigrants not included in Roberts, here
is my working list of Scots descended from the Stewart dynasty who
immigrated to the western hemisphere prior to 1800 and who are known to
have, or may have, left descendants (note that the Scots in Browning's
_Americans of Royal Descent_ are not yet included as I've only examined
Browning's work recently and still haven't had time to vet the lines
for accuracy; if people are interested I can post summaries of those
lines later). Most of the descents listed below are relatively firm
although a few are conjectures or simply place-holders until I find the
time to examine a line more thoroughly. Please feel free to make
comments, additions and corrections.
[snip]

Denis Beauregard

Re: Stewart (Scottish) RDs [was Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal line

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 02 feb 2005 05:05:56

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:24:52 GMT, Don Stone <don.stone@verizon.net>
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

I have taken the liberty of putting it (at least temporarily) on my website,
http://www.donstonetech.com/ScottishRD/ScottishRD.htm,
in three forms:
sorted by name,
sorted by place of settlement,
and sorted by most recent monarch from whom descent is claimed.

Leo and Ian can copy it to Leo's site if they wish.

I am interessed about those 4:

Drummond, Colin (1722-1776) Quebec James II II, 56
Oliphant, Catherine (living 1772) Quebec Robert III II, 57
Macdonell, Alexander (d. 1787) Quebec Robert II I, 10
Macdonell, Allan (d. 1792) Quebec Robert II I, 9


I made some search in the DCB.

http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBioPrint ... ioId=38003

DRUMMOND, Sir GORDON, army officer and colonial administrator; b. 27
Sept. 1772 at Quebec, youngest of five sons of Colin Drummond of
Megginch and Catherine Oliphant of Rossie; m. 17 Oct. 1807 Margaret
Russell, daughter of William Russell of Brancepeth, at Brancepeth
Castle, England, and they had two sons and one daughter; d. 10 Oct.
1854 in London.

The 2 other don't show up in the DBC but I presume I could find
them in the scottish nobility or dictionary of american biography.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 02 feb 2005 18:12:22

Very interesting.

The Nisbetts of South Carolina, who were close relatives of the
Rutherford family of New York, are covered in _The South Carolina
Historical and Genealogical Magazine_, volume 24. I think they would
have some royal lines. I sent Gary Boyd Roberts a photocopy of the
article about six years ago, but he ignored it (apparently).

Kelsey Williams

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 02 feb 2005 20:28:38

Hello,

Could you send the full citation of the article? If I have that I'll
request a copy on ILL and see if I can find any royal connections.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams


starbuck95 wrote:
Very interesting.

The Nisbetts of South Carolina, who were close relatives of the
Rutherford family of New York, are covered in _The South Carolina
Historical and Genealogical Magazine_, volume 24. I think they would
have some royal lines. I sent Gary Boyd Roberts a photocopy of the
article about six years ago, but he ignored it (apparently).

Kelsey Williams

Re: Stewart (Scottish) RDs [was Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal line

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 02 feb 2005 20:35:03

Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:24:52 GMT, Don Stone <don.stone@verizon.net
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:


I have taken the liberty of putting it (at least temporarily) on my
website,
http://www.donstonetech.com/ScottishRD/ScottishRD.htm,
in three forms:
sorted by name,
sorted by place of settlement,
and sorted by most recent monarch from whom descent is claimed.

Leo and Ian can copy it to Leo's site if they wish.

I am interessed about those 4:

Drummond, Colin (1722-1776) Quebec James II II, 56
Oliphant, Catherine (living 1772) Quebec Robert III II, 57
Macdonell, Alexander (d. 1787) Quebec Robert II I, 10
Macdonell, Allan (d. 1792) Quebec Robert II I, 9


I made some search in the DCB.

http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBioPrint ... ioId=38003

DRUMMOND, Sir GORDON, army officer and colonial administrator; b. 27
Sept. 1772 at Quebec, youngest of five sons of Colin Drummond of
Megginch and Catherine Oliphant of Rossie; m. 17 Oct. 1807 Margaret
Russell, daughter of William Russell of Brancepeth, at Brancepeth
Castle, England, and they had two sons and one daughter; d. 10 Oct.
1854 in London.

The 2 other don't show up in the DBC but I presume I could find
them in the scottish nobility or dictionary of american biography.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

Hello,

Here are the lines you asked about.

---------------------
9. Allan Macdonell of Quebec


1. Robert II, King of Scots = Elizabeth Mure

2. Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany = Margaret Graham, Countess of
Menteith

3. Joan Stewart = Robert Stewart, 1st Lord Lorn

4. John Stewart, 2nd Lord Lorn = [unknown]

5. Elizabeth or Isabel Stewart = Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll

6. Catherine Campbell = Lachlan Og MacLean of Duart

7. Hector Odhar MacLean of Duart = _________ Mackintosh

8. Lachlan Cattanach MacLean of Duart = Marion MacLean

9. Hector Mor MacLean of Duart = Mary MacDonald

10. Janet MacLean = Angus mac Alister Macdonell of Glengarry

11. Donald Macdonell of Glengarry = Margaret MacDonald

12. Alastair Mor Macdonell of Collachie = [unknown]

13. Ranald Macdonell of Collachie = Marion MacPhee

14. Alexander Macdonell of Collachie = [unknown]

15. Allan Macdonell of Collachie, fought for the Jacobites in 1745,
died 1792 in Quebec. m. Helen MacNab. He immigrated in 1773 to the
Mohawk Valley in New York but fled to Quebec in 1779.


Sources

* "Angus Macdonell of Collachie," Dictionary of Canadian Biography,
http://www.biographi.ca.

* Edward Marion Chadwick, Ontarian Families: Genealogies of United
Empire Loyalists and other Pioneer Families of Upper Canada, 2v.
(Toronto, 1895-1898), I: 12.

* Herbert George Todd, Armory and Lineages of Canada, 7th Ed. (Yonkers,
NY, 1919), 102-103 (note that this source gives a different origin for
the Macdonells of Collachie than that usually given).

Peter Beauclerk Dewar (ed.), Burke's Landed Gentry of Great Britain:
The Kingdom in Scotland, 19th Edition, Vol. I (Wilmington, DE, 2001),
877 (Culachie [sic]).

Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry
(London, 1939), 1456 (Glengarry).

Peter Townend (ed.), Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage, 105th Edition (London, 1970), 1712
(Duart).

George E. Cokayne, et al., The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or
Dormant, 13v. in 14 (London, 1910-1959), I: 77-79 (Albany), I: 198
(Argyll), VIII: 138-139 (Lorn).
-------------------------------------------
10. Alexander Macdonell of Quebec


1. Robert II, King of Scots = Elizabeth Mure

2. Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany = Margaret Graham, Countess of
Menteith

3. Joan Stewart = Robert Stewart, 1st Lord Lorn

4. John Stewart, 2nd Lord Lorn = [unknown]

5. Elizabeth or Isabel Stewart = Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll

6. Catherine Campbell = Lachlan Og MacLean of Duart

7. Hector Odhar MacLean of Duart = _________ Mackintosh

8. Lachlan Cattanach MacLean of Duart = Marion MacLean

9. Hector Mor MacLean of Duart = Mary MacDonald

10. Janet MacLean = Angus mac Alister Macdonell of Glengarry

11. Donald Macdonell of Glengarry = Margaret MacDonald

12. Alastair Mor Macdonell of Collachie = [unknown]

13. Donald Macdonell of Aberchalder = Mary Fraser

14. John Macdonell of Aberchalder = Mary MacDonald

15. Alexander Macdonell of Aberchalder, died 1787, probably in Quebec.
m. post 1746 to Mary MacDonald. He immigrated to New York in 1773 but
later removed to Charlottenburg in Canada.




Sources

* "John McDonell of Aberchalder," Dictionary of Canadian Biography,
http://www.biographi.ca.

Peter Beauclerk Dewar (ed.), Burke's Landed Gentry of Great Britain:
The Kingdom in Scotland, 19th Edition, Vol. I (Wilmington, DE, 2001),
877 (Culachie [sic], Aberchalder).

Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry
(London, 1939), 1456 (Glengarry).

Peter Townend (ed.), Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage, 105th Edition (London, 1970), 1712
(Duart).

George E. Cokayne, et al., The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or
Dormant, 13v. in 14 (London, 1910-1959), I: 77-79 (Albany), I: 198
(Argyll), VIII: 138-139 (Lorn).
------------------------------------------
56. Colin Drummond of Quebec


1. James II, King of Scots = Marie de Gueldres

2. Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany = Catherine Sinclair

3. Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray = [unknown; not married]

4. Margaret Stewart = Colin Campbell of Glenorchy

5. Beatrix Campbell = Sir John Campbell of Lawers

6. Colin Campbell of Aberuchill = Jean Drummond

7. Jean Campbell = John Drummond of Megginch

8. Adam Drummond of Megginch = Alison Hay

9. John Drummond of Megginch = Bethia Murray

10. Colin Drummond, bap. 30 July 1722 at Errol, Perthshire. Immigrated
to Quebec and served as paymaster of the forces in Canada. He died
onboard H.M.S. Juno in May 1776. He married 24 January 1754 at
Forgandenny to Catherine, daughter of Robert Oliphant of Rossie.











Sources

* Gordon A. Comrie MacGregor, The Landed Families of Perthshire, Vol.
I: The Earldom of Strathearn (Dundee, 2003), 68 (Lawers), 71-72
(Aberuchill), 183-187 (Megginch).

Sir James Balfour Paul (ed.), The Scots Peerage, 9v. (Edinburgh,
1904-1914), II: 182.

Peter Townend (ed.), Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage, 105th Edition (London, 1970), 1878.
------------------------------------
57. Catherine Oliphant of Quebec


1. Robert III, King of Scots = Annabella Drummond

2. Mary Stewart, Princess of Scots = George Douglas, 1st Earl of
Angus

3. William Douglas, 2nd Earl of Angus = Margaret Hay

4. Helen Douglas = William Graham, 2nd Lord Graham

5. Christian Graham = Sir James Haldane of Gleneagles

6. Sir John Haldane of Gleneagles = Marjorie Lawson

7. Sir James Haldane of Gleneagles = Margaret Erskine

8. John Haldane of Gleneagles = Elizabeth Lundin

9. Beatrix Haldane = Robert Colville of Cleish

10. William Colville = Katharine Brown

11. Beatrix Colville = Thomas Oliphant, younger of Rossie

12. Robert Oliphant of Rossie = Jean Colville

13. Catherine Oliphant. Married 24 January 1754 at Forgandenny,
Perthshire, to Colin Drummond (No. 56) and immigrated to Quebec where
she was living on 27 September 1772.









Sources

* "Sir Gordon Drummond," Dictionary of Canadian Biography,
http://www.biographi.ca.

* Gordon A. Comrie MacGregor, The Landed Families of Perthshire, Vol.
I: The Earldom of Strathearn (Dundee, 2003), 360 (Rossie).

Sir James Balfour Paul (ed.), The Scots Peerage, 9v. (Edinburgh,
1904-1914), II: 572 (Cleish).

Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry
(London, 1939), 1012 (Gleneagles).

George E. Cokayne, et al., The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or
Dormant, 13v. in 14 (London, 1910-1959), I: 154-155 (Angus), VI: 53
(Graham).
----------------------------------------------

My apologies for the formatting (or lack thereof), as usual.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 02 feb 2005 21:01:05

A couple of years ago, I posted on Robert and Peter Hume of South
Carolina. Cussans' _Hertfordshire_, vol. 2, part 2, p. 250, is a chart
that shows the immigrants to Carolina. The M.I. of their close
relative in England, Sir Abraham Hume, 2nd Bt., d. 1838, states that he
was "of an ancient and honourable Scottish family." This Sir Abraham
is found in the _DNB_, and the end of his biography cites "Betham's
Baronetage, iii. 359-60," so possibly a royal line could be traced.

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 02 feb 2005 22:43:44

You can get to this two ways:

1. D.E. Huger Smith, "Nisbett of Dean and Dean Hall," _The South
Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine_ 24 (1923): 17-29.

2. It was reprinted in _South Carolina Genealogies: Articles from The
South Carolina Historical (and Genealogical) Magazine_, 5 vols.
(Spartanburg, S.C. : The Reprint Company, 1983), 3: 276-288.

Kelsey Williams

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 03 feb 2005 00:07:26

starbuck95 wrote:
You can get to this two ways:

1. D.E. Huger Smith, "Nisbett of Dean and Dean Hall," _The South
Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine_ 24 (1923): 17-29.

2. It was reprinted in _South Carolina Genealogies: Articles from
The
South Carolina Historical (and Genealogical) Magazine_, 5 vols.
(Spartanburg, S.C. : The Reprint Company, 1983), 3: 276-288.


Thanks very much for this and the Hume data. I will examine these
families and see if I can find anything.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Denis Beauregard

Re: Stewart (Scottish) RDs [was Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal line

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 03 feb 2005 06:40:01

On 2 Feb 2005 11:35:03 -0800, "Kelsey Williams"
<gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:24:52 GMT, Don Stone <don.stone@verizon.net
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:


I have taken the liberty of putting it (at least temporarily) on my
website,
http://www.donstonetech.com/ScottishRD/ScottishRD.htm,
in three forms:
sorted by name,
sorted by place of settlement,
and sorted by most recent monarch from whom descent is claimed.

Leo and Ian can copy it to Leo's site if they wish.

I am interessed about those 4:

Drummond, Colin (1722-1776) Quebec James II II, 56
Oliphant, Catherine (living 1772) Quebec Robert III II, 57
Macdonell, Alexander (d. 1787) Quebec Robert II I, 10
Macdonell, Allan (d. 1792) Quebec Robert II I, 9


Here are the lines you asked about.

Thank you very much !


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

Leo van de Pas

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 feb 2005 12:30:02

Dear Kelsey and Starbuck,

Somehow I think that pursuing Robert and Peter Hume of South Carolina's
possible royal ancestors may be a difficult task.

I do not understand what Starbuck gave in his email: "Cussans'
Herfordshire, vol 2 part 2, page 250 is a chart that shows the immigrants to
Carolina". What does this mean? Does it show Robert and Peter Hume's
ancestors and how they are related to their 'close relative' Sir Abraham
Hume, 2nd Baronet?

The question has to be asked do these to come from Hertfordshire?

If you take the Complete Peerage Volume V you find the entry for the Hume
Baronets,
it gives that
Robert Hume, otherwise Home, from Berwick moved to London,
he married Hannah Curtis
their son
Sir Abraham Hume, 1st Baronet married Hannah Frederick
their son
Sir Abraham Hume 2nd Baronet married Lady Amelia Egerton
I have only two daughters for them recorded but these two, through their
mother definitely have royal ancestors. In Ruvigny's Blood Royal, Tudor Roll
Table LXXXVI gives the connection.

I have at present only the 2nd Hume Baronet in my system but after the next
update the two earlier generations will be recorded as well.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines


starbuck95 wrote:
You can get to this two ways:

1. D.E. Huger Smith, "Nisbett of Dean and Dean Hall," _The South
Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine_ 24 (1923): 17-29.

2. It was reprinted in _South Carolina Genealogies: Articles from
The
South Carolina Historical (and Genealogical) Magazine_, 5 vols.
(Spartanburg, S.C. : The Reprint Company, 1983), 3: 276-288.


Thanks very much for this and the Hume data. I will examine these
families and see if I can find anything.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

______________________________

starbuck95

Re: Mr. Ramonat's royal lines

Legg inn av starbuck95 » 03 feb 2005 13:39:06

I do not understand what Starbuck gave in his email: "Cussa­ns'
Herfordshire, vol 2 part 2, page 250 is a chart that shows t­he

immigrants to
Carolina". What does this mean? Does it show Robert and Pet­er Hume's
ancestors and how they are related to their 'close relative'­ Sir
Abraham
Hume, 2nd Baronet?

Yes.

The question has to be asked do these to come from Hertfords­hire?

The Baronets had an estate in Hertfordshire, I think.

Robert Hume, otherwise Home, from Berwick moved to London, he married
Hannah Curtis


They were descended from Robert and Hannah, somehow (children or
grandchildren).

Svar

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