Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

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Gjest

Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jan 2005 16:21:01

Friday, 21 January, 2005


Hello All,

In the prior thread concerning Lathom of Lathom, it was noted
that Sir Robert de Lathom (Sheriff of Lancashire, 1249-1255,
1264-1265) was ancestor of the late Queen Mother and others by his
wife Amicia de Alfreton. In the Commendations of Beauchief Abbey,
we find particular mention

' Of Robert Fitz-Ranulph, canon and founder of this place, who
gave us four churches, namely, Norton, Alfreton, Wymmdeswold,
and Edwalton, for whom a solemn service shall be said in the
convent, ...' [1]

Robert fitz Ranulf de Alfreton is best known (so to speak) for
his donations to Beauchief Abbey in expiation for his involvement in
the murder of Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1170 [2].

Following is a pedigree which shows the descent of Lathom of
Lathom, and Chaworth of Alfreton (later of Wiverton) from Robert
fitz Ranulf. The descents from these families lead to a myriad of
well-known descendants, both emigrants (Jane Lowe for one) and
non-emigrants (the late Queen Mother for example).

~ For those linking this information to Leo's database
(Genealogics.org), please note the Lathom connection will
likely appear later. The Chaworth link currently exists,
as indicated in the Chaworth portion of the pedigree below.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES (to post):

[1] Mrs. L Chaworth Musters, "Chaworth Family," Transactions of the
Thoroton Society, 7 (1903). Text provided by A. P. Nicholson,
Nottinghamshire History and Archaeology,
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/white1875/osberton.htm

[2] There is some ongoing dispute in this regard, as the four
murderers of St. Thomas (de Morville, FitzUrse & c.) are well
known, as Robert fitz Ranulf is not found among them. Most
likely, as with Sir Ranulf de Broc of Catteshall, Surrey and
Frobury, co. Hants., Robert fitz Ranulf was involved in the
conspiracy against Becket in some manner, the details of which
are no longer known.

_______________________________________________


1 Ranulf de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

identified as father of Robert fitz Ranulf de Alfreton
[Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]

Children: Robert fitz Ranulf


1.1 Robert fitz Ranulf de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

founder of Beauchief Abbey ca. 1172-1176, in expiation for his
involvement in the plot and murder of Thomas a Becket, archbishop
of Canterbury.
"Of Robert Fitz-Ranulph, canon and founder of this place, who
gave us four churches, namely, Norton, Alfreton, Wymmdeswold, and
Edwalton, for whom a solemn service shall be said in the convent,
and of Robert de Chaworth (Sept. 9)."[Commendations of Beauchief
Abbey[2]]

' Robertus filius Rannulfi, dominus de Alfretona, Nortona, et
Marnham, fuit unus de quatuor militibus, qui beatum Thomam,
Cantuariensem archiepiscopum martirisavit; et postea monasterium
de Bellocapite fundabat, in expiatione hujuscemodi facinoris,
tempore regis Henrici secundi.' [Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]
_______________________________

his grants confirmed by Edward II of England, 1316:
' Rex omnibus ad quos, &c., salutem. Donationem quam Robertus
filius Ranulphi fecit Deo et sanctae Mariae, et sancto Thomae
martyri, et fratribus in ordine Praemonstratensi professis, de
loco, qui dicitur Beauchef, cum pertinentiis, qui in Dorhesele
situs est, ad abbaciam construendam; et de ecclesiis de Norton,
Alferton, Wymandeswald, et Edwaldeston; et de molendinis de Norton,
cum omni multura[m] et operibus suis; et de sarto Hugonis, juxta
Meresbrok; et uno tofto in Leys; et uno tofto juxta domum Alani;
et de tota[m] decima[m] pannagii totius terrae suae; et de duabus
bovatis terrae in Wymundwald de dominio suo; et de uno tofto
continente tres acras terrae cum pertinentiis. Donationem etiam
et confirmationem, quas dictus Robertus fecit praefatis fratribus
de una[m] bovata[m] terrae in Wymundwald, quae fuit Alexandri, cum
tofto suo, et de una[m] bovata[m] terrae, quae fuit Lunechild
viduae, cum pertinentiis.
Donationem etiam, et confirmationem, quas idem Robertus fecit
eisdem fratribus, de loco qui dicitur Brokhirst, cum pertinentiis. '
Pat. 9 Edw. II. p. 1, m. 3., in Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 884-5, Num. IV
[Carta Regis Edwardi Secundi, Concessiones Donatorum recitans et
confirmans][1]
________________________________

' Sir Robert, son of Ranulf, ' made gift of the church of Osberton
to the canons of the church of St. Mary and St. Cuthbert of Wyrkesop
[confirmed by his descendant Thomas de Chaworth ca. 1260-1287]
- A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and
Estate Papers [DD/FJ/1/1 - DD/FJ/1/194], DD/FJ/1/24/8[3]

Children: William


1.1.1 William de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

' Istius Roberti filius fuit Willielmus, dominus et baro de
Alfreton, Norton, et Marnham, tempore regis Ricardi primi; qui
genuit Robertum de Alfreton, baronem de Alfreton,..' [Mon. Angl.
VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]
_______________________________

his grants to the Praemonstratensian abbey of Beauchief confirmed by
Edward II of England, 1316:
' Donationem etiam et confirmationem, quas Willielmus filius Roberti
fecit eisdem fratribus de molendino de Aston, cum omni multura[m].'
Pat. 9 Edw. II. p. 1, m. 3., in Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 884-5, Num.
IV [Carta Regis Edwardi Secundi, Concessiones Donatorum recitans et
confirmans][1]
________________________________

' William son of Ranulf', confirmed gift by his father of the church
of Osberton to the canons of the church of St. Mary and St. Cuthbert
of Wyrkesop [confirmed by his descendant Thomas de Chaworth ca.
1260-1287] - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/FJ/1/1 - DD/FJ/1/194], DD/FJ/1/24/8[3]

Children: Robert


1.1.1.1 Robert de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

' Robert Alfreton, of Norton, co. Derby ' [CP III:153, note (a), sub
_Chaurces or Chaworth_[4]]

the foundation record of Beauchief Abbey records his father William,
' qui genuit Robertum de Alfreton, baronem de Alfreton, qui per
Agnetem uxorem ejus habuit exitum Thomam filium et haeredem, baronem
de Alfreton; qui sine prole defunctus, reliquit haereditatem suam
tribus sororibus; videlicet, Aliciae, uxori Gulielmi de Cadurcis
militis, filii Gulielmi de Cadurcis (vulgo Chaworthe) Amiciae nuptae
Roberto filio Ricardi Lathom, domino de Lathom in comitate
Lancastriae, antecessori comitum Derbiae, et Leticiae, quae obiit
sine prole.' [Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]

_______________________________

his grants to the Praemonstratensian abbey of Beauchief confirmed by
Edward II of England, 1316:
' Donationem, concessionem, et confirmationem, quas Robertus filius
Willielmi de Alfertona fecit eisdem fratribus de illa[m] terra[m] cum
pertinentiis, quam Helias de Trouey de eo tenuit. Donationem etiam,
concessionem, et confirmationem, quas idem Robertus fecit canonicis
loci praedicti, de sexaginta acris terrae, per perticam viginti
quatuor pedum, in Alferton, cum bosco supercrescente. '
Pat. 9 Edw. II. p. 1, m. 3., in Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 884-5,
Num. IV [Carta Regis Edwardi Secundi, Concessiones Donatorum
recitans et confirmans][1]
____________________________

' Robert son of William ', confirmed the gift of the church of
Osberton to the canons of the church of St. Mary and St. Cuthbert
of Wyrkesop [confirmed by his grandson Thomas de Chaworth ca.
1260-1287] - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/FJ/1/1 - DD/FJ/1/194], DD/FJ/1/24/8[3]

' Robert, son of William of Alferton', disputed lands lying between
Happeleyheved and the wood of Osberton with Robin de Pykeburn,
formerly prior of Wyrkesop - quitclaimed to the canons of the
church of St. Mary and St. Cuthbert of Wyrkesop - A2A,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers [DD/FJ/1/1 - DD/FJ/1/194], DD/FJ/1/24/8[3]

Spouse: Agnes

Children: Alice
Amicia
Thomas (-<1252)
Letitia


1.1.1.1.1 Alice de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

coheir of her brother

' Alice, 1st da. of Robert Alfreton, of Norton, co. Derby, and coh.
of her br., Thomas A., of the same ' [CP III:153, note (a)[4]]

' Aliciae, uxori Gulielmi de Cadurcis militis, filii Gulielmi de
Cadurcis (vulgo Chaworthe) ', one of the sisters and coheirs of
Thomas de Alfreton [Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]

Spouse: William de Chaworth
Marr: bef 16 Jul 1252[5]

Children: Sir Thomas (-<1315)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Thomas de Chaworth
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 20 Oct 1315[4]

knt., of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 by writ directed 'Thome de
Chaworth', whereby held to have become Lord Chaworth (or Chaurces)[4]

cf. CP III:153[4]

Spouse: Joan
Marr: bef 1 Nov 1301[4]

Children: William


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William de Chaworth
----------------------------------------

cf. CP III:153[4]

Children: Sir Thomas (->1347)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Thomas de Chaworth
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 Nov 1347[4]

of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

party to a grant dated 8 July 1336:
1) Peter de Notyngham.
2) Sir Thomas de Chaworth of Alfirton.
(1) to (2) all lands and tenements which he had of the gift
of Lady Matilda de Kyrkobride, wife of Sir Laurence de Chaworth, in
the township and territory of Hosberton. To hold of the chief lords
of the fee. Warranty clause.
Witn.: Sir Adam de Hoviringham [recte: Everingham] of Laxton,
Sir Adam his son, Sir Thomas de Lungvilers, William Bras of Bled',
Hugo de le Clay of the same.
At Hosberton, Monday after Trans. St. Thomas (8 July) 10 Ed. III.
(1336).' [Endorsement. Seal: round; shield with device within barbed
circular border; white wax. ] - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives:
Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers
[DD/FJ/1/1 - DD/FJ/1/194], DD/FJ/1/24/15[3]

' His will (Latin), dat. Affirton [Alfreton], 6 Nov 1347, directs his
burial to be with his grandfather, Lord Thomas, in the Abbey of
Beauchief, co. Derby, and makes his s. and h. Thomas executor, but
mentions no wife.' [CP III:153[4]]

Spouse: Alice

Children: Sir Thomas (-ca1371)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Thomas de Chaworth
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1371[4]

knt., of Alfreton and Norton, co. Derbys.

cf. CP III:153[4]

Spouse: Jane Luttrell


Children: Sir Thomas (-<1374)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Thomas de Chaworth
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1374, d.v.p.[4]

heir of his father

Genealogics I00232248[6]

cf. CP III:153-4[4]

Spouse: Margaret

Children: William (<1352-<1398)


1.1.1.1.2 Amicia de Alfreton
----------------------------------------

coheir of her brother[7]

' Amiciae nuptae Roberto filio Ricardi Lathom, domino de Lathom
in comitate Lancastriae, antecessori comitum Derbiae,..' one of the
sisters and coheirs of Thomas de Alfreton [Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883,
Num. I[1]]

Spouse: Sir Robert de Lathom, of Lathom, co. Lancs.
Father: Richard de Lathom
Marr: bef 16 Jul 1252[5]

Children: Sir Robert de Lathom, of Lathom(-<1328)
Richard (->1320)
Henry


1.1.1.1.3 Thomas de Alfreton
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 16 Jul 1252, d.s.p.[4]

of Alfreton, co. Derbys.

his sister Alice de Alfreton described as ' coh. of her br., Thomas
A., of the same ' [CP III:153, note (a)[4]]

' Thomam filium et haeredem, baronem de Alfreton; qui sine
prole defunctus, reliquit haereditatem suam tribus sororibus; ..'
[Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883, Num. I[1]]

he d.s.p. before 26 Sept 1300, on which date his brother in law
Thomas de Chaworth sealed the Baron's letter to the Pope as
'Thomas de Chaurces, Dominus de Norton' [CP III:153[4]]


1.1.1.1.4 Letitia de Alfreton
----------------------------------------
Death: d.s.p.[1]

' Leticiae, quae obiit sine prole.' [Mon. Angl. VI(2), p. 883,
Num. I[1]]





1. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin
Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et
Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co.
Lincs., pp. 951-954.
2. Mrs. L Chaworth Musters, "Chaworth Family," Transactions of the
Thoroton Society, 7 (1903), text provided by A. P. Nicholson,
Nottinghamshire History and Archaeology, URL
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/
3. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
4. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
5. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
6. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas, http://www.genealogics.org
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources.
7. "Worksop, the Dukery, and Sherwood Forest," Robert White, 1875,
text provided by A. P. Nicholson, Nottinghamshire History and
Archaeology, URL
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/white1875/osberton.htm
chapter: Hamlets in the parish of Worksop: Osberton, Who Settled
in the American Colonies from the Time of the Settlement of
Jamestown, 13th May, 1607, to the Battle of Lexington, 19th April
1775.


* John P. Ravilious

Sutliff

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Sutliff » 22 jan 2005 21:00:10

I am sorry I do not have time to verify this, but VCH Lancs III:249 cites
the first wife of Sir Robert Lathom as Joan de Alfreton, daughter of Robert
and Agnes and sister of Thomas and Alice wife of Thomas Chaworth. Also check
Thoroton I:198.

According to my notes, VCH Lancs cites that Joan de Alfreton is believed to
have died without issue as her estates reverted to her family and that the
Lathom children of which there several, were all thought to have descended
from Lathom's second marriage to Joan, daughter of Adam de Millom of Millom.

HS

<Therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:29.6b17fe2d.2f227616@aol.com...
Friday, 21 January, 2005


Hello All,

In the prior thread concerning Lathom of Lathom, it was noted
that Sir Robert de Lathom (Sheriff of Lancashire, 1249-1255,
1264-1265) was ancestor of the late Queen Mother and others by his
wife Amicia de Alfreton. In the Commendations of Beauchief Abbey,
we find particular mention

snip

Gjest

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 jan 2005 02:21:02

Saturday, 22 January, 2005


Dear Hap,

Many thanks for your reply and input.

I have been advised off-list that the VCH citation you've given
(also used in Ronny Bodine's The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz) needs
review concerning the issue of later Lathom descent, or lack thereof,
from the Alfreton family.

It is interesting that the VCH source you indicate calls the
Alfreton coheir 'Joan', whereas the inspeximus of 1316 calls her
Amicia. I understand there were two marriages, the 2nd to one Joan
de Millom. One indicator to the contrary may be the grant in 1252 of
charters for a market and fair at Alfreton, as follows:


" M (Charter) Mon; gr 16 Jul 1252, by K Hen III to Robert de Lathun
and Thomas de Chaworthe and their heirs (CChR, 1226-57,
p. 400). In 1330, Thomas de Chauworth, grandson of Thomas de
Chaworthe the grantee, was holding the market, which had been
held since the grant of the charter (QW, p. 134).

F (Charter) vfm, Margaret (20 Jul); gr 16 Jul 1252, by K Hen III
to Robert de Lathun and Thomas de Chaworthe and their heirs
(CChR, 1226-57, p. 400). In 1330, Thomas de Chauworth, grandson
of Thomas de Chaworthe the grantee, was holding the fair on
vf Margaret. The fair had been held since the grant of the
charter (QW, p. 134). "

:Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516, Derbyshire:
http://www.history.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/derbys.html


There are reasons why the bulk of the Alfreton lands (in
Derbyshire) evidently wound up in the hands of the Chaworth family;
I'm not sure we have sufficient evidence to evaluate whether this
evidences the failure of the heirs (if any) of Amicia de Alfreton.
Certainly, the above citations from 1252 would indicate that Robert
de Lathom and Thomas de Chaworth were heirs to Alfreton, and that
they were most likely the issue of Amicia and Alice de Alfreton,
respectively.

~ I am also uncertain, given the known (later) career of Sir
Robert de Lathom (fl. 1300-1310), whether or not there may
be an intervening generation between him and Amicia de
Alfreton; the explanation could be, in part, that Amicia
de Alfreton had a son Robert de Lathom, who married Joan
de Millom, and had issue the subject Sir Robert de Lathom
(husband of Katherine de Knowsley).

Should anyone have direct access to the VCH and Thoroton
publications you've mentioned, perhaps those texts can be searched
and cited on the list; if I can find the VCH at the Library of
Congress (a possibility this next week) I will advise.

Many thanks for your input, Hap!

Cheers,

John







--------------------------

I am sorry I do not have time to verify this, but VCH Lancs III:249 cites
the first wife of Sir Robert Lathom as Joan de Alfreton, daughter of Robert
and Agnes and sister of Thomas and Alice wife of Thomas Chaworth. Also check
Thoroton I:198.


According to my notes, VCH Lancs cites that Joan de Alfreton is believed to
have died without issue as her estates reverted to her family and that the
Lathom children of which there several, were all thought to have descended
from Lathom's second marriage to Joan, daughter of Adam de Millom of Millom.


HS

swarren2

Philpott or Posey

Legg inn av swarren2 » 23 jan 2005 03:21:01

Anyone on this list done research on the Philpott family or the Posey
family?

Philpotts were from Kent. Looking for the family of Henry, Mayor of
Folkestone, died 1603.

Don't know where the Posey family was from.

Thanks,
Shirley



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Betty Owen

Re: Philpott or Posey

Legg inn av Betty Owen » 23 jan 2005 05:21:02

Yes,
I am decendent from the Posey family.
It comes from French Hugnot ....

Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: "swarren2" <swarren2@prodigy.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Philpott or Posey


Anyone on this list done research on the Philpott family or the Posey
family?

Philpotts were from Kent. Looking for the family of Henry, Mayor of
Folkestone, died 1603.

Don't know where the Posey family was from.

Thanks,
Shirley



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Doug McDonald

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 jan 2005 15:39:19

Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Saturday, 22 January, 2005


Dear Hap,

Many thanks for your reply and input.

I have been advised off-list that the VCH citation you've given
(also used in Ronny Bodine's The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz) needs
review concerning the issue of later Lathom descent, or lack thereof,
from the Alfreton family.


I assume VCH Lancs means Lancaster? Our library has it, I can check it
later today.



I am interested in this line, as my ancestor Frances Latham,
wife of William Dungan and Jeremy Clarke, is purported to descend
from it. I find the line less than totally convincing. Does anyone
know about the validity of it?

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 jan 2005 16:01:55

Sunday, 23 January, 2005


Dear Doug,

Right you are, Lancs. is just the standard (old style) abbreviation
for Lancashire (i.e. the County of Lancaster).

The Library of Congress has a very spotty collection of the VCH, so
I was not sure of the odds of finding the pages (or volume) in
question. If you can check those two pages Hap cited, that would be
marvelous. Obviously, the sources cited in the VCH account are as
valuable as the text - I wager further examination may be needed to
resolve these particular generations of the Lathom pedigree.

I'm not familiar with the Latham line you cite - with luck, someone
else of the list has spent some time on that particular line. I will
of course advise of anything I should find.

Many thanks,

John



Doug McDonald wrote:
Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Saturday, 22 January, 2005


Dear Hap,

Many thanks for your reply and input.

I have been advised off-list that the VCH citation you've
given
(also used in Ronny Bodine's The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz)
needs
review concerning the issue of later Lathom descent, or lack
thereof,
from the Alfreton family.


I assume VCH Lancs means Lancaster? Our library has it, I can check
it
later today.



I am interested in this line, as my ancestor Frances Latham,
wife of William Dungan and Jeremy Clarke, is purported to descend
from it. I find the line less than totally convincing. Does anyone
know about the validity of it?

Doug McDonald

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 jan 2005 16:16:17

In message of 23 Jan, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:


I assume VCH Lancs means Lancaster?

Not quite. The 's' at the end is short for Shire so it is Lancashire.
Lancaster is the town, not the shire.

Similarly Yorks, though that has the three Ridings, N, W and E.

But not similarly Durhams as that is not the name of 'County Durham'
which is the only English county with the name 'County' in it. Some
other counties never get 'shire' at the end: Middlesex, Cornwall,
Sussex, Kent to name but a few.

There is no logic to this, just custom and practice.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 jan 2005 16:18:50

In message of 23 Jan, therav3@aol.com wrote:

Right you are, Lancs. is just the standard (old style) abbreviation
for Lancashire (i.e. the County of Lancaster).

Not sure where 'old style' comes from. These abbreviations of county
names with 's' at the end are very much the modern style.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Doug McDonald

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 jan 2005 17:03:16

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 23 Jan, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:



I assume VCH Lancs means Lancaster?


Not quite. The 's' at the end is short for Shire so it is Lancashire.
Lancaster is the town, not the shire.



The library catalog says " The Victoria history of the county of
Lancaster; ed. by William Farrer and J. Brownbill." in 8 vols.

Our library is not Salt Lake City, but it is the largest
public university library, third largest university library (after
Harvard and Yale) and 6th overall (New York counts twice in top 5).
Its English genealogy-useful collection is not bad at all. It's
Scottish one is not quite as good, but not bad.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 jan 2005 17:23:23

Sunday, 23 January, 2005


Dear Doug,

The 8 vol. work you cite is the one we're looking for.

The Lathom references are evidently in Vol. III, pp. 249-250
(and possibly on a prior or subsequent page, depending on the account
of the particular manor).

Abbreviations are always interesting in and of themselves. Once
upon a time (say before 1975-1980) before the U.S. Post Office was able
to dictate terms of surrender, the state abbreviations in the U.S. were
a little more pleasant (Penna. for Pennsylvania, Mass. for
Massachusetts, etc.) than the "modern" [i.e. computer-friendly] PA, MA,
etc. Yorks., Lancs., etc. work fine for me.

Good luck, and good hunting - and, thanks again!
Cheers,

John

Doug McDonald

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 23 jan 2005 21:49:28

Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Should anyone have direct access to the VCH and Thoroton
publications you've mentioned, perhaps those texts can be searched
and cited on the list;

Here is the relevant part.

He was succeeded by his brother Robert, a man of
note in the affairs of the county. He confirmed the
charter of Burscough and added the land of Adam de
Birkes, which his brother Richard had bequeathed
with his body, as well as two other plats." By his
marriage with Joan,'5 sister and coheir of Thomas
son of Robert de Alfreton, he became possessed of a
moiety of her father's estates in Alfreton, Norton, and
Marnham, held of the honour of Tickhill.16 She prob-
ably died without issue, as these manors did not
remain with the Lathom family. Robert was made a
knight in 1243 in consequence of the king's writ to
enforce knighthood on all who had an estate of fifteen
librates of land.17 In 1249 the county and castle of
Lancaster were committed to Sir Robert, during the
king's pleasure.18 By this appointment he held the
office of sheriff from Easter, 1249, to Michaelmas,
1254 ; he held it again from Easter, 1264, to Michael-
mas, 1265."' His second wife was Joan, daughter of
Adam de Millom,20 by whom he had several children.
From 1277 until his death about 1290, he was engaged
in the wars.1

14 Burscough Reg. fol. 3, 3b. One of
these had been held by Stephen son of
Richard de Alton; the bounds began
at the ford of Hurleton, ascending the
watercourse to Pilatecroft, around this to
the watercourse, following this to the
church road from Alton ; by this road
to Blacklache, by this to Fulshaw, and
following Fulshaw to Hurleton Ford,
saving the exit of Richard de Riding
from the great lache by Pilatecroft unto
the little lache which extends to the
ford of Richard. The second grant was
of all the land of Richard de Riding, for
the fabric (o/Jeri) of the priory church.
He also gave half a plough-land in Child-
wall to the monks of Stanlaw ; Whalley
Coucher (Chet. Soc.), ii, 551.
l5 Otherwise Amicia , on. Angl.
vi, 8.
16 By writ of n Feb. 1242, he had
seisin of these estates, having done
homage and given security for the pay-
ment of his relief—7 10s., the usual
render for a knight's fee and a half.
Later (27 May) he proffered 100 and
15 marks (in lieu of three palfreys) for
wardship of the other moiety, belonging
to Thomas de Chaworth, son of his
wife's sister Alice, and it was granted to
him , Fine R. 26 Hen. III, pt. i, m. 9 ;
and pt. ii, m. 6. In the Chart. R.
of 36 Hen. III is the grant of a
market at Alfreton to Robert de Lathom
and Thomas de Chaworth ; Robert
afterwards released to Thomas all his
right in the lordship. By the inquest
taken about Christmas, 1242, to inquire

as to the knights' fees which should
contribute to the scutage of Gascony, it
was found that in Notts. Robert de
Lathom held two-thirds of a knight's
fee in Alfreton and Norton of Alice,
countess of Eu, and half a knight's fee
of the earl of Leicester in Edwalton of
ancient feoffment, while in Lanes, he
held one fee in Knowsley, Huyton,
and Roby of the earl of Lincoln, and
other fees in Childwall, Parbold, and
Wrightington, of the baron of Manchester;
Lanes. Inq. and Extents, i, 148, 154.
V Close R. 56, m. 4 d.
18 Fine R. 33 Hen. III, p t. i, m. 7.
The grant was repeated in 1254; Origi-
nalia R. i, p. 13.
" P.R.O. List of Sheriffs, 72. It is
possible that he was sheriff continuously
from 1249 to 1255, those whose names
appear in the list of sheriffs being his
deputies. In Sept. 1266, the king ex-
cused his coming to give account at the
Exchequer for the period during which
he had been sheriff, on the ground that
..he was then, by the king's order, stay-
ing in Lanes, with horses and arms to
keep watch over the king's peace there ;
Close R. 87, m. I.
20 Chartul. of Beauchief Abbey. In
1260 Robert de Lathom and Joan his
wife had a dispute with the abbot of
Furness concerning the advowson of
Millom ; Cur. Reg. R. 166, m. 21 d. and
169, m. 22. Connected with this mar-
riage is the subject of the two coats
borne by Robert de Lathom. In a roll
of arms (Harl. MS. 6589) of this period
he is said to have borne ' gules, fretty
vair' ; but about 1250 he sealed a charter
of manumission of Roger son of Gun-
hilda, and this seal bears the coat subse-
quently used by the family—'or, on a
chief indented azure, three plates.' The
former coat may have been that of his
second wife's family. The grant just
mentioned included also a grant of land
in Lathom, the boundaries beginning at
Gerald's Well, William, prior of Bur-
scough, was a witness. Another charter
of about the same date gave to Robert son
of' Ughtred de Lathom land on the
western side of Scakersdale, the bounds
beginning at Bradeyate Ford, touching the
road from Lathom to Ormskirk as far as
Brechehale Syke, crossing to Deepdale
and going down to Marcheal Ford ; there
were reservations as to the use of this
ford, as also of mastfall in his park and
in Burscough. The charters are from
Towneley MSS. GG. 1278, RR 1060,
RR. 891 and GG. 1334. For a manu-
mission by fine in 1246 see Final Conc.
(Rec. Soc.), i, 88.
1 Palgrave, Parl Writs i, 698. In
1277 he was summoned to serve against
Llewelyn prince of Wales, and again in
1282 , five years later he had to appear
with horse and arms at a military council
at Gloucester before Edmund earl of Corn-
wall, and in 1291 he or his son Robert
was called to serve against the Scots.
One of his latest acts at Lathom was
an agreement in 1287 with the canons
of Burscough, relating to certain lands
there and the mill, and other points in
dispute. The prior and canons surrendered
their mills to him, with the right to
construct others also, provided that any
new one should not be set up on Scaker-
dale Brook nor on the Burscough side
of Alton, and that they might have the
right to construct mills within their own
lands ; in return he gave them 4.0 acres
of land by the king's highway from
Burscough to Wirplesmoss. Burscough
Reg. fol. 16b


Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 jan 2005 19:03:48

Monday, 24 January, 2005


Dear Doug,

Thanks for your sleuthing, and relaying the VCH text above.

I have used this in part, and (due to the correction showing Joan
de Millom, not Amicia de Alfreton, as the mother of Sir Robert de
Lathom) have shown the results in a new thread:

< Lathom and Huddleston: descents from Godard de Boiville >

Mille grazie!

John



Doug McDonald wrote:
Therav3@aol.com wrote:


Should anyone have direct access to the VCH and Thoroton
publications you've mentioned, perhaps those texts can be searched
and cited on the list;

Here is the relevant part.

He was succeeded by his brother Robert, a man of
note in the affairs of the county. He confirmed the
charter of Burscough and added the land of Adam de
Birkes, which his brother Richard had bequeathed
with his body, as well as two other plats." By his
marriage with Joan,'5 sister and coheir of Thomas
son of Robert de Alfreton, he became possessed of a
moiety of her father's estates in Alfreton, Norton, and
Marnham, held of the honour of Tickhill.16 She prob-
ably died without issue, as these manors did not
remain with the Lathom family. Robert was made a
knight in 1243 in consequence of the king's writ to
enforce knighthood on all who had an estate of fifteen
librates of land.17
SNIP for bandwidth's sake

Chris Dickinson

Re: Lathom and Chaworth: descents from Robert de Alfreton

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 24 jan 2005 20:10:01

Doug McDonald wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 23 Jan, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:



I assume VCH Lancs means Lancaster?


Not quite. The 's' at the end is short for Shire so it is Lancashire.
Lancaster is the town, not the shire.



The library catalog says " The Victoria history of the county of
Lancaster; ed. by William Farrer and J. Brownbill." in 8 vols.



I'm sure that Tim is too polite to continue with this.

In English usage, 'Lancaster' and the 'county of Lancaster' aren't the same.
If you say 'Lancaster' people will assume you mean the town. Standard usage
would use 'Lancashire' or 'Lancs' for the 'county of Lancaster'. It's like
the difference between NYC and NYS.

Chris

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