Gytha Clappa

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Celia Blay

Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 11 jan 2005 09:41:27

While doing local history research on a village in Berkshire England I was
not surprised
to find clues that the manor had been held by the children of Gytha,
daughter of
Osgood Clappa, by two different husbands, what was surprising is that she
appears
to have been married to both men at the same time. Please can someone tell
me
where I'm going wrong. The information I have is that Gytha married Tovi the
Proud
in 1042 ( The date is unlikely to be wrong as the twenty two year old king
died
following the wedding feast in suspicious circumstances) They had children,
Aethelstan, who squandered his inheritance, Esgar the Staller, unless he was
a
grandson; and perhaps Eadnoth the Staller, unless he got Tovi's land because
it went
with the job.

Gytha Clappa is also said to have married Ralph de Sudeley,(Ralph the Timid)
in 1042
at Toddington Gloucester and had children Ralph de Gaul and Harold.

Tovi last signed a charter in 1048. Ralph died 1057. Please can someone
explain?

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 11 jan 2005 10:04:59

In message of 11 Jan, "Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote:

While doing local history research on a village in Berkshire England
I was not surprised to find clues that the manor had been held by
the children of Gytha, daughter of Osgood Clappa, by two different
husbands, what was surprising is that she appears to have been
married to both men at the same time. Please can someone tell me where
I'm going wrong. The information I have is that Gytha married Tovi
the Proud in 1042 ( The date is unlikely to be wrong as the twenty
two year old king died following the wedding feast in suspicious
circumstances) They had children, Aethelstan, who squandered his
inheritance, Esgar the Staller, unless he was a grandson; and perhaps
Eadnoth the Staller, unless he got Tovi's land because it went
with the job.

Gytha Clappa is also said to have married Ralph de Sudeley,(Ralph the
Timid) in 1042 at Toddington Gloucester and had children Ralph de
Gaul and Harold.

Tovi last signed a charter in 1048. Ralph died 1057. Please can
someone explain?

Where did you get all this intriguing information from? And where did
they get it from?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Peter Stewart

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jan 2005 10:46:57

"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cs03g1$l21$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
While doing local history research on a village in Berkshire England I was
not surprised to find clues that the manor had been held by the children
of Gytha, daughter of Osgood Clappa, by two different husbands, what
was surprising is that she appears to have been married to both men at
the same time. Please can someone tell me where I'm going wrong. The
information I have is that Gytha married Tovi the Proud in 1042 ( The
date is unlikely to be wrong as the twenty two year old king died
following the wedding feast in suspicious circumstances) They had
children, Aethelstan, who squandered his inheritance, Esgar the Staller,
unless he was a grandson; and perhaps Eadnoth the Staller, unless he
got Tovi's land because it went with the job.

Gytha Clappa is also said to have married Ralph de Sudeley,(Ralph the
Timid) in 1042 at Toddington Gloucester and had children Ralph de
Gaul and Harold.

Tovi last signed a charter in 1048. Ralph died 1057. Please can someone
explain?

The obvious explanation is that Gytha was married to Ralph between 1048 and
1057. Their son Harold de Sudeley, lord of Ewyas, was still a minor in 1066.
Since Ralph's parents were probably married ca 1024, he as a younger son
could hardly have been old enough to have had a wife in 1042.

It is not certain that his Gytha was the same as the daughter of Osgod Clapa
& wife of the king's staller Tovi the Proud. Ann WIlliams in 'The King's
Nephew: the Family and Career of Ralph, Earl of Hereford', _Studies in
Medieval History Presented to R Allen Brown_, edited by Christopher
Harper-Bill & others (Woodbridge, 1989) says that this identification of
Ralph's wife was proposed by Freeman, adding "There is little evidence,
however, to support the hypothesis apart from the coincidence of the name"
(p. 335). She made out what she described (p. 336) as a "much firmer
connection" to a rich thegn named Burgraed.

Peter Stewart

Celia Blay

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 11 jan 2005 22:50:47

"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org> wrote in message
news:504b802b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
Where did you get all this intriguing information from? And where did
they get it from?

Harthacnut dying comes from the A/S Chronicles,CD&E for 1042 'Here
Harthacnut died as he stood at his drink,and he suddenly fell to the
earth with an awful convulsion; and those who were close by took hold
of him, and he spoke no word afterwards, and he passed away on 8th
June.'

Harthacnut was about as popular as you would expect a king to be who
had greatly increased taxes and exhumed his brother before throwing the
body into the mud of the Thames. No one questioned his death too
closely. The detail that he was toasting the happy couple at Tovi the
Proud's
wedding feast at Osgood Clappa's palace in Lambeth comes from Florence.

I'm ashamed to say that the details about Ralph were picked up from a
number of internet geneology sites when I was curious about field names in
the village 'Mantes' and 'Le Gauls' and wondered if there was a connection
with the owners Esgar the Staller or Geoffrey de Mandeville who followed
him, or if there was a connection with Edith, sister of Edward the
Confessor who was buried a few miles away in Hurley Priory.

Celia Blay

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 11 jan 2005 23:01:02

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote ...
"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cs03g1$l21$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...

The obvious explanation is that Gytha was married to Ralph between 1048
and 1057. Their son Harold de Sudeley, lord of Ewyas, was still a minor in
1066. Since Ralph's parents were probably married ca 1024, he as a younger
son could hardly have been old enough to have had a wife in 1042.

It is not certain that his Gytha was the same as the daughter of Osgod
Clapa & wife of the king's staller Tovi the Proud. Ann WIlliams in 'The
King's Nephew: the Family and Career of Ralph, Earl of Hereford', _Studies
in Medieval History Presented to R Allen Brown_, edited by Christopher
Harper-Bill & others (Woodbridge, 1989) says that this identification of
Ralph's wife was proposed by Freeman, adding "There is little evidence,
however, to support the hypothesis apart from the coincidence of the name"
(p. 335). She made out what she described (p. 336) as a "much firmer
connection" to a rich thegn named Burgraed.

Many thanks, it makes sense that Countess Gytha was a different woman
as I suspect that some of the Tovis TRE in the Domesday Book are Tovi the
Proud by the descent of the land, perhaps he didn't sign after 1048 because
he was out of favour.

Peter Stewart

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 jan 2005 03:04:19

"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cs1ibd$c62$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote ...
"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cs03g1$l21$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...

The obvious explanation is that Gytha was married to Ralph between 1048
and 1057. Their son Harold de Sudeley, lord of Ewyas, was still a minor
in 1066. Since Ralph's parents were probably married ca 1024, he as a
younger son could hardly have been old enough to have had a wife in 1042.

It is not certain that his Gytha was the same as the daughter of Osgod
Clapa & wife of the king's staller Tovi the Proud. Ann WIlliams in 'The
King's Nephew: the Family and Career of Ralph, Earl of Hereford',
_Studies in Medieval History Presented to R Allen Brown_, edited by
Christopher Harper-Bill & others (Woodbridge, 1989) says that this
identification of Ralph's wife was proposed by Freeman, adding "There is
little evidence, however, to support the hypothesis apart from the
coincidence of the name" (p. 335). She made out what she described (p.
336) as a "much firmer connection" to a rich thegn named Burgraed.

Many thanks, it makes sense that Countess Gytha was a different woman
as I suspect that some of the Tovis TRE in the Domesday Book are Tovi the
Proud by the descent of the land, perhaps he didn't sign after 1048
because
he was out of favour.

According to Ann WIlliams (p. 335) Tovi the Proud "is last heard of in
1042/3", citing a reference for him at that time as executor of a will (note
51) - what source is given for his occurring as late as 1048?

Williams adds (note 51) "Since Tovi's grandson, Esgar, was of full age in
1066, Tovi must have been an old man at the time of his marriage to Osgod's
daughter in 1042, and she cannot have been his first wife, or the mother of
his son Athelstan".

Peter Stewart

Celia Blay

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 12 jan 2005 11:16:45

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DA%Ed.114802$K7.98200@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
According to Ann WIlliams (p. 335) Tovi the Proud "is last heard of in
1042/3", citing a reference for him at that time as executor of a will
(note 51) - what source is given for his occurring as late as 1048?

Williams adds (note 51) "Since Tovi's grandson, Esgar, was of full age in
1066, Tovi must have been an old man at the time of his marriage to
Osgod's daughter in 1042, and she cannot have been his first wife, or the
mother of his son Athelstan".
Apologies for this reply being in instalments and from memory, pressure of

work.
Geology points to Tovi being one of history's most successful confidence
tricksters
and this pushes his death beyond1042/3
On his way to Hastings Harold stopped off to pray at Tovi's foundation
of Waltham
Holy Cross. It was said that the figure of Christ on the cross bowed its
head in sorrow
at events to come. Harold's battle cry was 'Holy Cross !'
The cross existed, Harold is even said to have taken it to Hastings.
For centuries our area was the home of the royal goldsmiths who made
not only crowns and regalia but also church adornments embroidery etc.
This can be shown to have started by the 7th c and probably went back much
earlier.
Tovi was given land a few miles from the gold workshops as a reward for
his
services to Canute and some time later, either through his marriage or some
other means secured land next to the workshops at White Waltham.
Gytha was related to Edward the Confessor so the death of the king at
the
wedding feast in circumstances not inconsistant with poisoning might well
have
pointed the finger of suspicion at Gytha and Tovi. Tovi was put beyond
suspicion
when God granted him a miracle (or so we are led to believe)
The story goes that three times a smith on Tovi's estate near Montacute
in Somerset had a dream that if he were to go to a certain hill and dig he
would find a
great treasure. (every aspect of this story has echoes in our areas
folklore)
On digging a precious Gospel Book and a marvellous life sized cross made out
of
flint were found. With elaborate ceremony Tovi got together 12 white and
twelve red
oxen to take the find to the nearest abbey, Glastonbury, about 15 miles
away.
The usual charade follows with the oxen refusing to go to any abbey until
Tovi
says ';'blow this I'm off back to Essex (the other side of the country) to
go hunting.
The oxen then move and this is taken as a sign so they drag the relcs for
miles to where
Tovi is building a new hunting lodge in the Viking style (recently
excavated)
Here Tovi builds a modest religious foundation out of wood to house the
cross.
He has it covered with precious metals and Gytha gives her Jewelery to adorn
it.
After being cured of paralysis or some such while praying there Harold
builds a more
elaborate building..
At some time land in our area is used to endow Waltham Holy Cross.
The tale stinks of being an elaborate hoax and at least some of it must
have
occured after Tovi's marriage.
Our area has a chalk subsoil, it has been used for flint mining since
prehistoric times.
We not only had the technology to use this most unlikely of materials we
also had the
experience. The nearest thing to the description of the cross is one of
slightly earlier
in the wall of Romsey Abbey which charters suggest was using the Waltham
workshops
at the time.
The goldsmith at the time of the finding of the Holy Cross was
Cypping, father of
the goldsmiths Alwine and Aethelweard. For generations the goldsmiths had
been ahead
of the game because they were quietly manipulating it. Cypping was still
alive at the time
of the great survey though an old man and his web of influence was immense,
there was
hardly an important bishop in the land that he wasn't either related to or
closely
connected with,. many had purchased their bishoprics. He was also related to
Edward the Confessor
I wish I knew how.
probably through Eadric Streona's marriage to his half sister Edith as
Eadric's brother's
family had previously owned the gold workshops
I'll try and find the '48 reference..

Celia Blay

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 12 jan 2005 19:48:32

"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote ...
I'll try and find the '48 reference..

I've found the charter, its S 1017, King Edward to Tofig comes land at

Berghe
It's accepted as genuine and I can't see any other 'Tovi' of that time being
mistakenly called 'comes' The archive is Burton which I think was founded
by Wulfric Spot, relative of the goldsmiths who held land about 3 miles away
from the gold workshops and who had one of the goldsmiths look after
his land during a period when it was confiscated. Another interesting
charter , though not so certain is,. S 1025 dated 1054 but probably copied
from a charter of around 1049. It concerns land at Abingdon another
foundation endowed by the goldsmiths. Domesday Book shows this and the
surrounding land held TRE by the usual suspects, Eadnoth, Leofwine the
goldsmith, Cypping's grandson, and Alwine his son.

On this charters witness list a 'Tofig minister' occurs beneath Brihtric.
Brihtric was the son of Eadric Streona's nephew Aelfgar who had purchased
land at Wealtham that contained the gold workshops in 1007. He paid an
extortionate price.

I will see if I can find Tovi closer to 1066.

Gjest

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jan 2005 23:02:01

Celia Blay wrote:
"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote ...
I'll try and find the '48 reference..

I've found the charter, its S 1017, King Edward to Tofig comes land
at
Berghe
It's accepted as genuine and I can't see any other 'Tovi' of that
time being
mistakenly called 'comes' The archive is Burton which I think was
founded
by Wulfric Spot, relative of the goldsmiths who held land about 3
miles away
from the gold workshops and who had one of the goldsmiths look after
his land during a period when it was confiscated. Another interesting
charter , though not so certain is,. S 1025 dated 1054 but probably
copied
from a charter of around 1049. It concerns land at Abingdon another
foundation endowed by the goldsmiths. Domesday Book shows this and
the
surrounding land held TRE by the usual suspects, Eadnoth, Leofwine
the
goldsmith, Cypping's grandson, and Alwine his son.

On this charters witness list a 'Tofig minister' occurs beneath
Brihtric.
Brihtric was the son of Eadric Streona's nephew Aelfgar who had
purchased
land at Wealtham that contained the gold workshops in 1007. He paid
an
extortionate price.

I will see if I can find Tovi closer to 1066.

Just an aside, but I believe I found both Tovi and Clapp as "comitis"
in a royal charter of King Canute. It's S 982 and available in full
from Anglo-Saxons.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 13 jan 2005 07:50:56

"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cs3re1$5lf$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
"Celia Blay" <c-a-blay@hotmail.com> wrote ...
I'll try and find the '48 reference..

I've found the charter, its S 1017, King Edward to Tofig comes land at
Berghe
It's accepted as genuine and I can't see any other 'Tovi' of that time
being
mistakenly called 'comes' The archive is Burton which I think was founded
by Wulfric Spot, relative of the goldsmiths who held land about 3 miles
away
from the gold workshops and who had one of the goldsmiths look after
his land during a period when it was confiscated. Another interesting
charter , though not so certain is,. S 1025 dated 1054 but probably copied
from a charter of around 1049. It concerns land at Abingdon another
foundation endowed by the goldsmiths. Domesday Book shows this and the
surrounding land held TRE by the usual suspects, Eadnoth, Leofwine the
goldsmith, Cypping's grandson, and Alwine his son.

On this charters witness list a 'Tofig minister' occurs beneath Brihtric.
Brihtric was the son of Eadric Streona's nephew Aelfgar who had purchased
land at Wealtham that contained the gold workshops in 1007. He paid an
extortionate price.

I will see if I can find Tovi closer to 1066.

Thanks Celia - the charter of 1048 is online at

http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=seek&query=S+1017

According to this webpage, Frank Barlow in _Edward the Confessor_ (Berkeley,
1970) p. 332, considered that the beneficiary "is probably a thegn". Without
checking, this doesn't suggest that he would have identified "Touig" as Tovi
the Proud. It's probably worth checking Peter Clarke's _The English Nobility
under Edward the Confessor_ (Oxford, 1994), but I can't help as I don't have
access to this at present.

Peter Stewart

Celia Blay

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Celia Blay » 13 jan 2005 11:25:24

<Nichol_storm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105567321.082461.50790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Just an aside, but I believe I found both Tovi and Clapp as "comitis"
in a royal charter of King Canute. It's S 982 and available in full
from Anglo-Saxons.net

Thanks, I will look it up.
I have flicked through the Domesday Book looking at the Tovis
( Oh for a people index in my copy)
I am convinced that Tovi the Proud lived long enough to be
recorded as the TRE holder in many places.
Take for example Hampshire, particularly the New Forest area,
This is an area where Cypping held most of his land.
A Tovi is recorded in 10 estates.that are near Cypping or other
known goldsmiths. The arguement against this being Tovi the Proud
is Knighton where Tovi is recorded as holding half a virgate as a gift
from the king after Bondi, presumably 'Bondi the Smith' foster son
of one of the goldsmiths.
In Berkshire, my home area,there can be little doubt that Tovi the
Proud held Bray TRE. It is held by Alwine son of Cypping.
Although not recorded DB, among around 500 (!) charters for
Geoffrey de Mandeville's foundation of Hurley Priory that are held
by Westminster is evidence that part of this land passed to Waltham
Holy Cross and part was given to Hurley by Geoffrey who was
Esgar the Stallers antecessor in our area.
The part of Reading that Cnut gave to Tovi is shown in the DB
as being owned by Hearding, son of Eadnoth the Sta;ller in
Somerset where we have the story of the Holy Cross,Hearding
son of Eadnoth holds Lopen, Tovi held it TRE. A further 3 entries
give the same pattern
Where is the evidence that Tovi died in the 1040's ?
Where does the suggestion come from that Esgar was grandson
rather than son of Tovi ?.

Peter Stewart

Re: Gytha Clappa

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 13 jan 2005 12:32:34

<Nichol_storm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105567321.082461.50790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Just an aside, but I believe I found both Tovi and Clapp as "comitis"
in a royal charter of King Canute. It's S 982 and available in full
from Anglo-Saxons.net

The list in Sawyer 982 reads "Signum Sewardi comitis, Ansgoth, Clapp, Stigan
capellanus, Etwolth, Herman, Alwinesmelt, Spiritus, Osbert, Acchiersum,
Bricsih, Geron, Aizor, Turchil, Swen, Theustul, Eusten, Tovi, Turgil" - so
Siward is the only one titled earl here, i.e. the word "comitis" is genitive
singular, for the attestation "of Earl Seward", and not an odd spelling of
nominative plural "comites" to include the men listed after.

Peter Stewart

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