Sassanid Emperors of Persia

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Matthew Rockefeller

Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 14 jan 2005 22:10:17

I just posted this lineage of Yezdegerd III to soc-genealogy-ancient,
which is a new group on the new google message board system. It runs on
the same system as the newsgroups, but can only be accessed via google.
I'm trying to get it going, so I thought I'd post there as well. It's
the first message for the new group.

As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be answered.


Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 - 140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105

Vologases V, King of Parthia [191 - 208] and Armenia [180 - 191] (d
208), a claimant as early as 162
married
a daughter of Pharasmenes III, King of Iberia a son of Adam, King of
Iberia and Zenobia, Co-Regent of Iberia a daughter of Zenobius, King of
Palmyra

Artabanus V, King of Parthia [216 - 224] and Media [208 - 216] (d 224),
Jews considered him a great ally

Ziyanak, Princess of Parthia
married
Ardashir I, Emperor of Persia [224 - 241], King of Persis [220 - 224],
conquered Parthia (Persia) and made Zoroastian the state religion of
Persia, son of Papak, King of Persis [211 - ca 215], Defender of the
(Zoroastrian) Faith, of Achaemenid descent

Shahpur I, Emperor of Persia [241 - 272], King of Armenia [252 - 272]
(d 272)
married
Gurdzag, daughter of Mitrok, Lord of Zarham a son of Anoshepat

Narses, Emperor of Persia [293 - 303], King of East Armenia [272 - 293]
(d 303), his brother Meribanes became the King of Iberia

Hormizd II, Emperor of Persia [303 - 309] (d 309)
married
Ifra, daughter of Vasudeva, King of Kabul

Shahpur II, Emperor of Persia [309 - 379] (309 - 379), was king before
he was born
married
Zarak

Shahpur III, Emperor of Persia [383 - 388] (d 388)

Yezdegerd I "the Sinner", Emperor of Persia [399 - 421], King of
Armenia [418 - 421] (d 421)
married
Shushandukht, daughter of Nathan II, Exilarch

Bahram V "the Hunter", Emperor of Persia [421 - 438] (d 438)
married
Sapinud, daughter of Kumara Gupta I, Emperor of India

Yezdegerd II, Emperor of Persia [438 - 457] (d 457)
married
Dinak

Peroz, Emperor of Persia [459 - 484], Governor of Seistan (d 484)
married
Mihrandokht, daughter of Akhshunwar, King of the Hephthalites

Kobad I, Emperor of Persia [484 - 496, 498 - 531] (449 - September 13,
531)
married
Newandokht, daughter of Mihirakula, King of the Hephthalites

Chosroes I "the Immortal and the Just", Emperor of Persia [531 - 579]
(d 579)
married
Kayen, daughter of Mokan, King of the Turks a son of Bumin, King of the
Turks and Chang Lo a daughter of Xi-Wei Wen-Ti, Emperor of China and a
daughter of Anahuai, King of Juan-Juan

Hormizd IV "of the Turks", Emperor of Persia [579 - 590] (d 590)
married
a daughter of Khurad, King of the Hephthalites

Chosroes II, Emperor of Persia [590 - 628] (d February 29, 628)
married
Sirin, daughter of Shibir, King of the Turks a son of Tulan, King of
the Turks and Yang Ling a daughter of Sui Wen-Di, Emperor of China,
founder of the Sui dynasty

Prince Shahriyar (d 628)
married
probably a daughter of Gao-Zu, Emperor of China, founder of the Tang
dynasty

Yezdegerd III, Emperor of Persia [06/16/632 - 641] (616 - 651), after
many battles he was overthrown by the Arabs and eventually fled to
China
married
Mananyh, daughter of Constantine III, Emperor of Byzantium and Gregoria
a daughter of Niketas, patrician a son of Shahrbaraz, King of Persia
and Purandokht, Queen of Persia a daughter of Chosroes II, Emperor of
Persia by his second wife Maria a daughter of Maurice, Emperor of
Byzantium

Descendants of Yezdegerd III:

1 Peroz (ca 645 - ca 700), claimant in 667, escaped to China where he
became a general and the Emperor protected and defended him
Children:
A1 Narses, a Chinese general, had issue
A2 a daughter
married
Al-Walid II, Caliph of Islam [743 - 744]
Children:
B1 Yazid III, Caliph of Islam [744], his descent from the
Persian, Roman, and Turkish royalty was bragged upon
B2 Ibrahim, Caliph of Islam [744]

2 Bahram (ca 646 - died young)

3 Shahrbanu (ca 642 - uncertain)
married
Abu Abdullah Hussain bin Ali, 3rd Imam of Islam [661 - 680] (626 -
680), Hussain also had five other children by four other wives
Children:
A1 Abu Muhammad Ali Zayn al-Abidin bin Hussain, 4th Imam of Islam
[680 - 713] (658 - 713)

4 Azdadwar (ca 643 - uncertain), she was given as a young girl to the
Exilarch as a wife by the Caliph after the downfall of the Persian
kingdom
married
Bostanai, Exilarch [642 - 665] (590 - 665)
Children:
A1 Shahriyar Surkhab, King of Tabaristan (ca 660 - 717)
married
daughter and heiress of Baw, King of Tabaristan a son of Prince
Shahpur a son of Kais, King of Tabaristan a son of Kobad, Emperor of
Persia
Children:
B1 Mihr Mardan, King of Tabaristan [717 - 755] (ca 690 - 755)
B2 Yomtov Ruzbihan
A2 Mardanshah
A3 Gilanshah

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jan 2005 22:31:01

"As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be answered.
Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 - 140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105"

How about this intelligent comment.
Provide sources.
Or maybe you should post to gen-fantasy-L

Will

Don Stone

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Don Stone » 14 jan 2005 23:04:34

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
I just posted this lineage of Yezdegerd III to soc-genealogy-ancient,
which is a new group on the new google message board system. It runs on
the same system as the newsgroups, but can only be accessed via google.
I'm trying to get it going, so I thought I'd post there as well. It's
the first message for the new group.

As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be answered.


Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 - 140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105

Vologases V, King of Parthia [191 - 208] and Armenia [180 - 191] (d
208), a claimant as early as 162
married
a daughter of Pharasmenes III, King of Iberia a son of Adam, King of
Iberia and Zenobia, Co-Regent of Iberia a daughter of Zenobius, King of
Palmyra

Toumanoff (in _Les dynasties de la Caucasie chrétienne_, etc.) says that
Vologaeses's wife was a daughter of Pharasmanes III of Iberia, based on
Iberian sources (itemized in his 1969 _Traditio_ paper "Chronology of the
Early Kings of Iberia") which say that Rev I, King of Iberia, was the son of
a king of Armenia and of a sister of Amazaspus II (son of Pharasmanes III)
and based on Toumanoff's assumption that the Armenian king was Vologaeses
II. Settipani (_Nos ancêtres de l'Antiquité_, p. 73) makes the case the Rev
is more likely for onomastic reasons to be son of Pacorus of Armenia than of
Vologaeses.

Artabanus V, King of Parthia [216 - 224] and Media [208 - 216] (d 224),
Jews considered him a great ally

Ziyanak, Princess of Parthia
married
Ardashir I, Emperor of Persia [224 - 241], King of Persis [220 - 224],
conquered Parthia (Persia) and made Zoroastian the state religion of
Persia, son of Papak, King of Persis [211 - ca 215], Defender of the
(Zoroastrian) Faith, of Achaemenid descent

There seems to be a chronological problem here. Discussing a list of
possible links to antiquity, Chris Bennett said the following in an SGM post
dated May 6, 1998:

The second has problems and is regarded as a later fiction by
many: Ardashir I is said to have married Adhur-Anahit, daughter of
Artabanus V, king of Parthia, who become the mother of Shapur I -- who,
however, succeeded as an adult 14 years later. [Another daughter of
Artabanus was engaged to Caracalla, who used the occasion of the marriage
feast to attack the Parthian king. It is not clear whether the marriage had
actually taken place, but it obviously wasn't entered into in good faith!]


-- Don Stone

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 14 jan 2005 23:20:43

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
"As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be
answered.
Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 -
140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105"

How about this intelligent comment.
Provide sources.
Or maybe you should post to gen-fantasy-L

Will

*I warn posters besides Will that reading the rest of this message is a
waste of their time.

I'm sure you knew quite well that I did not want you to respond with
your usual "trash talk". If this were a just world you would be fined
or worse for libel. My ancestors reigned unquestioned on thrones and
I've been reduced to arguing about common sense with a buffon. I'm
aware you get an unnatural thrill out of this, but seriously it just
gets in the way of us real researchers doing our job. I'm also aware
that it's implied that you've never read a book. I'm going beyond
suggesting in your case, and demanding that you know about a topic
before you respond to it.

And now, mostly for my own amusement, we're going to play Goofus and
Gallant. Here are examples of intelligent and unintelligent
questions/comments:

Goofus - This is all a worthless lineage!

Gallant - Are you sure about that connection?

&

Goofus - Where in the world did you come up this crap?

Gallant - Do you happen to recall your source for that marriage?

Will, the key to intelligent questions, besides be polite, is asking
deep questions. Is any of this sinking in finally? I swear George W
Bush or Anna Nicole Smith would have gotten it by now. Sigh!

Matthew

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 14 jan 2005 23:57:15

Thanks for the intelligent comments Don. I find your postings
refreshing. I was thinking of leaving off the Parthian lineage, but
added it at the last second. I was aware of both the comments you made
mention of. I think there was an Iberian connection, because the later
Meribanes, son of Shahpur I, became the King of Iberia. While I respect
Chris Bennett's work, especially on the Ptolemies, I think he is off
here on the Parthian connection. I will read into it a little further,
but I do not see a problem with it. I think the lineage is secure to
Vologases V at least, and Settipani believes he is to be identified
with son of Vologases III if I'm not mistaken. He then of course
conjectures further back, on the little historical information we do
have, to a probable Darius who died ca 10 BC.

The lineage was actually compiled to be part of my House of David web
site, which I'll finish eventually, with the connection to Bostanai.
I've compiled a couple other ancestor lists for Azdadwar, which I might
post later.

Another interesting tidbit to the lineage that some readers may not
know is that the Qaraklu clan of the Afshar tribe are descended from
the rulers of Tabaristan and thus Afshar dynasty of Persia were
descendants of Bostanai and Azdadwar, while the Safawid dynasty of
Persia were descended from her sister, Shahrbanu, and Imam Husayn. So,
both dynasties had a descent from the Sassanids.

Matthew

Kelsey Williams

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 15 jan 2005 00:19:02

Hello,

This is a very fascinating pedigree but I do have several questions
about certain points within it:

1) On a general note, what are your sources for the wives of the
Persian Shahs? Particularly the more exotic ones such as Shushandukht,
Sapinud, Kayen, etc.

2) What are your sources for the "kings of the Turks" and their
relatives?

3) the PLRE suggests that the Hephthalites (or Ephthalites, as it calls
them) were Huns of some sort. Your thoughts?

4) Chosroes II married (1) Shirin, "of Aramaic origin" and born in
Khuzistan, still living in 627 (PLRE, IIIB: 1144) and (2) Maria, said
to be dau. of the Emperor Maurice (PLRE, IIIB: 827-828). What is your
source suggesting that Shirin was, instead, of Turkish origin?

5) Do you have any suggestions for a modern descent stemming from this
line?

I find your work very fascinating but I am, understandably, I think,
very curious to know what sources you have used, as my knowledge of the
historiography of this area and this period are somewhat sketchy.
Thanks!

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams


Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
I just posted this lineage of Yezdegerd III to soc-genealogy-ancient,
which is a new group on the new google message board system. It runs
on
the same system as the newsgroups, but can only be accessed via
google.
I'm trying to get it going, so I thought I'd post there as well. It's
the first message for the new group.

As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be
answered.


<snip>

Chris Bennett

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 15 jan 2005 01:54:38

"Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105737017.364682.219950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I just posted this lineage of Yezdegerd III to soc-genealogy-ancient,
which is a new group on the new google message board system. It runs on
the same system as the newsgroups, but can only be accessed via google.
I'm trying to get it going, so I thought I'd post there as well. It's
the first message for the new group.

As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be answered.


Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 - 140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105

Vologases V, King of Parthia [191 - 208] and Armenia [180 - 191] (d
208), a claimant as early as 162
married
a daughter of Pharasmenes III, King of Iberia a son of Adam, King of
Iberia and Zenobia, Co-Regent of Iberia a daughter of Zenobius, King of
Palmyra
snip


Matthew --

I have a couple of questions and comments about these first two generations
of this genealogy, which I hope will meet your IQ threshold:

1) It's not clear whether you have accidently omitted Vologeses IV or
whether you are seriously proposing that Vologeses V is the son of Vologeses
III. If this is what you mean, what is your evidence for making a man who
died in 208 the son of a man who was evidently born c. 90 or earlier?

If you really meant to insert Vologeses IV between them, you may be
interested to know that an inscription was published in the 1980s that
explicitly names Vologeses IV as the son of Mithridates III, not Vologeses
III. You can find details on Chris Hopkins' Parthia.com website.

2) Likewise, what is your evidence for "Zenobius king of Palmyra"? None of
the Palmyrene studies I have read know of any such man. There is a
governor, J. Aurelius Zenobius, but he was in the mid third century AD, and
he wasn't a king.


I could go on, but I hope you get the point. If you are going to post a
genealogy that is full of remarkable claims, claims that are unknown to or
contradict expert opinion in the field, you need to be able to back them up,
otherwise no-one is going to take them seriously. That means citing and
discussing sources, ideally primary ones or expert studies of the same.
That, unfortunately, is a very basic point that your colleague David Hughes
does not seem to understand.

I am glad you respect my work on the Ptolemies. I invite you to consider my
methodology. If you have looked at the notes at my site, you will see that
I have tried to specify sources for every statement, and to provide the
arguments and counter-arguments on controversial items. Where possible, I
have provided hyperlinks to primary sources (usually in translation) and, in
some cases, to cited papers. Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project took a
similar approach. The whole point is to provide readers of the genealogy
with access to the evidence, so that they can make up their own mind, and so
that they have a solid basis for further discussion.

Chris Bennett

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jan 2005 23:21:02

In a message dated 1/15/2005 1:53:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cjbennett@sbcglobal.net writes:

If you really meant to insert Vologeses IV between them, you may be
interested to know that an inscription was published in the 1980s that
explicitly names Vologeses IV as the son of Mithridates III, not Vologeses
III. You can find details on Chris Hopkins' Parthia.com website.

Now that is interesting. I was just reading over what Encyclopaedia
Brittanica (1985 edition) had on the Vologases (Vologasii?). The dates given by
Matthew don't correspond with that work. Here are the dates and relationships as
specified in EB

Vologases I d 77/8 King of Parthia 51-77/8 son of Vonones II by a Greek
concubine.
He had two known brothers, Pacorus K of Media Atropatene and Tiridates K?
of Armenia. His son was Vardanes II a usurper.

Vologases II d 147?, a rival claimant to the throne of Pacorus II K of
Parthia. Vologases appears to have ruled Parthia (or PART of Parthia) from 105/6 to
128/9 when he defeated a rival Mithradates IV to secure the greater part of
Parthia which he ruled until his death.

Vologases III d 192, K of Parthia 148-192. He was succeeded by his son
Vologases IV.

Vologases IV fl 2nd and 3rd century, King of Parthia 191-208/9. Rebel
against his father Vologases III in 191, succeeded him in 192. Succeded he his son
Vologases V.

So the relationship from III to V is specified in EB. The relationships from
I to III are not specified. However Chris has now informed us that IV was
not the son of III. I wonder if V was the son of IV or rather styled something
like "grandson" of III and the son of IV part was assumed ?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jan 2005 23:31:01

In a message dated 1/15/2005 2:31:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

Another daughter of
Artabanus was engaged to Caracalla, who used the occasion of the marriage
feast to attack the Parthian king. It is not clear whether the marriage had
actually taken place, but it obviously wasn't entered into in good faith!]

I checked the "Lives of the Later Caesars: The first part of the Augustan
History", translated by Anthony Birley, 1976 and in the section devoted to the
life of Caracalla I don't find any mention of this marriage. Also EB doesn't
mention it.
Will

Chris Bennett

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 15 jan 2005 23:53:14

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:80.1f327155.2f1aef21@aol.com...
In a message dated 1/15/2005 1:53:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
snip

Vologases III d 192, K of Parthia 148-192. He was succeeded by his son
Vologases IV.

Vologases IV fl 2nd and 3rd century, King of Parthia 191-208/9. Rebel
against his father Vologases III in 191, succeeded him in 192. Succeded
he his son
Vologases V.

So the relationship from III to V is specified in EB. The relationships
from
I to III are not specified. However Chris has now informed us that IV was
not the son of III. I wonder if V was the son of IV or rather styled
something
like "grandson" of III and the son of IV part was assumed ?
Will Johnson


Will--

You have to be very wary about ordinal numbering for dynasties like the
Arsacids, which are poorly known. Different scholars use different
numbering conventions and they aren't always clear about what convention
they are using. In this case, for instance, the king Matthew called
Vologeses V is the one that EB calls Vologeses IV. The king I called
Vologeses IV, using Matt's convention (intending to avoid confusion on ths
very point), is the one that EB calls Vologeses III.

For information about all things Parthian I thoroughly recommend Chris
Hopkin's website http://www.parthia.com. Also the Yahoo Groups email group
Parthia-L, whose archives are full of useful information (as well as
illustrations that SGM is not the only group to suffer pointless flamewars.)

Chris

Chris Bennett

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 16 jan 2005 00:15:15

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:d1.2040b3d3.2f1af13e@aol.com...
In a message dated 1/15/2005 2:31:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

Another daughter of
Artabanus was engaged to Caracalla, who used the occasion of the
marriage
feast to attack the Parthian king. It is not clear whether the marriage
had
actually taken place, but it obviously wasn't entered into in good
faith!]

I checked the "Lives of the Later Caesars: The first part of the Augustan
History", translated by Anthony Birley, 1976 and in the section devoted to
the
life of Caracalla I don't find any mention of this marriage. Also EB
doesn't
mention it.
Will

One source is Dio Cassius 79.1, see
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... .html#78-1
The other source is Herodian, who I don't think is online anywhere.
Herodian is the authority for the account of an attack at the marriage
feast.

Chris

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jan 2005 00:21:03

In a message dated 1/15/2005 3:07:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cjbennett@sbcglobal.net writes:

For information about all things Parthian I thoroughly recommend Chris
Hopkin's website http://www.parthia.com. Also the Yahoo Groups email group
Parthia-L, whose archives are full of useful information (as well as
illustrations that SGM is not the only group to suffer pointless flamewars.)

Thanks Chris. I was just checking out Chris Hopkins site. He has great
information on the numismatics and he has a genealogy tree (graphic). But he
doesn't really go into the details as to WHY a certain person is the son of a
certain person i.e. the proof texts. He does however refer to the sources for the
tree, so I suppose a person could just go find those, if they are readily
available.
Will

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jan 2005 00:21:04

In a message dated 1/15/2005 3:07:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cjbennett@sbcglobal.net writes:

You have to be very wary about ordinal numbering for dynasties like the
Arsacids, which are poorly known. Different scholars use different
numbering conventions and they aren't always clear about what convention
they are using.

I see the problem is that Chris Hopkins' has an extra one called Vologases II
77-80 which EB skips, thus pushing all references up by one. Also EB states
that Vardenes II the usurper was the son of Vologases I 51-78 which Chris
omits, presumably because there is better evidence that he was NOT.
It would be interesting to see a discussion of the pro and con on that.
Will

Arkadiusz Bugaj

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Arkadiusz Bugaj » 19 jan 2005 00:15:43

Uzytkownik "Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> napisal w
wiadomosci news:1105741243.850513.314350@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
"As usual, only intelligent comments and/or questions will be
answered.
Vologases III, King of Parthia [108, 130 - 147] and Armenia [117 -
140]
(d 147), a claimant as early as 105"

How about this intelligent comment.
Provide sources.
Or maybe you should post to gen-fantasy-L

Will

*I warn posters besides Will that reading the rest of this message is a
waste of their time.

I'm sure you knew quite well that I did not want you to respond with
your usual "trash talk". If this were a just world you would be fined
or worse for libel. My ancestors reigned unquestioned on thrones

Can you prove it. As long as you can't you are a bufoon who just has nerve
to boast.
BTW, I have never heard about any ruler called Rockefeller. May be except
rulers of an oil empire. Standard Oil was their realm? Are you descendant of
those guys?
Arkadiusz

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 19 jan 2005 06:20:17

Hi Kelsey, good questions.

This should answer some questions of the others as well.

As usual I have used a variety of sources for my genealogy. For the
most part the wives come from Mommaerts, the more exotic ones that is.
There is also, I have discovered, an old tale about Sapinud who Bahram
married while a prince in India, as well as an Indian tradition that
one of their sons returned to India and founded a dynasty there.
Shushandukht is mentioned again also by Bryant-Abraham in his De Domo
David articles as well as the Jewish Encyclopedia. Her father was
recorded as being an exilarch, but the exact exilarch I believe is
speculated based on dates, which is probably pretty firm.

The Turkish kings, their wives, and connections come from David Hughes
who compiled his article from Mommaerts and also Formhal's Royal Race
of Deuman.

I've seen the Hephthalites called the White Huns, but I haven't
researched them well yet, so I cannot give an educated opinion.

I believe Sirin's placement comes from Mommaerts again. From the
further research I've done on Sirin she was a Christian and the
mother of Chosroes II's sons Shahriyar, Mardanshah, and Gilanshah.
You'll note that these names are also the names of Bostanai's three
sons by Azdadwar, the granddaughter of Shahriyar. Sirin tried to place
Mardanshah, her Christian son, on the throne, but needless to say that
didn't go to far at all. Chosroes II had 26 sons and approx. 40
daughters by a number of different women, but the sons were all
executed by Kobad II, the usurping son of Chosroes II, and Yezdegerd
III, a grandson, was eventually found in a fire temple, the only male
heir to the great empire.

As far as modern descents go. There are indeed many descendants of
Yezdegerd III around, including myself and even Queen Elizabeth. The
Aga Khan, if I'm not mistaken, is a direct male-line descendant of
the 4th Imam. As far as male-line descendants of the Sassanids go,
I'm not sure that any exist. The descendants of Azdadwar were
actually considered to be heirs to empire. And I don't say that to
brag on my own ancestors, but the rulers of Tabaristan adopted the
Zoroastrian faith and were called the descendants of Yezdegerd, the son
of Shahriyar by the 10th century poet Ferdowsi.

A side note, I'm making a correction in my genealogy. I don't think
Shahriyar is to be identified with Surkhab, King of Tabaristan. I've
found that David Hughes is correct in naming him his son. I've found
the date 657 for the marriage between Bostanai and Azdadwar, and the
date would seem correct anyway based on the information we do have, but
I can't confirm it. I'd then place Shahriyar's birth at late 657
or early 658 and I believe he must have been young when he fathered
Surkhab in ca 675. Then Surkhab's son was Mihr Mardan, apparently
carrying on the family name of Mardan/Mardanshah.

So the genealogy runs:

4 Azdadwar (ca 643 - uncertain), she was given as a young girl to the
Exilarch as a wife by the Caliph after the downfall of the Persian
kingdom
married
Bostanai, Exilarch [642 - 665] (590 - 665)
Children:
A1 Shahriyar (ca 658 - uncertain)
Children:
B1 Surkhab, King of Tabaristan (ca 660 - 717)
married
daughter and heiress of Baw, King of Tabaristan a son of Prince
Shahpur a son of Kais, King of Tabaristan a son of Kobad, Emperor of
Persia
Children:
C1 Mihr Mardan, King of Tabaristan [717 - 755] (ca 690 - 755)

B2 Yomtov Ruzbihan "Ahunai"
Children:
C1 Zakkai Yehuda, Exilarch
C2 Babawai Moses, Exilarch, from whom the Dabwaihide dynasty of
Mazandaran kings
C3 Judith who married Nehemiah ben Haninai ben Bostanai
A2 Mardanshah
A3 Gilanshah

Matthew

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 19 jan 2005 06:39:37

A couple hundred years ago nobody ever heard of a ruler called Windsor
either. They of course adopted the surname. My father was the son of a
Persian prince who in Paris married a woman named Rockefeller, who in
fact was a descendant of Standard Oil "Emperor" (sigh) John D.
Rockefeller. Persians weren't using surnames at the time and one was
needed. Being a descendant of three Persian dynasties in recent
history, the Safawids, Afshars, and Qajars, not to mention Charles II
on my mother's side, and the exilarchs, I think it's fair to state that
I'm descended from those who reigned on thrones.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jan 2005 06:40:02

In a message dated 1/18/2005 9:24:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com writes:

A side note, I'm making a correction in my genealogy. I don't think
Shahriyar is to be identified with Surkhab, King of Tabaristan. I've
found that David Hughes is correct in naming him his son. I've found
the date 657 for the marriage between Bostanai and Azdadwar, and the
date would seem correct anyway based on the information we do have, but
I can't confirm it.

David Hughes is correct based on what? What extra source are you using to
confirm David Hughes account? If you could actually quote what the source
actually says instead of just saying you're "using" it, it would be helpful.
Otherwise, just naming a source in some vague way is like name-dropping, only
useful to convince people you're have some connection that you don't really
have.
Will Johnson

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 19 jan 2005 06:49:08

It was my understanding that Settipani had proposed that Vologases V is
to be identified with a Vologases who was a claimant in 162 was the son
of Vologases III, perhaps I'm wrong in that.

Your very own website says "Although the near ancestry of Zenobia
herself is not certainly known, she is probably closely related to J.
Aurelius Zenobius, governor of Palmyra in 229 AD, whose paternal
ancestry is traceable for 6 generations, and includes a Sampsigeramus,
which is the name of the founder of the Emesan dynasty, and a C. Julius
Bassus, priest of Baal, whose name recalls that of Julius Bassianus,
high priest of Baal at Emesa and ancestor of the Severan emperors
Caracalla, Alexander Severus and Elagabalus."

Surely you're aware that the father of Julius Bassus was Zenobius the
son of Malchus, King of Palmyra and Mamaea, an Emesan princess.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jan 2005 07:20:03

In a message dated 1/18/2005 9:54:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com writes:

Surely you're aware that the father of Julius Bassus was Zenobius the
son of Malchus, King of Palmyra and Mamaea, an Emesan princess.

In my copy of the Lives of the Later Caesars, this Bassianus is called
(Julius) Bassianus in a genealogical chart. I believe this means that the Julius
part is hypothecized based on onomastic data.
Will

Paul K Davis

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 19 jan 2005 07:51:02

There may be a confusion of possibly two Zenobia's.

What you state below relates to the famous Zenobia, who briefly ruled half
the Roman empire.

I have also seen reference on the web (but not yet in print) to a Zenobia
as wife of Rhadamist I, king of Iberia (in the Caucasus) and mother of
Parsman (or Pharasmenes) III, king of Iberia. She would have lived about a
generation before the famous Zenobia, if the web databases are right. If
she existed, she may well have had some relationship with the family of the
famous Zenobia.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Matthew Rockefeller <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 1/18/2005 9:54:04 PM
Subject: Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

It was my understanding that Settipani had proposed that Vologases V is
to be identified with a Vologases who was a claimant in 162 was the son
of Vologases III, perhaps I'm wrong in that.

Your very own website says "Although the near ancestry of Zenobia
herself is not certainly known, she is probably closely related to J.
Aurelius Zenobius, governor of Palmyra in 229 AD, whose paternal
ancestry is traceable for 6 generations, and includes a Sampsigeramus,
which is the name of the founder of the Emesan dynasty, and a C. Julius
Bassus, priest of Baal, whose name recalls that of Julius Bassianus,
high priest of Baal at Emesa and ancestor of the Severan emperors
Caracalla, Alexander Severus and Elagabalus."

Surely you're aware that the father of Julius Bassus was Zenobius the
son of Malchus, King of Palmyra and Mamaea, an Emesan princess.

Matthew

Henry Soszynski

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Henry Soszynski » 19 jan 2005 08:18:06

On 18 Jan 2005 21:20:17 -0800, "Matthew Rockefeller"
<matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Kelsey, good questions.

This should answer some questions of the others as well.

As usual I have used a variety of sources for my genealogy. For the
most part the wives come from Mommaerts, the more exotic ones that is.
There is also, I have discovered, an old tale about Sapinud who Bahram
married while a prince in India, as well as an Indian tradition that
one of their sons returned to India and founded a dynasty there.
I've heard of a theory by an Indian author, that the Sisodia dynasty

of Mewar, were originally Persians. I can't recall what evidence was
presented to suuport this, though onomastics was one theory, i.e.
sassanid = sisodia
It seems quite flimsy to me, though interesting.
Shushandukht is mentioned again also by Bryant-Abraham in his De Domo
David articles as well as the Jewish Encyclopedia. Her father was
recorded as being an exilarch, but the exact exilarch I believe is
speculated based on dates, which is probably pretty firm.


Matthew

Cheers,
Henry

Arkadiusz Bugaj

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Arkadiusz Bugaj » 19 jan 2005 10:32:03

Uzytkownik "Matthew Rockefeller" <matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com> napisal w
wiadomosci news:1106113177.060835.95400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
A couple hundred years ago nobody ever heard of a ruler called Windsor
either. They of course adopted the surname. My father was the son of a
Persian prince who in Paris married a woman named Rockefeller, who in
fact was a descendant of Standard Oil "Emperor" (sigh) John D.
Rockefeller. Persians weren't using surnames at the time and one was
needed. Being a descendant of three Persian dynasties in recent
history, the Safawids, Afshars, and Qajars, not to mention Charles II
on my mother's side, and the exilarchs, I think it's fair to state that
I'm descended from those who reigned on thrones.

Matthew
Was your father a relative of Pahlavi's dynasty? Was your mother a

descendant of Charles II Stuart?
If it is true you can boast of being a descendant of a royal family, of
course if you like to.
BTW, I wonder, is your royal descendancy the only claim to fame?

Arkadiusz

Chris Bennett

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 19 jan 2005 17:10:38

----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Rockefeller
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia


It was my understanding that Settipani had proposed that Vologases V is
to be identified with a Vologases who was a claimant in 162 was the son
of Vologases III, perhaps I'm wrong in that.

He does, but that wasn't my question.

What I asked you was "what is your EVIDENCE for making a man who
died in 208 the son of a man who was evidently born c. 90 or earlier?"

Settipani does no more than make a speculation, clearly labelled as such. I
have alot of respect for him, but even Homer nods. I think this one is very
doubtful, for precisely the reason I asked you about. A citation is no
excuse for suspending critical judgement.

So: Why do you think Settipani's speculation right?


Your very own website says "Although the near ancestry of Zenobia
herself is not certainly known, she is probably closely related to J.
Aurelius Zenobius, governor of Palmyra in 229 AD, whose paternal
ancestry is traceable for 6 generations, and includes a Sampsigeramus,
which is the name of the founder of the Emesan dynasty, and a C. Julius
Bassus, priest of Baal, whose name recalls that of Julius Bassianus,
high priest of Baal at Emesa and ancestor of the Severan emperors
Caracalla, Alexander Severus and Elagabalus."

Surely you're aware that the father of Julius Bassus was Zenobius the
son of Malchus, King of Palmyra and Mamaea, an Emesan princess.

Nope. I'm aware that the father of Julius Bassus Nassum was Zenobius the
son of Malchus son of Nasssum but that's as far as it goes.

To remind the reader, your claim was:

Vologases V, King of Parthia [191 - 208] and Armenia [180 - 191] (d
208), a claimant as early as 162
married
a daughter of Pharasmenes III, King of Iberia a son of Adam, King of
Iberia and Zenobia, Co-Regent of Iberia a daughter of Zenobius, King of
Palmyra

I'll grant you that this Zenobius is probably meant to be the son of
Malchus, not J. Aurelius Zenobius. But to my knowledge there was never any
"King of Palmyra" before Odaenathus. Nor have I seen a source for "Zenobia
Co-regent of Iberia" or "Mamaea, an Emesan princess".

So, let me ask again, and add: what is the EVIDENCE for:

-- Zenobius "king of Palmyra"
-- Malchus "king of Palmyra"
-- "Zenobia Co-regent of Iberia daughter of Zenobius king of Palmyra"
-- "Mamaea, an Emesan princess" wife of "Malchus king of Palmyra"

None of this is in Settipani, and David Hughes is hardly an acceptable
authority.

Chris

Don Stone

Re: Sassanid Emperors of Persia

Legg inn av Don Stone » 19 jan 2005 18:01:02

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
Hi Kelsey, good questions.

This should answer some questions of the others as well.

As usual I have used a variety of sources for my genealogy. For the
most part the wives come from Mommaerts, the more exotic ones that is.

For your website (and any other writing you do), I recommend not citing
Mommaerts as an authority for a particular connection but instead thanking
him for calling your attention to that connection.

Mommaerts himself will tell you that he often itemizes possible connections
and puts the result before the public in order to stimuluate discussion and
further research. I don't think he expects to be "taken as gospel" in most
cases. Especially in the case of exotic wives of Persian rulers, I think we
have a set of intriguing possibilities rather than conclusions from detailed
study.

-- Don Stone

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