The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois and La

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JBernigaud

The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois and La

Legg inn av JBernigaud » 25 jan 2005 10:17:39

I would like to know about the ancestry of Adelais, married first to Robert
count of Vermandois, then to Lambert count of Chalon-sur-Saône. I only
know that she was the daughter of Giselbert and the granddaughter of
Manasses. Could anyone give me what is proved about it, then what are the
main hypothesis about her ancestry?

Peter Stewart

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 jan 2005 12:36:15

"JBernigaud" <julienbernigaud@[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:f03712249e265faef85bf4b0e61a6e5b@localhost.talkabouteducation.com...
I would like to know about the ancestry of Adelais, married first to Robert
count of Vermandois, then to Lambert count of Chalon-sur-Saône. I only
know that she was the daughter of Giselbert and the granddaughter of
Manasses. Could anyone give me what is proved about it, then what are the
main hypothesis about her ancestry?

These are two different women named Adelais, not the same person.

Robert was count not of Vermandois, which passed to his brother, but of
Troyes. His wife Adelais, also known as "Wera", was a duaghter of Gislebert,
duke of the Burgundians (died 956) who was also count of count of Autun,
Chalon and (as Karl Ferdinand Werner established) Troyes. This Adelais last
occurred in August 967.

Lambert of Chalon (died, most probably, in 978) may have had two wives, but
the only one recorded was a different Adelais. She last occurred in April
988, having remarried (as his second wife) Gausfred Grisagonella, count of
Anjou (died 987).

Peter Stewart

JBernigaud

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av JBernigaud » 25 jan 2005 13:14:14

Thank you for answer, Peter. I can see a bit clearlier now. It was the
ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert of Troyes, that I was interested in.
More precisely, what do we now about the families of Giselbert's wife and
mother? I have read (sorry, I don't have the exact references with me)
that he was son of an Ermengarde, who could possibly have for maternal
grandfather Louis II, king of Italy. And Giselbert's wife would be a
relative to the dukes of Burgundy Richard le Justicier and Hugues le
Noir?

Julien Bernigaud

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 25 jan 2005 14:36:14

[Note for those who are not used to it: I have used the traditional
quoting signs, the right handed chevrons, to show what the original
text was and to which I am replying. Then I have put my replies to
each of their points interleaved in their text so that you may compare
the original with the response. The advantage of this is that it gives
a much tighter discipline on the public debate, which is the final
point: I am not writing to an individual, I am writing to everybody so
that all may, or may not, join in.]

In message of 25 Jan, "JBernigaud" <julienbernigaud@[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

I would like to know about the ancestry of Adelais, married first to
Robert count of Vermandois, then to Lambert count of
Chalon-sur-Saône. I only know that she was the daughter of Giselbert
and the granddaughter of Manasses.

Have you tried Leo's excellent Genealogics site?

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?pe ... 2&tree=LEO

Could anyone give me what is proved about it,

Proof? A very difficult concept. I think terms need to be defined
first. And in the end we have to work out what we accept as proved and
what is probable and what is doubtful and what is false; I don't think
anyone can make those decisions for us.

then what are the main hypothesis about her ancestry?

The above site must be a very good start. Leo includes references so
we know where to go to to get more details.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

JBernigaud

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av JBernigaud » 25 jan 2005 15:16:28

Thank you Tim. The site is really good. But there is a problem with the
question I asked. Leo wrote on his site that Adele Werra was married first
to Robert of Troyes and secondly to Lambert of Chalon. But Peter has just
told me that there were two different Adelais! I feel that this topic is
far to be ending. Leo has also forgotten to give Giselbert's father. I
thought everyone was agree that he was the son of the count Manasses. I am
wrong?

Julien Bernigaud

Roger LeBlanc

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 25 jan 2005 21:50:03

Peter Stewart wrote:

Robert was count not of Vermandois, which passed to his brother, but of
Troyes. His wife Adelais, also known as "Wera", was a duaghter of Gislebert,
duke of the Burgundians (died 956) who was also count of count of Autun,
Chalon and (as Karl Ferdinand Werner established) Troyes. This Adelais last
occurred in August 967.

Lambert of Chalon (died, most probably, in 978) may have had two wives, but
the only one recorded was a different Adelais. She last occurred in April
988, having remarried (as his second wife) Gausfred Grisagonella, count of
Anjou (died 987).

Peter Stewart



To further complicate the question, wasn't the first wife of Gausfred

Grisagonella a daughter of Adelais/Wera and Robert of Troyes?

Roger LeBlanc

Peter Stewart

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 jan 2005 23:12:19

"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:41F6B04E.5060303@mts.net...
Peter Stewart wrote:

Robert was count not of Vermandois, which passed to his brother, but of
Troyes. His wife Adelais, also known as "Wera", was a duaghter of
Gislebert, duke of the Burgundians (died 956) who was also count of count
of Autun, Chalon and (as Karl Ferdinand Werner established) Troyes. This
Adelais last occurred in August 967.

Lambert of Chalon (died, most probably, in 978) may have had two wives,
but the only one recorded was a different Adelais. She last occurred in
April 988, having remarried (as his second wife) Gausfred Grisagonella,
count of Anjou (died 987).

Peter Stewart

To further complicate the question, wasn't the first wife of Gausfred
Grisagonella a daughter of Adelais/Wera and Robert of Troyes?

This may be so, but we have no direct evidence for the connection earlier
than a brief ancestry table for Count Gausfred Martel (died 1060) that was
appended in the 12th century to the annals of Saint-Aubin, as follows:

Herbertus de Tricis


|

Robertus


|

Adela

|

Fulco

|

Gaufridus Martellus



[_Recueil d'annales angevines et vendômoises_, edited by Louis Halphen
(Paris, 1903) p. 49]



This erred in making Count Robert's father Heribert also count of Troyes -
he was count of Soissons, Vermandois & Meaux. As mentioned before, Karl
Ferdinand Werner demonstrated that Robert's father-in-law, Duke Gislebert of
Burgundy, was count of Troyes.



At any rate, this Countess Adela of Anjou died on or soon after 6 March 974
when she was, by the account of her own charter, "in extremis". She is quite
distinct in the records from her husband's second wife, who was married to
Count Lambert of Chalon until February 978.



Peter Stewart



Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 jan 2005 23:37:00

"JBernigaud" <julienbernigaud@[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:7f577b5d1e71965ba0ba8a6e9facf9e6@localhost.talkabouteducation.com...
Thank you for answer, Peter. I can see a bit clearlier now. It was the
ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert of Troyes, that I was interested in.
More precisely, what do we now about the families of Giselbert's wife and
mother? I have read (sorry, I don't have the exact references with me)
that he was son of an Ermengarde, who could possibly have for maternal
grandfather Louis II, king of Italy. And Giselbert's wife would be a
relative to the dukes of Burgundy Richard le Justicier and Hugues le
Noir?

The family of Gislebert's wife Ermengardis is not recorded - she may have
been connected to a number of Burgundian magnates, but I would caution you
to be wary of any secondary authority making out elaborate relationships for
people like her whose immediate family is uncertain. This kind of piling up
of conjectures upon speculations to form ever-diminishing circles of kinship
amongst the aristocracy is a fashionable pursuit, but often no more useful
to the study of history or genealogy than the pastime of building actual
houses of cards. If even a substantial portion of it were true, we might
expect to hear howls of indignation and endless chafing against the Church's
restrictions on consanguineous unions, that would have utterly flouted this
supposed custom of concentrated endogamy for the Frankish nobility. But we
don't: instead, it was co-opted as a tool of convenience to put aside
unwanted spouses - yet on nothing like the scale that such speculative
schemes of kinship would have allowed around the time of the people in
question.

Duke Gislebert's father was Manasser, count apparently of Chalon (or maybe
of Dijon, where he exercised comital authority) from the end of the 9th
century until some time before 920. His mother, Count Manasser's wife, was
another Ermengardis whose family is not certain. She _may_ have been a
daughter of Boso of Vienne, king of Provence, but if so she was much more
probably from his first marriage (to an unknown lady) than from his second
(to Ermengardis, daughter of Emperor Louis II).

Peter Stewart

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

RE: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Richard C. Browning, Jr. » 26 jan 2005 03:21:01

Peter Stewart wrote


"JBernigaud" <julienbernigaud@[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:f03712249e265faef85bf4b0e61a6e5b@localhost.talkabouteduca
tion.com...
I would like to know about the ancestry of Adelais, married first to
Robert count of Vermandois, then to Lambert count of
Chalon-sur-Saône.
I only know that she was the daughter of Giselbert and the
granddaughter of Manasses. Could anyone give me what is
proved about
it, then what are the main hypothesis about her ancestry?

These are two different women named Adelais, not the same person.

Robert was count not of Vermandois, which passed to his
brother, but of
Troyes. His wife Adelais, also known as "Wera", was a
duaghter of Gislebert,
duke of the Burgundians (died 956) who was also count of
count of Autun,
Chalon and (as Karl Ferdinand Werner established) Troyes.
This Adelais last
occurred in August 967.

Lambert of Chalon (died, most probably, in 978) may have had
two wives, but
the only one recorded was a different Adelais. She last
occurred in April
988, having remarried (as his second wife) Gausfred
Grisagonella, count of
Anjou (died 987).

Peter Stewart




While this question may turn out to be OT, having lived in the region of Chalon sur Saone
for a time, I will ask anyway. At what period in time did the Chalon referenced here
become known as Chalon sur Saone? I believe the other Chalons is currently spelled with
an 's' as written. During the Medieval Period, was this difference in spelling adequate
to differentiate the two. Also which of the two was more important during this period?

Thanks for your indulgence.

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Peter Stewart

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 jan 2005 03:39:08

""Richard C. Browning, Jr."" <brownrc@anet-dfw.com> wrote in message
news:000001c5034c$87f782b0$8a0c020a@MyNotbook...

While this question may turn out to be OT, having lived in the region of
Chalon sur Saone
for a time, I will ask anyway. At what period in time did the Chalon
referenced here
become known as Chalon sur Saone? I believe the other Chalons is
currently spelled with
an 's' as written. During the Medieval Period, was this difference in
spelling adequate
to differentiate the two. Also which of the two was more important during
this period?

The relative importance of these towns depends on timing in the medieval
era - Chalon-sur-Saône is more notable from a genealogical point of view,
because it had lay counts whereas Châlons-sur-Marne owed its prominence
rather to bishops who were also peers of France.

Chalon-sur-Saône was once the capital of Burgundy. Its name in Latin is
'Cabillonum', and that of Châlons-sur-Marne is 'Catalaunis'.

Peter Stewart

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

RE: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Richard C. Browning, Jr. » 26 jan 2005 04:20:02

Thank yor for the information Peter,

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stewart [mailto:p_m_stewart@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 20:39
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de
Vermandois and Lambert de Chalon



""Richard C. Browning, Jr."" <brownrc@anet-dfw.com> wrote in message
news:000001c5034c$87f782b0$8a0c020a@MyNotbook...

While this question may turn out to be OT, having lived in
the region
of
Chalon sur Saone
for a time, I will ask anyway. At what period in time did
the Chalon
referenced here
become known as Chalon sur Saone? I believe the other Chalons is
currently spelled with
an 's' as written. During the Medieval Period, was this
difference in
spelling adequate
to differentiate the two. Also which of the two was more
important during
this period?

The relative importance of these towns depends on timing in
the medieval
era - Chalon-sur-Saône is more notable from a genealogical
point of view,
because it had lay counts whereas Châlons-sur-Marne owed its
prominence
rather to bishops who were also peers of France.

Chalon-sur-Saône was once the capital of Burgundy. Its name
in Latin is
'Cabillonum', and that of Châlons-sur-Marne is 'Catalaunis'.

Peter Stewart



Pierre Aronax

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Pierre Aronax » 26 jan 2005 18:10:03

From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois and
Lambert de Chalon
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:39:08 GMT

""Richard C. Browning, Jr."" <brownrc@anet-dfw.com> wrote in message
news:000001c5034c$87f782b0$8a0c020a@MyNotbook...

While this question may turn out to be OT, having lived in the region of
Chalon sur Saone
for a time, I will ask anyway. At what period in time did the Chalon
referenced here
become known as Chalon sur Saone? I believe the other Chalons is
currently spelled with
an 's' as written. During the Medieval Period, was this difference in
spelling adequate
to differentiate the two. Also which of the two was more important
during
this period?

The relative importance of these towns depends on timing in the medieval
era - Chalon-sur-Saône is more notable from a genealogical point of view,
because it had lay counts whereas Châlons-sur-Marne owed its prominence
rather to bishops who were also peers of France.

Chalon-sur-Saône was once the capital of Burgundy. Its name in Latin is
'Cabillonum', and that of Châlons-sur-Marne is 'Catalaunis'.

Châlons-sur-Marne a changé de nom et s'appelle désormais
Châlons-en-Champagne.

Pierre

Leo van de Pas

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jan 2005 22:51:01

Dear Peter,

I started to implement your remarksa but then stumbled over something.

You give Lambert de Chalon died probably 978, his (second) wife Adelais
occured last in April 988, having remarried as his second wife Gausfred
Grisagonella, count of Anjou (died 987)

ES III/1 Tafel 116 gives the Count of Anjou, I know ES is not as good with
French information as it is with German, but here it goes
Geoffrey I Grisegonelle, Count of Anjou died (in battle I presume) 21 July
987.
He married (1) Adele de Donzy
He married (2) March 979 Adelaide de Vergy, widow of 1 Robert Comte de Meaux
et de Troyes, widow of 2 Lambert Comte de Chalon-sur-Saone, daughter of
Giselbert Duke of Burgundy (Buvines)

This merges the two into one again. Where do we go from here?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois and
Lambert de Chalon


"JBernigaud" <julienbernigaud@[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:f03712249e265faef85bf4b0e61a6e5b@localhost.talkabouteducation.com...
I would like to know about the ancestry of Adelais, married first to
Robert
count of Vermandois, then to Lambert count of Chalon-sur-Saône. I only
know that she was the daughter of Giselbert and the granddaughter of
Manasses. Could anyone give me what is proved about it, then what are
the
main hypothesis about her ancestry?

These are two different women named Adelais, not the same person.

Robert was count not of Vermandois, which passed to his brother, but of
Troyes. His wife Adelais, also known as "Wera", was a duaghter of
Gislebert,
duke of the Burgundians (died 956) who was also count of count of Autun,
Chalon and (as Karl Ferdinand Werner established) Troyes. This Adelais
last
occurred in August 967.

Lambert of Chalon (died, most probably, in 978) may have had two wives,
but
the only one recorded was a different Adelais. She last occurred in April
988, having remarried (as his second wife) Gausfred Grisagonella, count of
Anjou (died 987).

Peter Stewart



Peter Stewart

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 jan 2005 23:31:55

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:001301c5064b$d8b9db60$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Peter,

I started to implement your remarksa but then stumbled over something.

You give Lambert de Chalon died probably 978, his (second) wife Adelais
occured last in April 988, having remarried as his second wife Gausfred
Grisagonella, count of Anjou (died 987)

ES III/1 Tafel 116 gives the Count of Anjou, I know ES is not as good with
French information as it is with German, but here it goes
Geoffrey I Grisegonelle, Count of Anjou died (in battle I presume) 21 July
987.
He married (1) Adele de Donzy
He married (2) March 979 Adelaide de Vergy, widow of 1 Robert Comte de
Meaux
et de Troyes, widow of 2 Lambert Comte de Chalon-sur-Saone, daughter of
Giselbert Duke of Burgundy (Buvines)

This merges the two into one again. Where do we go from here?

I think ES is following Mabille and others who were confused on this point -
Count Robert of Meaux & Troyes died after 19 June 966, and his widow is not
known to have remarried. In any event she could not have been the same as
Adelais the wife of Count Lambert of Chalon if this lady was mother of both
his recorded children, as certainly appears to be the case. His daughter
Mathildis was definitely married by 978, and probably some years before then
as her son Count Thibaud of Chalon was perhaps born ca 970.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 jan 2005 00:01:01

Many thanks for this. I have split the one lady into two.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois and
Lambert de Chalon


""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:001301c5064b$d8b9db60$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Peter,

I started to implement your remarksa but then stumbled over something.

You give Lambert de Chalon died probably 978, his (second) wife Adelais
occured last in April 988, having remarried as his second wife Gausfred
Grisagonella, count of Anjou (died 987)

ES III/1 Tafel 116 gives the Count of Anjou, I know ES is not as good
with
French information as it is with German, but here it goes
Geoffrey I Grisegonelle, Count of Anjou died (in battle I presume) 21
July
987.
He married (1) Adele de Donzy
He married (2) March 979 Adelaide de Vergy, widow of 1 Robert Comte de
Meaux
et de Troyes, widow of 2 Lambert Comte de Chalon-sur-Saone, daughter of
Giselbert Duke of Burgundy (Buvines)

This merges the two into one again. Where do we go from here?

I think ES is following Mabille and others who were confused on this
point -
Count Robert of Meaux & Troyes died after 19 June 966, and his widow is
not
known to have remarried. In any event she could not have been the same as
Adelais the wife of Count Lambert of Chalon if this lady was mother of
both
his recorded children, as certainly appears to be the case. His daughter
Mathildis was definitely married by 978, and probably some years before
then
as her son Count Thibaud of Chalon was perhaps born ca 970.

Peter Stewart



norenxaq

Re: The ancestry of Adelais, wife of Robert de Vermandois an

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 jan 2005 03:11:01

Leo van de Pas wrote:

Many thanks for this. I have split the one lady into two.
Leo

how positively painful... :>

and for your next trick... :>

Svar

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