Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her da

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Douglas Richardson royala

Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her da

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 20 jan 2005 09:01:57

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage sub Dacre states Joan Dacre (died 1486), suo jure
Baroness Dacre (wife of Sir Richard Fiennes), was "the daughter and
heiress of Sir Thomas Dacre, by Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Sir
William Bowet, of Horsford, Burgh St. Margaret's, and Great Hautbois,
by Joan, daughter and heiress of Sir Robert Ufford, of Horsford, etc."
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 8]. Slight documentation is
presented for these connections, one item being a De Banco Roll, 12
Henry IV, m. 293.

Most printed sources concur that Joan Dacre's maternal grandmother was
named Joan Ufford, wife of Sir William Bowet. Besides the De Banco
Roll item mentioned by Complete Peerage, Dugdale quotes a pedigree of
the Ufford family in which Joan Dacre's grandmother is specifically
named as Joan Ufford:

"... Et dictus Robertus Ufford maritatus fuit Elionoræ filæ Thomæ
Felton militis, qui genuit Elam, Sibillam, et Joannam filias,... et
prædicta Johanna nupta Willielmo Bowes armigero,... qui genuit ex ea
filiam, nuptam domino Dacres, et genuit ex filiam nomine Johannam quæ
nupta fuit Ricardo Fines militi, camerario domini regis Edwardi
quarti" [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 3 (1826):
636-637 (Horsham Priory Founders Genealogy)].

Waters' Chester of Chicheley 1 (1878): 339-340 likewise claims that
Sir William Bowet's wife's name was Joan Ufford. He states they
jointly presented to Beanacre Rectory in 1409 and 1418, and to
Blythburgh Rectory in 1418 and 1420. He further states that following
Sir William Bowet's death in 1421, his widow Joan married (2nd) in or
before 1422 Sir Henry Inglose, of Loddon, Norfolk. Waters states Joan
Ufford had "an only child" by her 1st marriage to Bowet, namely Ela
Bowett, who married Thomas Dacre, Knt. As we shall see below, several
of these statements are in error.

Copinger's Manors of Suffolk likewise concurs that Sir William Bowet's
wife was Joan Ufford, daughter of Sir Robert Ufford. He states that
Joan and her husband presented to the Benacre living together in 1409
and that William presented alone in 1418 [Reference: W.A. Copinger,
Manors of Suffolk, 2 (1908): 5-6]. So everyone seems to agree that Sir
William Bowet's wife's name was Joan Ufford. We reportedly have the
testimony of at least three records, a De Banco roll, a pedigree of the
Ufford family from Horsham Priory, and Joan's presentation to Benacre
rectory in 1409. Usually this would be more than adequate evidence to
vouch for a woman's given name.

However, my research indicates that she was not named Joan at all.
Rather, I find that her name is given in several contemporary records
as Amy or Anne.

I show that in 1428, Henry Inglose, knight, was holding the manor of
Burgh St. Margaret, Norfolk in right of his wife, Amie ("tenet de jure
Amie, uxoris sue") [Reference: Feudal Aids, 3 (1904): 569]. Burgh St.
Margaret was a long time Calvering-Ufford family estate and fell by
inheritance to Henry Inglose's wife. In 1428 the manor of Horsford was
similarly held by a certain "Anne Bowet," this also being a long time
Clavering-Ufford estate [Reference: Feudal Aids, 3 (1904): 599]. The
woman involved in both of these records is the woman called Joan Ufford
in the sources cited above who married (1st) Sir William Bowet and
(2nd) Sir Henry Inglose.

Elsewhere, I find that Henry Inglose, Knt. and Anne his wife were
grantors in a conveyance by fine dated 17th Henry VI (i.e., 1438-39).
The grantees in this fine were Anne's daughter and son-in-law, Thomas
Dacre, junior, Knight, and Elizabeth his wife [Reference: Rye, Short
Cal. of Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 417]. The properties
involved are the manors of Horsford, Burgh St. Margaret, and Great
Hautbois, Norfolk, two of which properties are mentioned earlier above.
Henry Inglose, Knt. and his wife, Anne, are similar named in another
fine dated 17th and 18th Henry VI (i.e., 1438-40) [Reference: Rye,
Short Cal. of Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 418].

That Amy or Anne, wife of Henry Inglose, Knt., is the former wife of
Sir William Bowet is conclusively proven by the following two Chancery
records found in the helpful online National Archives catalogue
(http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp):

Chancery Proceedings, C 1/19/40: Robert Osbern and Sibil, his wife,
daughter of Sir William Bowet, knt., deceased v. Edmund Wichingham,
Robert Inglose, and sir John Parram, priest, executors of sir Henry
Inglose, knt., husband of Dame Amy Bowet, deceased, mother of the said
Sibyl.: Money arising from the sale of said Sibil's wardship and
marriage and the half of the manors of Blackhall, Botcherby
(Botchardby) and Stainton, Cumberland by the said sir William to lord
Dacres. Date: 1386-1486.

Chancery Proceedings, C 1/21/44: Robert Osbern, esq., of Barking. v.
Dame Elizabeth Daker, and Henry Inglose, and John Colvyle, knts., and
other feoffees.: Profits of the manor of Great (Mykel) Hautbois, the
dower of petitioner's wife Sibyl, sister of the said Dame Elizabeth.:
Norfolk. Date: 1386-1486.

We find that in the first suit above that Sir Henry Inglose's wife is
clearly called Dame Amy Bowet, widow of Sir William Bowet, and that
Dame Amy is styled "mother" of a hitherto unknown daughter by her Bowet
marriage, namely Sibyl, wife of Robert Osbern. In the second suit
above, Robert Osbern's wife, Sibyl, is specifically called "sister" of
Lady Elizabeth Dacre. Three Cumberland manors are mentioned in the
first suit, they presumably being the original lands of Sir William
Bowet himself, and not part of the Clavering-Ufford inheritance in
Norfolk and Suffolk.

That Sir William Bowet's wife was named Amy is further proven by yet
another document found in the National Archives catalogue:

PRO Document, C 146/230 - grant dated 20 Jan. 1422/3 by Amy, late the
wife of William Bowet, knight, to Geoffrey Haldeyn, vicar of Dilham,
and John Haldeyn, of Becklys, of land with a cottage thereon in Dilham,
Norfolk. Witnesses:- John Geney, knight, and others (named).

So, we find Sir William Bowet's wife and widow repeatedly called Amy,
Amie, or Anne in these records, and never Joan. With respect to the
correct form of her name, I believe that Amy is the more accurate form
of this woman's name, as indicated by the first Chancery Proceedings
cited above and by her own deed. For reasons not known to me, I
occasionally find Amy interchangeable in records with Anne.

In this vein, I might mention I've elsewhere found a short biography of
Sir William Bowet in the book, Inventory of Church Goods temp. Edward
III, transcribed by Dom. Aelred Watkin (Norfolk Record Soc. Vol. 19 Pt.
2) (1948): 189. In this work, Watkin correctly refers to Sir William
Bowet's wife as Amy, but he then mistakenly identifies her as the
daughter of Sir Thomas Felton, which person was actually this lady's
maternal grandfather. So, we have one step forward, one step back.

I've found no further records yet regarding Amy Ufford's 2nd daughter,
Sibyl Bowet, wife of Robert Osbern, Esq., of Barking. If anyone has
further particulars of the Osbern family, I'd appreciate hearing from
them here on the newsgroup. Further information on the history of the
Bowet, Ufford, and Clavering families can be found in my forthcoming
book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for publication in June 2005.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the name of the one colonial
American immigrant who descend from Amy Ufford, wife of Sir William
Bowet and Sir Henry Inglose:

1. Thomas Lunsford.

I presume Amy Ufford is likewise found in the ancestry of H.R.H.
Charles, Prince of Wales, and his former wife, Diana.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 20 jan 2005 12:06:37

Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<
So, we find Sir William Bowet's wife and widow repeatedly called Amy,
Amie, or Anne in these records, and never Joan. With respect to the
correct form of her name, I believe that Amy is the more accurate form
of this woman's name, as indicated by the first Chancery Proceedings
cited above and by her own deed. For reasons not known to me, I
occasionally find Amy interchangeable in records with Anne.

I think this happens purely because of the difficulty of distinguishing the
two names in some medieval hands, when written in Latin as "Amia" and
"Anna". Amy, being the less common name, is often mistaken for Anne.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 21 jan 2005 21:22:13

Dear Chris ~

I've surmised the same thing.

DR

I think this happens purely because of the difficulty of
distinguishing the two names in some medieval hands, when
written in Latin as "Amia" and "Anna". Amy, being the less
common name, is often mistaken for Anne.

Chris Phillips

Ian Fettes

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 21 jan 2005 23:41:02

Hi All,

As a follow up on the posting by Douglas Richardson, for those interested in
the Ufford descent to Prince William, my records indicate that he descends
twice only through Prince Charles and nine times through Lady Diana from
this lady. Not one of his more numerically significant ancestors.

Ian Fettes

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 jan 2005 00:01:01

How many unique descents do Prince William and Prince Harry have from
William The Conqueror, Ian?

And how many from Charlemagne, Harold II, Henry II, James I and Queen
Victoria?

Cheers,

Spencer Hines

""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:02d301c5000a$1e13bc50$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...

| Hi All,
|
| As a follow up on the posting by Douglas Richardson, for those
interested in
| the Ufford descent to Prince William, my records indicate that he
descends
| twice only through Prince Charles and nine times through Lady Diana
from
| this lady. Not one of his more numerically significant ancestors.
|
| Ian Fettes

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 22 jan 2005 02:02:23

Dean Ian ~

Thanks for posting the information regarding Charles and Diana's
descents from Amy Ufford. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Ian Fettes

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 22 jan 2005 03:01:01

Hi All,

Currently I show descents:

1,452,771,810 from Charlemagne
2,290,414 from William the Conqueror
2,076,919 from Harold II
831,018 from Henry II
274 from James I of Scotland
27 from James I of England
2 from Victoria

Ian Fettes

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


How many unique descents do Prince William and Prince Harry have from
William The Conqueror, Ian?

And how many from Charlemagne, Harold II, Henry II, James I and Queen
Victoria?

Cheers,

Spencer Hines

""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:02d301c5000a$1e13bc50$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...

| Hi All,
|
| As a follow up on the posting by Douglas Richardson, for those
interested in
| the Ufford descent to Prince William, my records indicate that he
descends
| twice only through Prince Charles and nine times through Lady Diana
from
| this lady. Not one of his more numerically significant ancestors.
|
| Ian Fettes

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 jan 2005 05:14:16

Thank you kindly, Ian.

DSH

""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
news:036301c50026$186c38b0$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...

| Hi All,
|
| Currently I show descents:
|
| 1,452,771,810 from Charlemagne
| 2,290,414 from William the Conqueror
| 2,076,919 from Harold II
| 831,018 from Henry II
| 274 from James I of Scotland
| 27 from James I of England
| 2 from Victoria
|
| Ian Fettes
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:09 AM
| Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
| daughter, Sibyl Osbern
|
| > How many unique descents do Prince William and Prince Harry have
from
| > William The Conqueror, Ian?
| >
| > And how many from Charlemagne, Harold II, Henry II, James I and
Queen
| > Victoria?
| >
| > Cheers,
| >
| > Spencer Hines
| >
| > ""Ian Fettes"" <fettesi@st.net.au> wrote in message
| > news:02d301c5000a$1e13bc50$18d9f0dc@iandl3mr2dhbht...
| >
| > | Hi All,
| > |
| > | As a follow up on the posting by Douglas Richardson, for those
| > interested in
| > | the Ufford descent to Prince William, my records indicate that he
| > descends
| > | twice only through Prince Charles and nine times through Lady
Diana
| > from
| > | this lady. Not one of his more numerically significant ancestors.
| > |
| > | Ian Fettes

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 jan 2005 09:51:01

How many descents do Prince William and Prince Harry have from George I,
Ian?

Thank you.

DSH

Ian Fettes

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and he

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 23 jan 2005 00:01:01

Hi Spencer,

I show that the princes have 17 lines of descent from George I.

Ian Fettes

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


How many descents do Prince William and Prince Harry have from George I,
Ian?

Thank you.

DSH

______________________________

Gjest

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 jan 2005 00:51:18

I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines. Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm

Leo van de Pas

William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 jan 2005 01:21:01

When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know most about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of 15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I could ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I found that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince William, in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 - 2466 - 2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines. Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm



John Higgins

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 jan 2005 01:41:02

According to the data that I have, Prince William has 22 descents from
George I of England - all of them via his father Prince Charles. This is
one more than the figure stated by Arnold McNaughton in 1973 in his "The
Book of Kings", which was at the time the most comprehensive documentation
of the descendants of George I. I don't know why I have one more line than
McNaughton (and I don't propose to try to find out - although I suspect I'm
right), but interested parties may want to check this out using Paul
Theroff's files on the web.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know most
about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of 15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I could
ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I found that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince William, in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 - 2466 -
2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines. Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm




Leo van de Pas

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 jan 2005 01:51:02

Can you supply the numbers in the ancestor list? I like to see which ones I
am missing out on.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


According to the data that I have, Prince William has 22 descents from
George I of England - all of them via his father Prince Charles. This is
one more than the figure stated by Arnold McNaughton in 1973 in his "The
Book of Kings", which was at the time the most comprehensive documentation
of the descendants of George I. I don't know why I have one more line
than
McNaughton (and I don't propose to try to find out - although I suspect
I'm
right), but interested parties may want to check this out using Paul
Theroff's files on the web.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your
head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know most
about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of 15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I could
ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I found
that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince William, in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 - 2466 -
2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I
at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines. Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm






John Higgins

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 jan 2005 03:01:08

Leo and Ian are correct - there are 17 descents from George I to Prince
Charles and thus to Prince William. I inadvertently was counting Charles'
Stuart descents, not his Hanover descents, and thus included several from
the sister of George I.

I show 22 Stuart descents (i.e., from James VI and I). Leo can probably
check this very quickly, but I believe A. C. Addington's 'The Royal House of
Stuart" said there were 21....so I may still need to figure out why I have
one more....

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


According to the data that I have, Prince William has 22 descents from
George I of England - all of them via his father Prince Charles. This is
one more than the figure stated by Arnold McNaughton in 1973 in his "The
Book of Kings", which was at the time the most comprehensive documentation
of the descendants of George I. I don't know why I have one more line
than
McNaughton (and I don't propose to try to find out - although I suspect
I'm
right), but interested parties may want to check this out using Paul
Theroff's files on the web.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your
head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know most
about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of 15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I could
ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I found
that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince William, in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 - 2466 -
2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I
at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines. Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm





Leo van de Pas

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 jan 2005 03:11:02

Between Prince William and James VI-I going back 19 generations I have 27
lines of descend for Prince William from James VI-I
I stopped at 19 generation and I doubt there are more.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


Leo and Ian are correct - there are 17 descents from George I to Prince
Charles and thus to Prince William. I inadvertently was counting Charles'
Stuart descents, not his Hanover descents, and thus included several from
the sister of George I.

I show 22 Stuart descents (i.e., from James VI and I). Leo can probably
check this very quickly, but I believe A. C. Addington's 'The Royal House
of
Stuart" said there were 21....so I may still need to figure out why I have
one more....

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


According to the data that I have, Prince William has 22 descents from
George I of England - all of them via his father Prince Charles. This
is
one more than the figure stated by Arnold McNaughton in 1973 in his "The
Book of Kings", which was at the time the most comprehensive
documentation
of the descendants of George I. I don't know why I have one more line
than
McNaughton (and I don't propose to try to find out - although I suspect
I'm
right), but interested parties may want to check this out using Paul
Theroff's files on the web.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your
head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know most
about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of 15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I
could
ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I found
that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince William,
in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 - 2466 -
2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen
Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife, Louis
of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece, whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George I
at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines.
Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm







John Higgins

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 jan 2005 03:21:02

Ian and I have compared data on the Stuart descents of Prince William (i.e.,
from James VI and I) and we agree that there are 27 descents: 5 through
Diana, 9 through Elizabeth, and 13 through Philip. This means that Charles
has 22 Stuart descents, as I mentioned in my note.

I agree with you that the descendants of James VI and I are so well
documented that we are unlikely to find additional descents here for Prince
William. There is, however, room for expansion of the other descent numbers
earlier given by Ian (for James I of Scotland et al.) as more information is
collected on the ancestry of Prince William.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


Between Prince William and James VI-I going back 19 generations I have 27
lines of descend for Prince William from James VI-I
I stopped at 19 generation and I doubt there are more.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


Leo and Ian are correct - there are 17 descents from George I to Prince
Charles and thus to Prince William. I inadvertently was counting
Charles'
Stuart descents, not his Hanover descents, and thus included several
from
the sister of George I.

I show 22 Stuart descents (i.e., from James VI and I). Leo can probably
check this very quickly, but I believe A. C. Addington's 'The Royal
House
of
Stuart" said there were 21....so I may still need to figure out why I
have
one more....

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


According to the data that I have, Prince William has 22 descents from
George I of England - all of them via his father Prince Charles. This
is
one more than the figure stated by Arnold McNaughton in 1973 in his
"The
Book of Kings", which was at the time the most comprehensive
documentation
of the descendants of George I. I don't know why I have one more line
than
McNaughton (and I don't propose to try to find out - although I
suspect
I'm
right), but interested parties may want to check this out using Paul
Theroff's files on the web.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C.P.
Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her daughter, Sibyl Osbern


When you deal with specifics you shouldn't guess on the top of your
head.
Ian Fettes and John Higgins are probably the two people who know
most
about
the ancestors of Prince William.
I called up in my own system and ancestor list of Prince William of
15
generations.
Then I looked for George I for the first time (nr.1044) and then I
could
ask
in my system whether that number was repeated (1052=1044) and I
found
that
George I does appear 17 times in the ancestor list of Prince
William,
in
fact the numbers are :
1044 - 1052 - 1060 - 1376 - 1396 - 2206 - 2210 - 2286 - 2300 -
2466 -
2528 -
2592 - 2644 - 2652 - 2660 - 2702 - 2716

Hope this clarifies?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mhollick@mac.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and
her
daughter, Sibyl Osbern


I think that's a low number. The princes descend twice from Queen
Victoria and have an additional line to George III through Queen
Mary.
They descend twice from Christian IX of Denmark and his wife,
Louis
of
Hesse-Cassel, both descendants of George I, twice over (a total of
eight descents there). They descend from George I of Greece,
whose
wife, Olga, was a Russian Grand Duchess. She descends from George
I
at
least once through the Prussian royal family. And there's a
another
Prussian descent. So, off the top of my head there's 13 lines.
Then
there's the lines from the House of Nassau. I remember reading
that
were over 20 lines from George I. How far back and complete do
you
have the princes' ancestry?

All the George I descents are from Charles, so see:
http://genroy.free.fr/asccharles.htm








D. Spencer Hines

Re: William of Wales lines to George I was Re: Yet another C

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 jan 2005 04:01:01

Good!

John Higgins admits he made an error and was counting STUART descents to
Prince William NOT just descents from GEORGE I to Prince William.

The mark for STUART descents is now 27.

Do we hear more?

DSH

""John Higgins"" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:007f01c500ed$913fe4e0$3a32a040@labs.agilent.com...

|...I inadvertently was counting Charles' Stuart descents, not his
| Hanover descents, and thus included several from the sister of George
I....
|
| I show 22 Stuart descents (i.e., from James VI and I)....

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Yet another C.P. Correction: Amy not Joan Ufford and her

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 24 jan 2005 03:39:17

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

I've surmised the same thing.

I think this happens purely because of the difficulty of
distinguishing the two names in some medieval hands, when
written in Latin as "Amia" and "Anna". Amy, being the less
common name, is often mistaken for Anne.


This was likewise discussed in the first of the Amy de Gaveston
papers, which many here have read.

taf

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