Umberto III, Count of Savoy

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Leo van de Pas

Umberto III, Count of Savoy

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 jan 2005 22:01:01

Umberto III was only 12 years old when his father died. At about 15 he married Faydiva (origins unknown) and about three years later Faydiva died.

About 1155 he married Gertrud of Flanders but they divorced before 1162. Does anyone know why they divorced?

In 1164 he married the also divorced Klementia von Zähringen. ES Volume II gives them three daughters, two married to the same Azzo VI d'Este, but when you go to ES I.1 Tafel 31 Azzo VI has three wives but only one is a Savoy.

Then he married Beatrice de Macon by whom he fathered his son and heir.

Can anyone give biographical details about this Thomas III ?

Umberto III father of Thomas I father of Beatrice de Savoy mother of Eleonore de Provence mother of Edward I, King of England and so is an ancestor of many gateway ancestors.
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Peter Stewart

Re: Umberto III, Count of Savoy

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 jan 2005 05:42:42

Comments interspersed:

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:001401c4f10d$416f5260$c3b4fea9@email...
Umberto III was only 12 years old when his father died. At about 15
he married Faydiva (origins unknown) and about three years later Faydiva
died.

Faydiva's family is not recorded, as Leo says, but due to the unusual name
they shared as well as fitting chronology she is usually supposed to have
been daughter of Faydiva (or Fraisseta), the wife of Alphons Jourdain, count
of Toulouse.

About 1155 he married Gertrud of Flanders but they divorced before 1162.
Does anyone know why they divorced?

No reason is given - all we know is that Gertrud was confined by Umberto,
and rescued by a cleric from Flanders, Robert, provost of Arie, who profited
from his efforts by the high regard of her brother & later became
bishop-elect of Cambrai (he was murdered at the behest of Jacques, seigneur
of Avesnes, near Condé on 4 October 1174, still unconsecrated - no good deed
went unpunished in the 12th century).

However, there could be a clue in this to the date of her separation, as we
are told that she was restored to her brother Philippe despite the fact that
their father Thierry d'Alsace was living until January 1168, well after
Gertrud's second marriage. Possibly she came back from Savoy during one of
Thierry's absences on crusade, when Philippe was ruling Flanders in his
stead. The likeliest time is between 13 May 1157, when he left for
Palestine, and 16 August 1159, when he returned.

In 1164 he married the also divorced Klementia von Zähringen. ES Volume
II gives them three daughters, two married to the same Azzo VI d'Este, but
when you go to ES I.1 Tafel 31 Azzo VI has three wives but only one is a
Savoy.

This doubling of Azzo VI's second wife into two sisters from Savoy is an
error. Umberto and Klementia had only two daughters, made explicit in his
own agreement for the marriage of the elder - she, named Alicia (Aalis), was
betrothed 1173 to John Lackland, later king of England, but she was
evidently dead by June 1178 when Umberto was just as definitely said to have
only one daughter when he was reconciled to St Anthelm, bishop of Belley on
the latter's deathbed. The name of this girl is unknown, but later evidence
suggests that Azzo VI's Savoyard wife was named Sophia, like one of
Klementia's great-great-grandmothers. She is not named in any contemporary
document, and her family connection is only known from the epitaph of her
daughter Beatrice. This is given in vol I of Ludovico Antonio Muratori's
_Delle antichità Estensi ed Italiane_, 2 vols (Modena, 1717-1740), and for
some unexplained reason Muratori referred to the lady as Eleanor, causing
the confusion still found in ES II.

Then he married Beatrice de Macon by whom he fathered his son and heir.

Can anyone give biographical details about this Thomas III ?

He wasn't Thomas 'III' of Savoy, being the first of that name - apparently
this was given to him in honour of St Thomas Becket, whose cult was raging
at the time of his birth. Thomas III was his grandson (died 1282).

Thomas I was born soon after St Anthelm died on 26 June 1178 - the birthdate
sometimes given (20 May 1177) is wrong. We know that St Anthelm blessed
Umberto and his "son" three times, despite being reminded that the count had
only a sole daughter, and it was taken as a saintly prophesy when Thomas was
born not long afterwards. He was evidently acting as count, as if he was
already of age, by early August 1191, which has been taken to indicate that
he must have been at least 14 years old by then & consequently born by
August 1177. However, there had been a series of minorities in the line of
counts of Savoy, including the father and gradfather of Thomas, and his
coming of age may well have been brought forward from experience of the
activities of regents.

He became known as "Thomas the Ghibelline" from his career as imperial vicar
of Lombardy. He used this position to restore the power that had waned under
his father, and to extend his territories. His sons, & daughters through
marriage, spread the family's prestige. Some genealogies give him several
wives, but there is clear evidence of only one, named Margaret (and also
identified as N, perhaps for Nicola if not a mistake). There was no other
wife named Beatrix, but this was Margaret's mother's name and has also been
applied to her.

From this generation onwards the genealogy & chronology are better
established. However, one odd interpretation keeps cropping up:

The wife of Thomas I's eldest son & heir, Count Amadeo IV of Savoy, was
named Anne and has also become known as Margaret - possibly by confusion
with her mother-in-law mentioned above, who lived on throughout her son's
reign as count.

Patrick Van Kerrebrouck [in _Les Capétiens 987-1328_ (Villeneuve d'Ascq
(2000) p. 573] makes Anne (calling her Marguerite) unequivocally a daughter
of Duke Hugo III of Burgundy & Beatrix, countess of Albon, noting that
Ernest Petit didn't include her in his history of the dukes but without
giving any authority for the claimed relationship - directly or otherwise it
is derived, along with the name Marguerite, from _Histoire de Dauphiné et
des princes qui ont porté le nom de Dauphins_ by Jean-Pierre Moret de
Bourchenu, marquis de Valbonnais (Geneva, 1722). However, chronology is
against this filiation, as well as an absence of medieval evidence - Duke
Hugo III's son Guigo VI André, count of Albon, was born in 1184, and it is
unlikely that he had a full sister as young as Countess Anne of Savoy who
was contracted to marry around two years after his own daughter (a countess
of Montfort). In the chronicle of Hautecombe abbey, compiled ca 1400, Anne
was said to be daughter of a count of Albon, but her father is not named. It
is unlikely that earlier sources (now lost) pointed to a duke of Burgundy
under this label, just because he held the lesser title in right of his
wife, and the reference was more probably to Guigo VI André himself. He
married first in 1202 and could well have been Anne's father.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Umberto III, Count of Savoy

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 jan 2005 06:01:43

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6l3Dd.106004$K7.13928@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

<snip>

Patrick Van Kerrebrouck [in _Les Capétiens 987-1328_ (Villeneuve d'Ascq
(2000) p. 573] makes Anne (calling her Marguerite) unequivocally a
daughter of Duke Hugo III of Burgundy & Beatrix, countess of Albon, noting
that Ernest Petit didn't include her in his history of the dukes but
without giving any authority for the claimed relationship - directly or
otherwise it is derived, along with the name Marguerite, from _Histoire de
Dauphiné et des princes qui ont porté le nom de Dauphins_ by Jean-Pierre
Moret de Bourchenu, marquis de Valbonnais (Geneva, 1722). However,
chronology is against this filiation, as well as an absence of medieval
evidence - Duke Hugo III's son Guigo VI André, count of Albon, was born in
1184, and it is unlikely that he had a full sister as young as Countess
Anne of Savoy who was contracted to marry around two years after his own
daughter (a countess of Montfort). In the chronicle of Hautecombe abbey,
compiled ca 1400, Anne was said to be daughter of a count of Albon, but
her father is not named. It is unlikely that earlier sources (now lost)
pointed to a duke of Burgundy under this label, just because he held the
lesser title in right of his wife, and the reference was more probably to
Guigo VI André himself. He married first in 1202 and could well have been
Anne's father.

I should have written: "the reference, if not simply mistaken, was more
probably to Guigo VI André himself".

Umberto III's mother was Majes (or Mathilde) of Albon, so that Amadeo IV
would have been third cousin to his wife Anne if her parentage was as Van
Kerrebrouck represented, or third cousin once removed if she was
granddaughter instead of daughter to Hugo III of Burgundy & Beatrix 'la
Grande' of Albon. Neither relationship is impossible, of course, but we have
no direct evidence of the couple's consanguinity and only a generally
unreliable late compilation from Hautecombe abbey gives the link in the
first place.

Peter Stewart

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