Sir Thomas Arundell
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Sir Thomas Arundell
I am looking for information on the Arudell family. Through my
research I have discovered that Thomas Arundell obtained the title of
Count of the Holy Roman Empire that would be passed on through both
male and female lines. My great great grandmother is Aeddan Arundell,
a direct descendant of Sir Thomas Arundell. Would this allow me to
claim the title of count and if so where would I go to claim this title?
research I have discovered that Thomas Arundell obtained the title of
Count of the Holy Roman Empire that would be passed on through both
male and female lines. My great great grandmother is Aeddan Arundell,
a direct descendant of Sir Thomas Arundell. Would this allow me to
claim the title of count and if so where would I go to claim this title?
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Would this allow me to claim the title of count and if so where would
I go to claim this title?
No. I am also a descendant - from Mary (Arundell) Somerset.
Only legitimate, *male line* descendants, male and female, would be
entitled to use the title of count or countess. For many years some of
our Arundell cousins, like myself and yourself, not in the direct male
line, have had the illusion they had a right to this title. It does
not.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
I am looking for a John Arundel who married Susanna Samwell Edwards
somewhere around 1576-1580. Have you any recommendations as to
genealogical or historical publications that might identify this
Arundel?
Cynthia Montgomery
---
Dear Ms. Montgomery:
You and I must be cousins. I descend in one of my American lines from
Susanna (Samwell) Edwards, though her descendant Alice (Freeman)
(Thompson) Parke. I presume this is also your line.
No, I am sorry to say I know nothing about Susanna's other, Arundell,
husband. The Arundell of Wardour family (from which I also descend [as
in previous email]) is a *very* small family. There are however numerous
other distantly related Arundell lines, centering around Lanherne and
Trerice in Cornwall. Perhaps this Thomas belongs somehow to them.
All best,
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
starbuck95@hotmail.com
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Remember that John Arundel was the second husband of Susanna (Samwell)
(Edwards) (Arundel) Bill, and hence he must have been married to her
(considerably) before 1557 (the date of the will of her THIRD husband,
John Bill).
genealogical or historical publications that might identify this
Arundel?
Cynthia Montgomery
(Edwards) (Arundel) Bill, and hence he must have been married to her
(considerably) before 1557 (the date of the will of her THIRD husband,
John Bill).
I am looking for a John Arundel who married Susanna Samwell Edwards
somewhere around 1576-1580. Have you any recommendations as to
genealogical or historical publications that might identify this
Arundel?
Cynthia Montgomery
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
In message of 11 Jan, "starbuck95@hotmail.com" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:
This CDROM on Arundell genealogy might help (CP categorised it as
excellent):
http://www.abc-publications.co.uk/shop/ ... p?p=23ea5f
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Remember that John Arundel was the second husband of Susanna (Samwell)
(Edwards) (Arundel) Bill, and hence he must have been married to her
(considerably) before 1557 (the date of the will of her THIRD husband,
John Bill).
I am looking for a John Arundel who married Susanna Samwell Edwards
somewhere around 1576-1580. Have you any recommendations as to
genealogical or historical publications that might identify this
Arundel?
This CDROM on Arundell genealogy might help (CP categorised it as
excellent):
http://www.abc-publications.co.uk/shop/ ... p?p=23ea5f
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
It would be in your own & other people's interests if you can adjust the
settings in whatever system you use for posting to the newsgroup or mailing
list, so that quoted text from previous message/s appears with line markers
(> or | are usual), indicating the order of posts & replies.
From the message below, in the absence of a second signature & and if not
for our recent exchange, SGM readers might suppose that "starbuck95" is
named Cynthis Montgomery.
Peter Stewart
<starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105479069.870965.225680@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
settings in whatever system you use for posting to the newsgroup or mailing
list, so that quoted text from previous message/s appears with line markers
(> or | are usual), indicating the order of posts & replies.
From the message below, in the absence of a second signature & and if not
for our recent exchange, SGM readers might suppose that "starbuck95" is
named Cynthis Montgomery.
Peter Stewart
<starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105479069.870965.225680@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Remember that John Arundel was the second husband of Susanna (Samwell)
(Edwards) (Arundel) Bill, and hence he must have been married to her
(considerably) before 1557 (the date of the will of her THIRD husband,
John Bill).
I am looking for a John Arundel who married Susanna Samwell Edwards
somewhere around 1576-1580. Have you any recommendations as to
genealogical or historical publications that might identify this
Arundel?
Cynthia Montgomery
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
<j_sutton33@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105457554.296856.139700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e3b1bf.070@CENTRAL_SVR2...
Could you tell us on what basis you make this judgment? I, too, am a
descendant of Mary Arundell Somerset, through her granddaughter, Maria
Johanna Somerset, immigrant to Maryland and have been told by reputable
authorities that the style and dignity of a count of the Holy Roman Empire
descends to all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell. To be sure, a
title of nobility in an empire that hasn't existed in 199 years is not a
matter of great practical moment.
JSG
news:1105457554.296856.139700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I am looking for information on the Arudell family. Through my
research I have discovered that Thomas Arundell obtained the title of
Count of the Holy Roman Empire that would be passed on through both
male and female lines. My great great grandmother is Aeddan Arundell,
a direct descendant of Sir Thomas Arundell. Would this allow me to
claim the title of count and if so where would I go to claim this title?
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e3b1bf.070@CENTRAL_SVR2...
Would this allow me to claim the title of count and if so where would
I go to claim this title?
No. I am also a descendant - from Mary (Arundell) Somerset.
Only legitimate, *male line* descendants, male and female, would be
entitled to use the title of count or countess. For many years some of
our Arundell cousins, like myself and yourself, not in the direct male
line, have had the illusion they had a right to this title. It does
not.
Could you tell us on what basis you make this judgment? I, too, am a
descendant of Mary Arundell Somerset, through her granddaughter, Maria
Johanna Somerset, immigrant to Maryland and have been told by reputable
authorities that the style and dignity of a count of the Holy Roman Empire
descends to all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell. To be sure, a
title of nobility in an empire that hasn't existed in 199 years is not a
matter of great practical moment.
JSG
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
The wording of the patent form the Emperor to Thomas Arundell has been
often quoted. I have never seen the document myself, nor have I
encountered personally anyone who has. That he was created a Count of
the Holy Roman Empire is beyond question. But *never* in the annals of
the Holy Roman Empire, nor of any other European monarchy, has such a
title been extended to *all* descendants, male and female, *in all
lines". *If* the patent did (as has been quoted) state the title's
heritability as you and others have stated, there would first of all be
tens of thousands of us who were Counts and Countess Arundell - absurd
on its face.
What is know is that such a title *would* be held by all legitimate
children of such a count - but, crucially, NEVER would a Countess
Greiffenstein (say) marry a Herr Schmidt and have children inherit their
mother's comital title.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
often quoted. I have never seen the document myself, nor have I
encountered personally anyone who has. That he was created a Count of
the Holy Roman Empire is beyond question. But *never* in the annals of
the Holy Roman Empire, nor of any other European monarchy, has such a
title been extended to *all* descendants, male and female, *in all
lines". *If* the patent did (as has been quoted) state the title's
heritability as you and others have stated, there would first of all be
tens of thousands of us who were Counts and Countess Arundell - absurd
on its face.
What is know is that such a title *would* be held by all legitimate
children of such a count - but, crucially, NEVER would a Countess
Greiffenstein (say) marry a Herr Schmidt and have children inherit their
mother's comital title.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Where would the actual patent of nobility be at this point, or at least a
full quotation of it? Obviously we need to go to the source.
I certainly agree that the remainder would be most unusual, but far stranger
clauses have been written into other patents. For all I know, Rudolph II may
have fully expected him to get killed--he was apparently recklessly brave to
the point of idiocy--and thus have no descendants, or reasoned that since he
was English, not Austrian, Elizabeth I would force him to renounce the
title. (She did toss him into the Fleet Prison for not getting her
permission to take it.)
I agree that it is probably a wishful misreading of the patent, but I'd sure
like to see the exact wording.
JSG
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e4ec33.094@CENTRAL_SVR2...
full quotation of it? Obviously we need to go to the source.
I certainly agree that the remainder would be most unusual, but far stranger
clauses have been written into other patents. For all I know, Rudolph II may
have fully expected him to get killed--he was apparently recklessly brave to
the point of idiocy--and thus have no descendants, or reasoned that since he
was English, not Austrian, Elizabeth I would force him to renounce the
title. (She did toss him into the Fleet Prison for not getting her
permission to take it.)
I agree that it is probably a wishful misreading of the patent, but I'd sure
like to see the exact wording.
JSG
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e4ec33.094@CENTRAL_SVR2...
The wording of the patent form the Emperor to Thomas Arundell has been
often quoted. I have never seen the document myself, nor have I
encountered personally anyone who has. That he was created a Count of
the Holy Roman Empire is beyond question. But *never* in the annals of
the Holy Roman Empire, nor of any other European monarchy, has such a
title been extended to *all* descendants, male and female, *in all
lines". *If* the patent did (as has been quoted) state the title's
heritability as you and others have stated, there would first of all be
tens of thousands of us who were Counts and Countess Arundell - absurd
on its face.
What is know is that such a title *would* be held by all legitimate
children of such a count - but, crucially, NEVER would a Countess
Greiffenstein (say) marry a Herr Schmidt and have children inherit their
mother's comital title.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
The patent for this decree is held at the College of Arms in London.
There are several websites that show the wording of the decree. Like
many people I have thought that this title was passed through both male
and female lines but the more I research the more I find this isn't so.
However there are a lot of opnions that this decree is unique and
different from others in that time. Either way it's a nice debate to
chat about.
There are several websites that show the wording of the decree. Like
many people I have thought that this title was passed through both male
and female lines but the more I research the more I find this isn't so.
However there are a lot of opnions that this decree is unique and
different from others in that time. Either way it's a nice debate to
chat about.
-
Kelsey Williams
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Hello,
The full text of the patent appears in John Selden's _Titles of Honor_,
3rd Ed. (London: E. Tyler & R. Holt, 1673), pp. 346-348:
"Insignes etiam virtutes quibus illustre genus tuum magis ac magis domi
forisque illustres, ut liberalibus primum disciplinis pectus imbueris,
peregrinas Provincias adieris, multorum mores, multorum & Urbes
videris, magnumque rerum usum acquisieris, ut denique tandem hoc faero,
quod contra communem Christiani nominis hostem Turcam gerimus, bello
raro ac singulari zelo excitus tam longiuquis & remotis ex partibus in
Hungariam propriis stipendiis nobis militatum veneris, teque in apertis
praeliis in Civitatum & Castrorum oppugnationibus fortiter ac strennue
gesseris, ut omnibus nationibus admirationi Nobisque & a Serenissimo
Principe Archiduce Mathia fratre nostro charissimo & a primariis
execitus nostri praefectis majorem in modum commendatus fueris, insigni
hoc inter alia exemplo spectato quod in expugnatione oppidi Aquatici
juxta Strigonium, Vexillum Turcis tua manu eripueris & in principiis
tempore pugnae te spectandum praebueris, praetermittere noluimus quin
te posterosque tuo legitimos insigni aliquo gratiae nostae documento
benigne decoremus; Motu itaque propria, ex certa nostra scientia, animo
bene deliberato, ac sano nostrae plenitudine, te supradictum Thomam
Arundelium qui jam ante Comitum consanguinitatem a majoribus acceptam
in Anglia obtines, omnesque @ singulos liberos haeredes, posteros &
descendentes tuos legitimos utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie
nascituros, etiam veros sacros Romani Imperii Comites & Comitissas,
creavimus, fecimus & nominavimus, Tituloque honore & dignitate
Comitatus Imperialis auximus atque insignivimus sicut vigore
praesentium creamus, facimus & nominamus, augemus & insignimus,
volentes praesentique Edicto nostro Caesareo imperpetuum valituro
firmiter & expresse decernentes quod tu, supradictre Thoma Arundelie,
una cum
universa prole atque posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in
infinitum titulum, nomen, & dignitatem Comitum Imperii perpetuis
deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre eeque tam in literis
quam nuncupatione verbali in rebus Spiritualibus & Temporalibus,
Ecclesiasticis & Prophanis honorari appellari & reputari ac denique
omnibus & singulis honoribus, ornamentis, dignitatibus, gratiis,
libertatibus, privilegiis, juribus, indultis, consuetudinibus,
praeeminentiis & praerogativis libere & citra cujuslibet impedimentum
uti, frui, potiri & gaudere possitis & debeatis quibus caeteri nostri
Sacri Imperii Comites fruuntur, potiuntur & gaudent jure vel
consuetudine. Non obstantibus in contrarium facientibus quibuscunque
etiamsi talia forent de quibus in praesentibus specialis & expressa
mentio fieri deberet, quibus omnibus & singulis quatenus obstarent feu
obstare quovismodo possent Caesarea auctoritate nostra scienter
derogamus sufficienterque derogatum esse volumus & declaramus per
praesentes; Serenissimae tamen Principis & Dominae Elizabethae, Reginae
Angliae, Franciae & Hiberniae sororis & consanguineae nostrae
charissimae juribus ac superioritatibus semper illaesis ac salvis.
Nulli ergo ominino hominum, cujuscunque gradus, status, ordinis,
conditionis et dignitatis existerint et quacunque praefulgeant
eimnentia, liceat hanc nostrae condirmationis, ratificationis,
approbationis, corroborationis, erectionis, autoritatis, voluntatis,
gratiae & decreti paginam infringere aut ei quovis ausu temerario
contravenire. Quisquis vero id fecerit, is noverit fese ex ipso facto
in nostram & Sacri Romani Imperii indignationem gravissimam ac poenam
centum Marcarum auri puri (quarum mediam partem fisco nostro Imperiali,
residuam vero injuriam passorum usibus solvendam et applicandam
decernimus, omni veniae feu remissionis spe prorsus sublata)
incursurum. Harum testimonio literarum manu nostra subscriptarum et
sigilli nostri Caesarei appensione munitarum. Datum in Arce Nostra
Regia Prafae, die decima quarta mensis Decembris, Anno Domini Millesimo
quingentesimo nonagesimo quinto, Regnorum nostrorum, Romani vicesimo
primo, Hingarici vicesimo quarto et Bohemici itidem vicesimo primo.
Rudolphus.
Ad mandatum
Sac. Caf.
Majestatis
proprium
Jo.
Barvitius."
The crucial part is clearly the bit referring to, "posteritate legitima
mascula & foeminea in infinitium titulum, nomen, & disgnitatem Comitum
Imperii pereptuis deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre . .
.." Initially it would seem to support the idea that the title is to be
held by all descendants and, indeed, this view was taken by Horace
Round in an article which appeared in _The Ancestor_ (IIRC). On the
other hand, I have talked to Guy Stair Sainty about this recently and
he comments that this formulation is to be found in all Imperial
patents of nobility and is nothing out of the ordinary.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
John Steele Gordon wrote:
The full text of the patent appears in John Selden's _Titles of Honor_,
3rd Ed. (London: E. Tyler & R. Holt, 1673), pp. 346-348:
"Insignes etiam virtutes quibus illustre genus tuum magis ac magis domi
forisque illustres, ut liberalibus primum disciplinis pectus imbueris,
peregrinas Provincias adieris, multorum mores, multorum & Urbes
videris, magnumque rerum usum acquisieris, ut denique tandem hoc faero,
quod contra communem Christiani nominis hostem Turcam gerimus, bello
raro ac singulari zelo excitus tam longiuquis & remotis ex partibus in
Hungariam propriis stipendiis nobis militatum veneris, teque in apertis
praeliis in Civitatum & Castrorum oppugnationibus fortiter ac strennue
gesseris, ut omnibus nationibus admirationi Nobisque & a Serenissimo
Principe Archiduce Mathia fratre nostro charissimo & a primariis
execitus nostri praefectis majorem in modum commendatus fueris, insigni
hoc inter alia exemplo spectato quod in expugnatione oppidi Aquatici
juxta Strigonium, Vexillum Turcis tua manu eripueris & in principiis
tempore pugnae te spectandum praebueris, praetermittere noluimus quin
te posterosque tuo legitimos insigni aliquo gratiae nostae documento
benigne decoremus; Motu itaque propria, ex certa nostra scientia, animo
bene deliberato, ac sano nostrae plenitudine, te supradictum Thomam
Arundelium qui jam ante Comitum consanguinitatem a majoribus acceptam
in Anglia obtines, omnesque @ singulos liberos haeredes, posteros &
descendentes tuos legitimos utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie
nascituros, etiam veros sacros Romani Imperii Comites & Comitissas,
creavimus, fecimus & nominavimus, Tituloque honore & dignitate
Comitatus Imperialis auximus atque insignivimus sicut vigore
praesentium creamus, facimus & nominamus, augemus & insignimus,
volentes praesentique Edicto nostro Caesareo imperpetuum valituro
firmiter & expresse decernentes quod tu, supradictre Thoma Arundelie,
una cum
universa prole atque posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in
infinitum titulum, nomen, & dignitatem Comitum Imperii perpetuis
deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre eeque tam in literis
quam nuncupatione verbali in rebus Spiritualibus & Temporalibus,
Ecclesiasticis & Prophanis honorari appellari & reputari ac denique
omnibus & singulis honoribus, ornamentis, dignitatibus, gratiis,
libertatibus, privilegiis, juribus, indultis, consuetudinibus,
praeeminentiis & praerogativis libere & citra cujuslibet impedimentum
uti, frui, potiri & gaudere possitis & debeatis quibus caeteri nostri
Sacri Imperii Comites fruuntur, potiuntur & gaudent jure vel
consuetudine. Non obstantibus in contrarium facientibus quibuscunque
etiamsi talia forent de quibus in praesentibus specialis & expressa
mentio fieri deberet, quibus omnibus & singulis quatenus obstarent feu
obstare quovismodo possent Caesarea auctoritate nostra scienter
derogamus sufficienterque derogatum esse volumus & declaramus per
praesentes; Serenissimae tamen Principis & Dominae Elizabethae, Reginae
Angliae, Franciae & Hiberniae sororis & consanguineae nostrae
charissimae juribus ac superioritatibus semper illaesis ac salvis.
Nulli ergo ominino hominum, cujuscunque gradus, status, ordinis,
conditionis et dignitatis existerint et quacunque praefulgeant
eimnentia, liceat hanc nostrae condirmationis, ratificationis,
approbationis, corroborationis, erectionis, autoritatis, voluntatis,
gratiae & decreti paginam infringere aut ei quovis ausu temerario
contravenire. Quisquis vero id fecerit, is noverit fese ex ipso facto
in nostram & Sacri Romani Imperii indignationem gravissimam ac poenam
centum Marcarum auri puri (quarum mediam partem fisco nostro Imperiali,
residuam vero injuriam passorum usibus solvendam et applicandam
decernimus, omni veniae feu remissionis spe prorsus sublata)
incursurum. Harum testimonio literarum manu nostra subscriptarum et
sigilli nostri Caesarei appensione munitarum. Datum in Arce Nostra
Regia Prafae, die decima quarta mensis Decembris, Anno Domini Millesimo
quingentesimo nonagesimo quinto, Regnorum nostrorum, Romani vicesimo
primo, Hingarici vicesimo quarto et Bohemici itidem vicesimo primo.
Rudolphus.
Ad mandatum
Sac. Caf.
Majestatis
proprium
Jo.
Barvitius."
The crucial part is clearly the bit referring to, "posteritate legitima
mascula & foeminea in infinitium titulum, nomen, & disgnitatem Comitum
Imperii pereptuis deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre . .
.." Initially it would seem to support the idea that the title is to be
held by all descendants and, indeed, this view was taken by Horace
Round in an article which appeared in _The Ancestor_ (IIRC). On the
other hand, I have talked to Guy Stair Sainty about this recently and
he comments that this formulation is to be found in all Imperial
patents of nobility and is nothing out of the ordinary.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
John Steele Gordon wrote:
Where would the actual patent of nobility be at this point, or at
least a
full quotation of it? Obviously we need to go to the source.
I certainly agree that the remainder would be most unusual, but far
stranger
clauses have been written into other patents. For all I know, Rudolph
II may
have fully expected him to get killed--he was apparently recklessly
brave to
the point of idiocy--and thus have no descendants, or reasoned that
since he
was English, not Austrian, Elizabeth I would force him to renounce
the
title. (She did toss him into the Fleet Prison for not getting her
permission to take it.)
I agree that it is probably a wishful misreading of the patent, but
I'd sure
like to see the exact wording.
JSG
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e4ec33.094@CENTRAL_SVR2...
The wording of the patent form the Emperor to Thomas Arundell has
been
often quoted. I have never seen the document myself, nor have I
encountered personally anyone who has. That he was created a Count
of
the Holy Roman Empire is beyond question. But *never* in the annals
of
the Holy Roman Empire, nor of any other European monarchy, has such
a
title been extended to *all* descendants, male and female, *in all
lines". *If* the patent did (as has been quoted) state the title's
heritability as you and others have stated, there would first of
all be
tens of thousands of us who were Counts and Countess Arundell -
absurd
on its face.
What is know is that such a title *would* be held by all legitimate
children of such a count - but, crucially, NEVER would a Countess
Greiffenstein (say) marry a Herr Schmidt and have children inherit
their
mother's comital title.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Could someone whose Latin is better than mine (that's a large group)
translate the "money quote" here?
As nearly as I can make it out, it seems to say what people have always said
it said, that all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell are entitled to
the style and dignity of a count of the empire. If it is common boilerplate
in imperial patents of nobility, so be it, it still says what it says. (And
there's no House of Lords to disabuse me of my pretensions if I claim the
title--a nice thing about extinct empires).
JSG
"Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:1105575403.922108.13850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
translate the "money quote" here?
As nearly as I can make it out, it seems to say what people have always said
it said, that all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell are entitled to
the style and dignity of a count of the empire. If it is common boilerplate
in imperial patents of nobility, so be it, it still says what it says. (And
there's no House of Lords to disabuse me of my pretensions if I claim the
title--a nice thing about extinct empires).
JSG
"Kelsey Williams" <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:1105575403.922108.13850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Hello,
The full text of the patent appears in John Selden's _Titles of Honor_,
3rd Ed. (London: E. Tyler & R. Holt, 1673), pp. 346-348:
"Insignes etiam virtutes quibus illustre genus tuum magis ac magis domi
forisque illustres, ut liberalibus primum disciplinis pectus imbueris,
peregrinas Provincias adieris, multorum mores, multorum & Urbes
videris, magnumque rerum usum acquisieris, ut denique tandem hoc faero,
quod contra communem Christiani nominis hostem Turcam gerimus, bello
raro ac singulari zelo excitus tam longiuquis & remotis ex partibus in
Hungariam propriis stipendiis nobis militatum veneris, teque in apertis
praeliis in Civitatum & Castrorum oppugnationibus fortiter ac strennue
gesseris, ut omnibus nationibus admirationi Nobisque & a Serenissimo
Principe Archiduce Mathia fratre nostro charissimo & a primariis
execitus nostri praefectis majorem in modum commendatus fueris, insigni
hoc inter alia exemplo spectato quod in expugnatione oppidi Aquatici
juxta Strigonium, Vexillum Turcis tua manu eripueris & in principiis
tempore pugnae te spectandum praebueris, praetermittere noluimus quin
te posterosque tuo legitimos insigni aliquo gratiae nostae documento
benigne decoremus; Motu itaque propria, ex certa nostra scientia, animo
bene deliberato, ac sano nostrae plenitudine, te supradictum Thomam
Arundelium qui jam ante Comitum consanguinitatem a majoribus acceptam
in Anglia obtines, omnesque @ singulos liberos haeredes, posteros &
descendentes tuos legitimos utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie
nascituros, etiam veros sacros Romani Imperii Comites & Comitissas,
creavimus, fecimus & nominavimus, Tituloque honore & dignitate
Comitatus Imperialis auximus atque insignivimus sicut vigore
praesentium creamus, facimus & nominamus, augemus & insignimus,
volentes praesentique Edicto nostro Caesareo imperpetuum valituro
firmiter & expresse decernentes quod tu, supradictre Thoma Arundelie,
una cum
universa prole atque posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in
infinitum titulum, nomen, & dignitatem Comitum Imperii perpetuis
deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre eeque tam in literis
quam nuncupatione verbali in rebus Spiritualibus & Temporalibus,
Ecclesiasticis & Prophanis honorari appellari & reputari ac denique
omnibus & singulis honoribus, ornamentis, dignitatibus, gratiis,
libertatibus, privilegiis, juribus, indultis, consuetudinibus,
praeeminentiis & praerogativis libere & citra cujuslibet impedimentum
uti, frui, potiri & gaudere possitis & debeatis quibus caeteri nostri
Sacri Imperii Comites fruuntur, potiuntur & gaudent jure vel
consuetudine. Non obstantibus in contrarium facientibus quibuscunque
etiamsi talia forent de quibus in praesentibus specialis & expressa
mentio fieri deberet, quibus omnibus & singulis quatenus obstarent feu
obstare quovismodo possent Caesarea auctoritate nostra scienter
derogamus sufficienterque derogatum esse volumus & declaramus per
praesentes; Serenissimae tamen Principis & Dominae Elizabethae, Reginae
Angliae, Franciae & Hiberniae sororis & consanguineae nostrae
charissimae juribus ac superioritatibus semper illaesis ac salvis.
Nulli ergo ominino hominum, cujuscunque gradus, status, ordinis,
conditionis et dignitatis existerint et quacunque praefulgeant
eimnentia, liceat hanc nostrae condirmationis, ratificationis,
approbationis, corroborationis, erectionis, autoritatis, voluntatis,
gratiae & decreti paginam infringere aut ei quovis ausu temerario
contravenire. Quisquis vero id fecerit, is noverit fese ex ipso facto
in nostram & Sacri Romani Imperii indignationem gravissimam ac poenam
centum Marcarum auri puri (quarum mediam partem fisco nostro Imperiali,
residuam vero injuriam passorum usibus solvendam et applicandam
decernimus, omni veniae feu remissionis spe prorsus sublata)
incursurum. Harum testimonio literarum manu nostra subscriptarum et
sigilli nostri Caesarei appensione munitarum. Datum in Arce Nostra
Regia Prafae, die decima quarta mensis Decembris, Anno Domini Millesimo
quingentesimo nonagesimo quinto, Regnorum nostrorum, Romani vicesimo
primo, Hingarici vicesimo quarto et Bohemici itidem vicesimo primo.
Rudolphus.
Ad mandatum
Sac. Caf.
Majestatis
proprium
Jo.
Barvitius."
The crucial part is clearly the bit referring to, "posteritate legitima
mascula & foeminea in infinitium titulum, nomen, & disgnitatem Comitum
Imperii pereptuis deinceps temporibus habere & obtinere & deferre . .
." Initially it would seem to support the idea that the title is to be
held by all descendants and, indeed, this view was taken by Horace
Round in an article which appeared in _The Ancestor_ (IIRC). On the
other hand, I have talked to Guy Stair Sainty about this recently and
he comments that this formulation is to be found in all Imperial
patents of nobility and is nothing out of the ordinary.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
John Steele Gordon wrote:
Where would the actual patent of nobility be at this point, or at
least a
full quotation of it? Obviously we need to go to the source.
I certainly agree that the remainder would be most unusual, but far
stranger
clauses have been written into other patents. For all I know, Rudolph
II may
have fully expected him to get killed--he was apparently recklessly
brave to
the point of idiocy--and thus have no descendants, or reasoned that
since he
was English, not Austrian, Elizabeth I would force him to renounce
the
title. (She did toss him into the Fleet Prison for not getting her
permission to take it.)
I agree that it is probably a wishful misreading of the patent, but
I'd sure
like to see the exact wording.
JSG
""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s1e4ec33.094@CENTRAL_SVR2...
The wording of the patent form the Emperor to Thomas Arundell has
been
often quoted. I have never seen the document myself, nor have I
encountered personally anyone who has. That he was created a Count
of
the Holy Roman Empire is beyond question. But *never* in the annals
of
the Holy Roman Empire, nor of any other European monarchy, has such
a
title been extended to *all* descendants, male and female, *in all
lines". *If* the patent did (as has been quoted) state the title's
heritability as you and others have stated, there would first of
all be
tens of thousands of us who were Counts and Countess Arundell -
absurd
on its face.
What is know is that such a title *would* be held by all legitimate
children of such a count - but, crucially, NEVER would a Countess
Greiffenstein (say) marry a Herr Schmidt and have children inherit
their
mother's comital title.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
If it is common boilerplate in imperial patents of nobility, so be
it.
This document needs to be compared to a another contemporaneous patent
for the creation of a Count of the Holy Roman Empire (before I and
hordes of others rush out and have "Count/Countess Arundell" printed on
our business cards)!
Why on earth would the Emperor Rudolph have extended such an open-ended
patent on Thomas Arundell - when *no other monarch in Europe* to that
date or since did so?! Whatever the translation proves to be, the
salient fact of *its likely interpreration* in those times and in that
place needs to be established.
Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Comments interspersed:
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OlCFd.4846$C_6.1789@fe10.lga...
"omnesque singulos liberos haeredes, posteros & descendentes tuos legitimos
utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie nascituros, etiam veros sacros Romani
Imperii Comites & Comitissas, creavimus, fecimus & nominavimus.atque
posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in infinitum titulum, nomen, &
dignitatem Comitum Imperii..."
all and each individual amongst your children, heirs, successors and
legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in whatever generation,
we have created, made and named trusty counts and countesses of the Roman
empire.and [granted] to your entire issue and lawful posterity, male and
female, for ever the title, name and dignity of imperial counts...
Tony Hoskins is right, the patent means what the emperor intended by it, not
what else can be literally read into it - in this case, by the "issue" and
"posterity" of Thomas Arundell it clearly meant all the males and females in
legitimate AGNATIC descent from him: anyone else would necessarily be the
"issue" and "posterity" of someone else, that is of another family.
Otherwise the German nobility would have become a total nonsense - as some
might say it was, I suppose.
Since the House of Lords has no jurisdiction outside the United Kingdom,
rather than settling for the bogus style of "Count Arundell" you could just
as freely call yourself by a more swanky title, such as "earl of Piccadilly"
or "duke of Mayfair".
Peter Stewart
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OlCFd.4846$C_6.1789@fe10.lga...
Could someone whose Latin is better than mine (that's a large group)
translate the "money quote" here?
"omnesque singulos liberos haeredes, posteros & descendentes tuos legitimos
utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie nascituros, etiam veros sacros Romani
Imperii Comites & Comitissas, creavimus, fecimus & nominavimus.atque
posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in infinitum titulum, nomen, &
dignitatem Comitum Imperii..."
all and each individual amongst your children, heirs, successors and
legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in whatever generation,
we have created, made and named trusty counts and countesses of the Roman
empire.and [granted] to your entire issue and lawful posterity, male and
female, for ever the title, name and dignity of imperial counts...
As nearly as I can make it out, it seems to say what people have always
said it said, that all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell are
entitled to the style and dignity of a count of the empire. If it is
common boilerplate in imperial patents of nobility, so be it, it still
says what it says. (And there's no House of Lords to disabuse me of my
pretensions if I claim the title--a nice thing about extinct empires).
Tony Hoskins is right, the patent means what the emperor intended by it, not
what else can be literally read into it - in this case, by the "issue" and
"posterity" of Thomas Arundell it clearly meant all the males and females in
legitimate AGNATIC descent from him: anyone else would necessarily be the
"issue" and "posterity" of someone else, that is of another family.
Otherwise the German nobility would have become a total nonsense - as some
might say it was, I suppose.
Since the House of Lords has no jurisdiction outside the United Kingdom,
rather than settling for the bogus style of "Count Arundell" you could just
as freely call yourself by a more swanky title, such as "earl of Piccadilly"
or "duke of Mayfair".
Peter Stewart
-
John Steele Gordon
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
If agnatic was meant, Rudolph II should fire the lawyer who wrote such
sloppy language. "Legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in
whatever generation" sounds pretty clear to me.
1) Because the concept of nobility on the continent was very different from
the concept in Britain, we might be looking at this through anglo-colored
glasses. Does anyone have any expertise in continental patents?
2) It's possible that the hapless clerk who wrote out the patent simply had
a slip of the pen and left out a word. That is hardly unprecedented. (The
Mexican city of Puebla is so-called because the clerk writing the charter
for the town of Pueblo misspelled the town's name. When Hiram Ulysses Grant
went to West Point, the Congressman who appointed him got his name screwed
up and he was appointed as Ulysses Simpson Grant. Grant liked the initials
U.S. Grant--they came in very handy later in his career--didn't like Hiram,
and that was that.)
3) Claiming the title of Count Arundell would be a lot less bogus and more
legal than making up a title out of whole cloth. Look what happened to Lord
Haw-Haw. And when the Queen finally finds the time to give me my earldom
(she's busy right now telling her grandson Harry not to be such an idiot), I
don't think I'd choose Earl of Piccadilly (that sounds like a title out of a
P. G. Wodehouse novel or even Gilbert and Sullivan). Something Scottish
would be nice--my surname is Gordon, after all. There's a little town
outside of Aberdeen called Blackdog and, since I'm fond of Labrador
retrievers . . . .
JSG
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gBKFd.117997$K7.60953@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
sloppy language. "Legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in
whatever generation" sounds pretty clear to me.
1) Because the concept of nobility on the continent was very different from
the concept in Britain, we might be looking at this through anglo-colored
glasses. Does anyone have any expertise in continental patents?
2) It's possible that the hapless clerk who wrote out the patent simply had
a slip of the pen and left out a word. That is hardly unprecedented. (The
Mexican city of Puebla is so-called because the clerk writing the charter
for the town of Pueblo misspelled the town's name. When Hiram Ulysses Grant
went to West Point, the Congressman who appointed him got his name screwed
up and he was appointed as Ulysses Simpson Grant. Grant liked the initials
U.S. Grant--they came in very handy later in his career--didn't like Hiram,
and that was that.)
3) Claiming the title of Count Arundell would be a lot less bogus and more
legal than making up a title out of whole cloth. Look what happened to Lord
Haw-Haw. And when the Queen finally finds the time to give me my earldom
(she's busy right now telling her grandson Harry not to be such an idiot), I
don't think I'd choose Earl of Piccadilly (that sounds like a title out of a
P. G. Wodehouse novel or even Gilbert and Sullivan). Something Scottish
would be nice--my surname is Gordon, after all. There's a little town
outside of Aberdeen called Blackdog and, since I'm fond of Labrador
retrievers . . . .
JSG
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gBKFd.117997$K7.60953@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Comments interspersed:
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OlCFd.4846$C_6.1789@fe10.lga...
Could someone whose Latin is better than mine (that's a large group)
translate the "money quote" here?
"omnesque singulos liberos haeredes, posteros & descendentes tuos
legitimos utriusque sexus natos aternaque serie nascituros, etiam veros
sacros Romani Imperii Comites & Comitissas, creavimus, fecimus &
nominavimus.atque posteritate legitima mascula & foeminea in infinitum
titulum, nomen, & dignitatem Comitum Imperii..."
all and each individual amongst your children, heirs, successors and
legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in whatever generation,
we have created, made and named trusty counts and countesses of the Roman
empire.and [granted] to your entire issue and lawful posterity, male and
female, for ever the title, name and dignity of imperial counts...
As nearly as I can make it out, it seems to say what people have always
said it said, that all legitimate descendants of Thomas Arundell are
entitled to the style and dignity of a count of the empire. If it is
common boilerplate in imperial patents of nobility, so be it, it still
says what it says. (And there's no House of Lords to disabuse me of my
pretensions if I claim the title--a nice thing about extinct empires).
Tony Hoskins is right, the patent means what the emperor intended by it,
not what else can be literally read into it - in this case, by the "issue"
and "posterity" of Thomas Arundell it clearly meant all the males and
females in legitimate AGNATIC descent from him: anyone else would
necessarily be the "issue" and "posterity" of someone else, that is of
another family. Otherwise the German nobility would have become a total
nonsense - as some might say it was, I suppose.
Since the House of Lords has no jurisdiction outside the United Kingdom,
rather than settling for the bogus style of "Count Arundell" you could
just as freely call yourself by a more swanky title, such as "earl of
Piccadilly" or "duke of Mayfair".
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Friday, 14 January, 2005
Dear Peter, Tony, JSG [the future Baronet Blackdog], et al.,
As opposed to relying on enforcement of an old charter, it seems
a new creation would be much easier to defend.
I recommend seeking same directly from the Holy Roman Emperor
himself to make the arrangements.
Cheers,
from just outside Anne Arundel [not Arundell] County, Maryland,
John
Dear Peter, Tony, JSG [the future Baronet Blackdog], et al.,
As opposed to relying on enforcement of an old charter, it seems
a new creation would be much easier to defend.
I recommend seeking same directly from the Holy Roman Emperor
himself to make the arrangements.
Cheers,
from just outside Anne Arundel [not Arundell] County, Maryland,
John
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
In article <zlQFd.5231$cR.4878@fe10.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:
Sounds as if you've given this some thought. Good luck.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:
... And when the Queen finally finds the time to give me my earldom
(she's busy right now telling her grandson Harry not to be such an idiot), I
don't think I'd choose Earl of Piccadilly (that sounds like a title out of a
P. G. Wodehouse novel or even Gilbert and Sullivan). Something Scottish
would be nice--my surname is Gordon, after all. There's a little town
outside of Aberdeen called Blackdog and, since I'm fond of Labrador
retrievers . . . .
Sounds as if you've given this some thought. Good luck.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I'll settle for just plain "Lord of the Isles".
Don't need an Earldom
Doug McDonald
In article <zlQFd.5231$cR.4878@fe10.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:
... And when the Queen finally finds the time to give me my earldom
(she's busy right now .... There's a little town
outside of Aberdeen called Blackdog and, since I'm fond of Labrador
retrievers . . . .
Sounds as if you've given this some thought. Good luck.
I'll settle for just plain "Lord of the Isles".
Don't need an Earldom
Doug McDonald
-
Steven C. Perkins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
At 08:59 AM 1/14/2005 -0500, you wrote:
The grant for the Count Gurowski seems to be similar as all descendants
surnamed Gurowski are Count or Countess Gurowski. I don't know if it
extends to descendants of Wladislaw Gurowski with other surnames.
I don't have the actual grant, but they were created Counts in the Prussian
nobility in 1787. They were confirmed as Counts in the area of Poland in 1824.
They were confirmed Counts in the Russian nobility in 1844. They are believed
to have been Castellan of Kalisz in prior years. The title is recognized
for use
in the UK.
Evidence for the above by citation to official documents is solicited.
Steven C. Perkins
If agnatic was meant, Rudolph II should fire the lawyer who wrote such
sloppy language. "Legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten in
whatever generation" sounds pretty clear to me.
1) Because the concept of nobility on the continent was very different from
the concept in Britain, we might be looking at this through anglo-colored
glasses. Does anyone have any expertise in continental patents?
The grant for the Count Gurowski seems to be similar as all descendants
surnamed Gurowski are Count or Countess Gurowski. I don't know if it
extends to descendants of Wladislaw Gurowski with other surnames.
I don't have the actual grant, but they were created Counts in the Prussian
nobility in 1787. They were confirmed as Counts in the area of Poland in 1824.
They were confirmed Counts in the Russian nobility in 1844. They are believed
to have been Castellan of Kalisz in prior years. The title is recognized
for use
in the UK.
Evidence for the above by citation to official documents is solicited.
Steven C. Perkins
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Some choices for us Arundells (thanks to all for suggestions). Recommend
calling Bucks House right away to reserve your preference (avoid the
next New Year's Honours List rush):
Earl of Giggleswick
Earl of Badminton
Earl of Piccadilly
Duke of Mayfair
Baron Blackdog
Marquess of Blackadder
Viscount Littlebighampton
Baron Hanging Heaton
Baron Great Ouseburn
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
calling Bucks House right away to reserve your preference (avoid the
next New Year's Honours List rush):
Earl of Giggleswick
Earl of Badminton
Earl of Piccadilly
Duke of Mayfair
Baron Blackdog
Marquess of Blackadder
Viscount Littlebighampton
Baron Hanging Heaton
Baron Great Ouseburn
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1105714231.344445.86560@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
The touble is that the Holy Roman Empire was brought to a definite end - by
no less than the Holy Roman Emperor of the time, who chose to become emperor
of Austria instead - so there can't be such a personage around to grant new
titles today.
John Steele Gordon is clinging to a literal stance based on a quite
different idea of a nobleman's male and female descendants than ever
obtained in Germany. Women obviously could inherit a right to the family's
dignity, as is made explicit in the Arundell patent, but they could not pass
it on to their own children who belonged for this purpose uniquely &
entirely to their father's family, not to hers.
The war of the Austrian succession did not disturb this principle within the
empire. If proof of the patent's intention is required, look no further than
Count Thomas the Valiant's own descendants through female links - none of
these assumed the Arundell title while there was still a Holy Roman (or
Austrian) Empire to give it some cachet.
Peter Stewart
news:1105714231.344445.86560@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Friday, 14 January, 2005
Dear Peter, Tony, JSG [the future Baronet Blackdog], et al.,
As opposed to relying on enforcement of an old charter, it seems
a new creation would be much easier to defend.
I recommend seeking same directly from the Holy Roman Emperor
himself to make the arrangements.
The touble is that the Holy Roman Empire was brought to a definite end - by
no less than the Holy Roman Emperor of the time, who chose to become emperor
of Austria instead - so there can't be such a personage around to grant new
titles today.
John Steele Gordon is clinging to a literal stance based on a quite
different idea of a nobleman's male and female descendants than ever
obtained in Germany. Women obviously could inherit a right to the family's
dignity, as is made explicit in the Arundell patent, but they could not pass
it on to their own children who belonged for this purpose uniquely &
entirely to their father's family, not to hers.
The war of the Austrian succession did not disturb this principle within the
empire. If proof of the patent's intention is required, look no further than
Count Thomas the Valiant's own descendants through female links - none of
these assumed the Arundell title while there was still a Holy Roman (or
Austrian) Empire to give it some cachet.
Peter Stewart
-
History Writer
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
John Steele Gordon wrote:
If agnatic was meant, Rudolph II should fire the lawyer who wrote
such
sloppy language. "Legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten
in
whatever generation" sounds pretty clear to me.
1) Because the concept of nobility on the continent was very
different from
the concept in Britain, we might be looking at this through
anglo-colored
glasses. Does anyone have any expertise in continental patents?
No need to fire the lawyer. You are looking at this through
anglo-colored glasses. The patent would have been perfectly understood
by any legal expert in the Holy Roman Empire and was not sloppy. While
the wording means something completely different in British law, but
this is not a British patent. Best Regards.
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Sir Thomas Arundell
Right. The Continental reader would have inferred agnatic.
Tony Hoskins
No need to fire the lawyer. You are looking at this through
anglo-colored glasses. The patent would have been perfectly
understood
by any legal expert in the Holy Roman Empire and was not sloppy.
While
the wording means something completely different in British law, but
this is not a British patent. Best Regards.
Tony Hoskins
"History Writer" <hbv2061@aol.com> 01/18/05 02:00PM
John Steele Gordon wrote:
If agnatic was meant, Rudolph II should fire the lawyer who wrote
such
sloppy language. "Legitimate descendants of either sex, and begotten
in
whatever generation" sounds pretty clear to me.
1) Because the concept of nobility on the continent was very
different from
the concept in Britain, we might be looking at this through
anglo-colored
glasses. Does anyone have any expertise in continental patents?
No need to fire the lawyer. You are looking at this through
anglo-colored glasses. The patent would have been perfectly
understood
by any legal expert in the Holy Roman Empire and was not sloppy.
While
the wording means something completely different in British law, but
this is not a British patent. Best Regards.