Francisco Tavares de Almeida was kind enough to send
me several detailed messages on the matter; I'm going
to edit them and post them here.
Sorry, they are in Portuguese.
Main tenets:
- There was a place near Coimbra called Bolon in the
early 10th century. The family name [de] Bulhões is
very likely a toponym, from there or from
similar-named places in Portugal.
- We should look for more detailed documentation on
the Saint's mother, to ascertain whether she was in
fact a Taveira/Baião or not.
fa
PS: Of course the kinship to Godefroy de Bouillon
seems to be a myth, despite the fact that a d'Arschoet
was at the conquest of Lisbon in 1147 with several
knights from his homeland, which might seem to lend
plausibility to the Bouillon connection.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Esteban
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
Thanks both Franciscos (Doria & Tavares) for your posts.
Just one thing. As late as 1580, Martín was considered a "French"
(i.e. foreign) name by the Spaniards, probably the same happened in
Portugal. If in the 12th century Martim was the name of St Anthony's
father, probably he was from a French family.
Regards,
Esteban
Just one thing. As late as 1580, Martín was considered a "French"
(i.e. foreign) name by the Spaniards, probably the same happened in
Portugal. If in the 12th century Martim was the name of St Anthony's
father, probably he was from a French family.
Regards,
Esteban
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
As for your remarks on Martín/Martim, what I can say
is that the name is well-attested (as you know) in
Portuguese and Leonese families in the mid to late
11th century and from then on.
You find it in the Ribadouro clan (according to
Almeida Fernandes in a brilliant analysis that I
accept a branch of the Counts of Coimbra) and in the
Flagínez descent, also strictly leonese.
fa
--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
is that the name is well-attested (as you know) in
Portuguese and Leonese families in the mid to late
11th century and from then on.
You find it in the Ribadouro clan (according to
Almeida Fernandes in a brilliant analysis that I
accept a branch of the Counts of Coimbra) and in the
Flagínez descent, also strictly leonese.
fa
--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
Thanks both Franciscos (Doria & Tavares) for your
posts.
Just one thing. As late as 1580, Martín was
considered a "French"
(i.e. foreign) name by the Spaniards, probably the
same happened in
Portugal. If in the 12th century Martim was the name
of St Anthony's
father, probably he was from a French family.
Regards,
Esteban
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
-
Esteban
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
As usual you're right. I myself descend from the Martínez of the
mountains of northern León.
The date 1580 refers to the election of the patron saint of Buenos
Aires. According to what was considered a legend but now it's well
attested, the "vecinos" (~ neighbours) cannot came to terms in order to
have one who was undisputable. So they have the idea to make somekind
of lottery with all the saints. Twice was St Martin rejected until a
third time they have to accept it as God's will. The reason for
rejection was that he was a "foreign" saint with a "foreign" name.
Best,
Esteban
mountains of northern León.
The date 1580 refers to the election of the patron saint of Buenos
Aires. According to what was considered a legend but now it's well
attested, the "vecinos" (~ neighbours) cannot came to terms in order to
have one who was undisputable. So they have the idea to make somekind
of lottery with all the saints. Twice was St Martin rejected until a
third time they have to accept it as God's will. The reason for
rejection was that he was a "foreign" saint with a "foreign" name.
Best,
Esteban
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
Dear Esteban,
Nice tale. It is a pity I know so little about the
early settlers in Argentina - even if my wife's best
known direct ancestor Pero do Campo Tourinho is said
to have been at the Rio de la Plata, Rio da Prata as
we say, around 1520.
Martinus should be, I guess, a rather common name, as
its Latin derivation is, I think, quite obvious; so,
it must go far in the past. It is repeated from the
10th century to the 16th century in the agnatic line
of the Vasconcellos from Madeira, from Osorio
Martínez, likely ancestor of the family, to the
several Martim Mendes de Vasconcellos among the early
colonists in that island.
Best, chico
--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Nice tale. It is a pity I know so little about the
early settlers in Argentina - even if my wife's best
known direct ancestor Pero do Campo Tourinho is said
to have been at the Rio de la Plata, Rio da Prata as
we say, around 1520.
Martinus should be, I guess, a rather common name, as
its Latin derivation is, I think, quite obvious; so,
it must go far in the past. It is repeated from the
10th century to the 16th century in the agnatic line
of the Vasconcellos from Madeira, from Osorio
Martínez, likely ancestor of the family, to the
several Martim Mendes de Vasconcellos among the early
colonists in that island.
Best, chico
--- Esteban <fliatrento@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
As usual you're right. I myself descend from the
Martínez of the
mountains of northern León.
The date 1580 refers to the election of the patron
saint of Buenos
Aires. According to what was considered a legend but
now it's well
attested, the "vecinos" (~ neighbours) cannot came
to terms in order to
have one who was undisputable. So they have the idea
to make somekind
of lottery with all the saints. Twice was St Martin
rejected until a
third time they have to accept it as God's will. The
reason for
rejection was that he was a "foreign" saint with a
"foreign" name.
Best,
Esteban
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
In which of his writings did he suggest this?
taf
You find it in the Ribadouro clan (according to
Almeida Fernandes in a brilliant analysis that I
accept a branch of the Counts of Coimbra) and in the
In which of his writings did he suggest this?
taf
-
Francisco Antonio Doria
Re: St Anthony (Santo Antonio), Bulhões / Almeida Fernandes
I believe it is in the essays on the origins of the
five clans. Manuel Soveral and I had a long discussion
on that about one year ago. Mattoso notes (without
accepting it) the suggestion by Almeida Fernandes.
I don't exactly recall all details, but the thing is
pretty consistent, and relies on a toponym near Porto
(Oporto) that might have originated the name `Gasco.'
I take it as a very good conjecture.
It is very much like the origin for Bulhões: might
originate in a place near Coimbra - originally Bolon.
I must collect my recent exchanges on that with a most
kind friend and post them here. (I've been very busy
of late.)
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
five clans. Manuel Soveral and I had a long discussion
on that about one year ago. Mattoso notes (without
accepting it) the suggestion by Almeida Fernandes.
I don't exactly recall all details, but the thing is
pretty consistent, and relies on a toponym near Porto
(Oporto) that might have originated the name `Gasco.'
I take it as a very good conjecture.
It is very much like the origin for Bulhões: might
originate in a place near Coimbra - originally Bolon.
I must collect my recent exchanges on that with a most
kind friend and post them here. (I've been very busy
of late.)
fa
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
You find it in the Ribadouro clan (according to
Almeida Fernandes in a brilliant analysis that I
accept a branch of the Counts of Coimbra) and in
the
In which of his writings did he suggest this?
taf
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo