Earls of Angus CP being vague (I am being picky)

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Leo van de Pas

Earls of Angus CP being vague (I am being picky)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 jan 2005 23:31:01

Many a time details in medieval genealogy are very poor and at times hardly exist.
If you look at CP Volume I page 146 for the 4th to 6th Earls of Angus, the first two are without a wife but shill produce sons and heirs.

What I would like to have clarified is their deaths.
Gilchrist, 4th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1211
his son
Duncan, 5th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1214

If the possibility is there that Gilchrist was alive as late as 1211, there must be a reason why they say so, surely Duncan should be marked off as died between 1211 and 1214, as he could not have been Earl of Angus had he died before his father.
What do people think?
Many thanks,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Chris Phillips

Re: Earls of Angus CP being vague (I am being picky)

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 25 jan 2005 23:36:17

Leo van de Pas wrote:
If you look at CP Volume I page 146 for the 4th to 6th Earls of Angus, the
first two are without a wife but shill produce sons and heirs.

What I would like to have clarified is their deaths.
Gilchrist, 4th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1211
his son
Duncan, 5th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1214

If the possibility is there that Gilchrist was alive as late as 1211,
there must be a reason why they say so, surely Duncan should be marked off

as died between 1211 and 1214, as he could not have been Earl of Angus had
he died before his father.


It looks as though CP is claiming that both were alive in 1207, that
Gilchrist was dead by 1211 and that Duncan survived Gilchrist, but was dead
by 1214. I don't see any logical inconsistency in that (logically, both
Gilchrist and Duncan could have died before 1211, provided Duncan died after
Gilchrist). I wonder if any more detail is given in the Scots Peerage?

Chris Phillips

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Earls of Angus CP being vague (I am being picky)

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 jan 2005 08:49:07

In message of 25 Jan, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote:

Leo van de Pas wrote:

If you look at CP Volume I page 146 for the 4th to 6th Earls of
Angus, the first two are without a wife but shill produce sons and
heirs.

What I would like to have clarified is their deaths.
Gilchrist, 4th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1211
his son
Duncan, 5th Earl of Angus died between 1207 and 1214

If the possibility is there that Gilchrist was alive as late as
1211, there must be a reason why they say so, surely Duncan should
be marked off as died between 1211 and 1214, as he could not have
been Earl of Angus had he died before his father.


It looks as though CP is claiming that both were alive in 1207, that
Gilchrist was dead by 1211 and that Duncan survived Gilchrist, but
was dead by 1214. I don't see any logical inconsistency in that
(logically, both Gilchrist and Duncan could have died before 1211,
provided Duncan died after Gilchrist). I wonder if any more detail is
given in the Scots Peerage?

SP I, 162 says of Gilchrist that "The earl was apparently alive until
about 1204, or perhaps later".

SP I, 165 says nothing definite about Duncan's death apart from saying
the Malcolm his son was confirming his father's charters from 1214. So
SP thinks Duncan died in 1214 or before.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Chris Phillips

Re: Earls of Angus CP being vague (I am being picky)

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 26 jan 2005 09:58:55

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
SP I, 162 says of Gilchrist that "The earl was apparently alive until
about 1204, or perhaps later".

SP I, 165 says nothing definite about Duncan's death apart from saying
the Malcolm his son was confirming his father's charters from 1214. So
SP thinks Duncan died in 1214 or before.

Thanks for that information. Someone else has emailed me off list to say
that SP also says that Earl Duncan was alive in 1211. If correct, that would
narrow the limitsm given in CP.

Chris Phillips

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Earls of Angus CP

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 jan 2005 11:00:31

In message of 26 Jan, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
SP I, 162 says of Gilchrist that "The earl was apparently alive
until about 1204, or perhaps later".

SP I, 165 says nothing definite about Duncan's death apart from
saying the Malcolm his son was confirming his father's charters
from 1214. So SP thinks Duncan died in 1214 or before.

Thanks for that information. Someone else has emailed me off list to
say that SP also says that Earl Duncan was alive in 1211. If correct,
that would narrow the limits given in CP.

Except that CP I on Angus was published in 1910 after SP I on Angus in
1904 so, presumably, the CP team would have been aware of what SP said.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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