Todd:
Take a look at:
http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0437301501/mas/Ri ... rigens.htm
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Ribadouro (for Todd)
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Ribadouro (for Todd), II
Some care must be taken here. For instance, he adds
the tradicional ancestor of the Távora family, Rosendo
(Rodesindo) Hermiges, while there isn't even
documentary proof of his existence.
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
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the tradicional ancestor of the Távora family, Rosendo
(Rodesindo) Hermiges, while there isn't even
documentary proof of his existence.
--- Francisco Antonio Doria
<franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Todd:
Take a look at:
http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0437301501/mas/Ri ... rigens.htm
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search.
Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Ribadouro (for Todd), II
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
It is also shows the problematic maternity of Bermudo II. As a
reminder to everyone, this is an open issue. Traditionally,
Bermudo was given as son of Ordoño III by his known wife, Urraca
Fernandez of Castile. This opinion was overturned by the
discovery of a document of Vermudo in which he makes a donation
in memory of his 'grandfather' (or more distant male ancestor),
Count Gonzalo Betotez. As Betotez appears in neither the
ancestry of Ordoño nor Urraca, it was concluded, Vermudo must be
son of Ordoño, not by Urraca but rather some other woman
(necessarily not his wife). This conclusion satisfied two other
problems - first that Vermudo was passed over in favor of various
kinsmen before finally gaining the crown; and second, that
Vermudo's son Alfonso is refered to metaphorically as being of
impure blood.
A survey of the children of Betotez and their childred (who would
be of the appropriate generation) led to the conclusion that the
mistress of Ordoño was one of the unmarried daughters of Count
Pelayo Gonzalez, son of Gonzalo Betotez. This solution has been
broadly accepted, seemingly being the only explanation for the
relationship between Vermudo and Gonzalo Betotez, with either
Adosinda or Elvira Pelayez being chosen as the daughter in question.
The big elephant in the corner with this was the following:
-in-law relationships were not distinguished - an equally valid
alternative solution would make Vermudo grandson-in-law of
Gonzalo Betotez, and his first wife, Vermudo, was of unknown
parentage. Thus, perhaps it was premature to overturn Vermudo's
legitimacy. Taking a look at the 'supporting' information, the
likely explanation for Vermudo being passed over for the crown
was his youth. Further, you need not go back too far to see
brothers succeeding to the exclusion of sons, with the members of
the next generation then jockying to be king. Vermudo would have
been just 7 years old at his father's death, and thus a cousin or
uncle would have been the better candidate. As to Alfonso being
called a 'half-breed", the meaning of this has been argued, but
because of the vague and metaphorical nature of the reference,
there is no telling what was intended (perhaps nothing more than
calling him a "son of a bitch"). Thus these provide no actual
support for Vermudo's illegitimacy.
Garcia Alvarez, back in 1960, addressed the ancestry of
Velasquita and concluded that she was likely daughter of Ramiro
Menendez, son of Count Hermengildo Gonzalez and his wife,
Muniadomna Diaz. Were this the case, it would satisfy the
relational statement given by Vermudo, as Count Hermengildo
Gonzalez was son of none other than the same Count Gonzalo
Betotez. While this identification is not solid, it is
consistent with the bridal pool the Leon royals tended to draw
from, and even if it is not correct, it highlights this
possibility (Velasquita) as the route for the relationship in
question, and must at least make one question whether the
legitimacy of Vermudo should have been rejected with this big
caveat unaddressed.
There is no document that indicates Vermudo was illegitimate, and
there is no document that shows Ordoño had an extramarial
relationship. There is an alternative explanation for the
descent from Gonzalo Betotez. Thus, I see no basis for any
conclusion other than that he was son of Ordoño's known wife,
Urraca Fernandez.
taf
Some care must be taken here. For instance, he adds
the tradicional ancestor of the Távora family, Rosendo
(Rodesindo) Hermiges, while there isn't even
documentary proof of his existence.
It is also shows the problematic maternity of Bermudo II. As a
reminder to everyone, this is an open issue. Traditionally,
Bermudo was given as son of Ordoño III by his known wife, Urraca
Fernandez of Castile. This opinion was overturned by the
discovery of a document of Vermudo in which he makes a donation
in memory of his 'grandfather' (or more distant male ancestor),
Count Gonzalo Betotez. As Betotez appears in neither the
ancestry of Ordoño nor Urraca, it was concluded, Vermudo must be
son of Ordoño, not by Urraca but rather some other woman
(necessarily not his wife). This conclusion satisfied two other
problems - first that Vermudo was passed over in favor of various
kinsmen before finally gaining the crown; and second, that
Vermudo's son Alfonso is refered to metaphorically as being of
impure blood.
A survey of the children of Betotez and their childred (who would
be of the appropriate generation) led to the conclusion that the
mistress of Ordoño was one of the unmarried daughters of Count
Pelayo Gonzalez, son of Gonzalo Betotez. This solution has been
broadly accepted, seemingly being the only explanation for the
relationship between Vermudo and Gonzalo Betotez, with either
Adosinda or Elvira Pelayez being chosen as the daughter in question.
The big elephant in the corner with this was the following:
-in-law relationships were not distinguished - an equally valid
alternative solution would make Vermudo grandson-in-law of
Gonzalo Betotez, and his first wife, Vermudo, was of unknown
parentage. Thus, perhaps it was premature to overturn Vermudo's
legitimacy. Taking a look at the 'supporting' information, the
likely explanation for Vermudo being passed over for the crown
was his youth. Further, you need not go back too far to see
brothers succeeding to the exclusion of sons, with the members of
the next generation then jockying to be king. Vermudo would have
been just 7 years old at his father's death, and thus a cousin or
uncle would have been the better candidate. As to Alfonso being
called a 'half-breed", the meaning of this has been argued, but
because of the vague and metaphorical nature of the reference,
there is no telling what was intended (perhaps nothing more than
calling him a "son of a bitch"). Thus these provide no actual
support for Vermudo's illegitimacy.
Garcia Alvarez, back in 1960, addressed the ancestry of
Velasquita and concluded that she was likely daughter of Ramiro
Menendez, son of Count Hermengildo Gonzalez and his wife,
Muniadomna Diaz. Were this the case, it would satisfy the
relational statement given by Vermudo, as Count Hermengildo
Gonzalez was son of none other than the same Count Gonzalo
Betotez. While this identification is not solid, it is
consistent with the bridal pool the Leon royals tended to draw
from, and even if it is not correct, it highlights this
possibility (Velasquita) as the route for the relationship in
question, and must at least make one question whether the
legitimacy of Vermudo should have been rejected with this big
caveat unaddressed.
There is no document that indicates Vermudo was illegitimate, and
there is no document that shows Ordoño had an extramarial
relationship. There is an alternative explanation for the
descent from Gonzalo Betotez. Thus, I see no basis for any
conclusion other than that he was son of Ordoño's known wife,
Urraca Fernandez.
taf