My Merovingian line

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bartstam@juno.com

My Merovingian line

Legg inn av bartstam@juno.com » 02 jan 2005 21:41:01

I am new to the GEN-MEDIEVAL site and would appreciate your help in establishing my line which currently I have as follows:
- Clovis b. ca. 466, d. 511
- Childebert b. ca. 496, d. 558
- Sigebert b. ca. 450?, d. 509
- Cloderic b. ca. 480?, d. 509
- Munderic b. ca. 500?, d. 532
- Bodegisel I b. ca. 522, d. 581
- Bodegisel II b. ca. 555, d. 589
- St. Arnwulf b. 582, d. 640
- Adelgisel b. 602, d. 685
- Pepin II of Heristal b. ca. 635, d. 714
- Charles Martel b. 686, d. 741.

My question relates to the approximate birthdates for Sigebert, Cloderic & Munderic. Obviously there weren't 3 generations squeezed in between Childebert (b. ca. 496) and Bodegisel I (b. ca. 522).

My main source of data has been David H. Kelley, "A New Consideration of the Carolingians" NEH&GR (1947), 101:109-112. I see that he has Clovis flourishing in 420 and Childebert flourishing in 450 (as did Moriarty in his 1944 NEH&GR article on the same subject). I don't understand the basis for these early dates.

My GEDCOM can be found at <http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=bartstam>.

Thank you,

Bill Barton bartstam@juno.com

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Paul K Davis

RE: My Merovingian line

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 02 jan 2005 23:21:01

I believe your problem is in the caption of your e-mail. You call it "My
Merovingian line", but none of the people you list were Merovingians. You
have copied the approximate birth and death dates of a Clovis who actually
was a Merovingian onto a Clovis who was not.

There are also some uncertainties in this line. The father of St. Arnulf
is not definitely known, though Bodegisel is a reasonable guess. There
seems to be uncertainty whether Bodegisel II was son or nephew of Bodegisel
I, but either way leads to Munderic. There may have been more than one
Muderic, with uncertainty which one belongs here. I don't know how well
established it is that Childebert's father was named Clovis.

I do know that Sigebert of your list was a contemporary of the Clovis who
was a Merovingian, and brought the Merovingians to prominence. According
to Gregory of Tours (as I recall) he goaded Sigebert into murdering his
father, and then had him arrested and occupied his realm.

Others may have further, or more accurate, comments.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: bartstam@juno.com <bartstam@juno.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 1/2/2005 12:39:21 PM
Subject: My Merovingian line


I am new to the GEN-MEDIEVAL site and would appreciate your help in
establishing my line which currently I have as follows:
- Clovis b. ca. 466, d. 511
- Childebert b. ca. 496, d. 558
- Sigebert b. ca. 450?, d. 509
- Cloderic b. ca. 480?, d. 509
- Munderic b. ca. 500?, d. 532
- Bodegisel I b. ca. 522, d. 581
- Bodegisel II b. ca. 555, d. 589
- St. Arnwulf b. 582, d. 640
- Adelgisel b. 602, d. 685
- Pepin II of Heristal b. ca. 635, d. 714
- Charles Martel b. 686, d. 741.

My question relates to the approximate birthdates for Sigebert, Cloderic
& Munderic. Obviously there weren't 3 generations squeezed in between

Childebert (b. ca. 496) and Bodegisel I (b. ca. 522).
My main source of data has been David H. Kelley, "A New Consideration of
the Carolingians" NEH&GR (1947), 101:109-112. I see that he has Clovis

flourishing in 420 and Childebert flourishing in 450 (as did Moriarty in
his 1944 NEH&GR article on the same subject). I don't understand the basis
for these early dates.
My GEDCOM can be found at
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... b=bartstam>.

Thank you,

Bill Barton bartstam@juno.com

________________________________________________________________
Juno Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.juno.com/give

Don Stone

Re: My Merovingian line

Legg inn av Don Stone » 02 jan 2005 23:53:54

bartstam@juno.com wrote:

I am new to the GEN-MEDIEVAL site and would appreciate your help in
establishing my line which currently I have as follows:
- Clovis b. ca.466, d. 511
- Childebert b. ca. 496, d. 558
- Sigebert b. ca. 450?, d. 509
- Cloderic b. ca. 480?, d. 509
- Munderic b. ca. 500?, d. 532
- Bodegisel I b. ca. 522, d. 581
- Bodegisel II b. ca. 555, d. 589
- St. Arnwulf b. 582, d. 640
- Adelgisel b. 602, d. 685
- Pepin II of Heristal b. ca. 635, d. 714
- Charles Martel b. 686, d. 741.

My question relates to the approximate birthdates for Sigebert, Cloderic
& Munderic. Obviously there weren't 3 generations squeezed in between
Childebert (b. ca. 496) and Bodegisel I (b. ca. 522).

My main source of data has been David H. Kelley, "A New Consideration of
the Carolingians" NEH&GR (1947), 101:109-112. I see that he has Clovis
flourishing in 420 and Childebert flourishing in 450 (as did Moriarty in
his 1944 NEH&GR article on the same subject). I don't understand the
basis for these early dates.

This article was published when Prof. Kelley was 23 years old; he has
changed his mind about various aspects of the Carolingian pedigree since
then.

Last spring there was a thread in this group about Munderic,
including the following from Marshall Kirk:
The line prior to Sigebert has no historical warrant. Moriarty adapted it
from a much earlier French article (in the *Revue Mabillon*?), and
published it in English. The French writer, using a very fine-spun
analysis, teased it out of late, and quite garbled, hagiography. I'd
guess that Moriarty either couldn't read simple French, or -- more
likely, I think -- was relying on a defective memory (for which I'm in no
position to fault him!), since he gives as father and son, in his
article, two individuals that the *original* article clearly asserted --
twice -- were brothers.

I've heard of no useful evidence as to the identities and pedigree of the
kings of the Riparian Franks prior to Sigebert, tho' I'd be interested
in learning of any.

As for the line from Sigebert downward, Settipani has published some good
analysis.

Marshall is referring primarily (I assume) to Settipani's paper in
_Onomastique and Parente_; Settipani made these comments in 2001:
Arnulf is a son of Bodogisel according to texts of 9th c. The Vita
Gundulfi adds that he was the nephew of Gundulf, son of Munderic. This
Gundulf, (great-)uncle of Arnulf, could be the nephew of a first Gundulf,
son of Artemia, sister of Sacerdos, bishop of Lyons. For the value of
these late texts and the confirmations they have in reliable sources, see
now my paper in ' Onomastique and Parente ', p. 185-229.
These relationships are diagrammed on p. 229, Tableau 10: Conclusion: Les

ancêtres de Arnulf. Note that in Arnulf's male-line ancestry most of the
connections are specified with dashed rather than solid lines. These are
the successive generations in this table:
- Chloderic
- Munderic
- Mummolinus
- Bodegisel
- St. Arnulf
- Ansegisel
- Pippin

On 28 April 2004 I posted some comments of Prof. Kelley to GEN-MEDIEVAL.
(They may not have been gated to soc.genealogy.medieval; I can't find them
in the archive at Google.) The comments began:
The _Vita Gundulfi_ (Life of St. Gundulf) supplies the following
information: Arnulf was a son of Bodegisel and was a _nepos_ of Gundulf,
who was a son of Munderic (killed young), who was a son of Childeric the
Parricide (also killed young). (Note: it is reasonable to identify this
Childeric with the Chloderic the Parricide mentioned by Gregory of Tours.
Gregory gives Chloderic's father as Sigebert, King of Cologne, and says
that this Sigebert was a relative of the Merovingians. He was probably
descended from the earlier [Merovingian] kings of Cologne.)

Kelley made the following comments about information from the _Vita
Gundulfi_ (VG):
Either you accept the VG as a valid and important historical source, or
you reject it. Many reject it, but Settipani and I accept it.
As outlined above, the VG says that Arnulf (identified by both Settipani
and myself as St. Arnulf, although he is not explicitly so identified by
the VG) was the son of Bodegisel and the _nepos_ of Gundulf. Now _nepos_
may mean either nephew (great-nephew) or grandson.
Kelley then went on to argue for the interpretation grandson, rather than

great-nephew. However, his opinion has since changed, based on further
study of the VG and the Bollandist commentary on it (Acta Sanctorum, Julii
Tomus Quartus, the volume covering 16 July). According to the Bollandists,
the author of St. Gundulf's biography closed it with the following words,
addressed to St. Arnulf: "Vitam et Acta habes, carissime praesul,
sanctissimi patrui tui etc.," i.e., "You have the Biography and the Acts,
dearest bishop, of your most holy uncle," etc. Since "patruus" means
paternal uncle, this argues for interpreting the later "nepos" as (great-)
nephew.

-- Don Stone

Matthew Rockefeller

Re: My Merovingian line

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 05 jan 2005 06:06:52

Here is what I have for the paternal ancestry of Charles Martel. It
comes mainly from the work of Settipani, but he attaches Munderic to
the lineage you provide, but I believe he was the Munderic, Bishop of
Arisitum, and not the son of Cloderic in your list. Some people list
Arnulf as the son of Arnold, but I have him listed as his son-in-law.

Munderic, Bishop of Arisitum (d after 578)
married
Arthemia, daughter of Sacerdos, Bishop of Lyons

Mummolin, Mayor of the Palace of Neustrie
married
a daughter of Maurilion and sister of Arnulf, Duke of Angouleme

Bodegisel II, Duke of Aquitaine, Ambassador to Byzantium (d 588)
married
Chrodoare, Abbess of Amay (d 634)

Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia (d August 16,
640)
married
Clothilde, daughter of Arnold, Bishop of Metz and Dode

Ansegisel, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia (d 685)
married
St. Begga (d 698), daughter of Pepin "of Landen", Mayor of the Palace
of Austrasia and Itta

Pepin "of Heristal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia and Neustrie (635
- December 16, 714)
married
Aupais

Charles "Martel", Duke of Franks, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia (689
- October 22, 741)

Matthew

Don Stone

Re: My Merovingian line

Legg inn av Don Stone » 05 jan 2005 23:24:24

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:
Here is what I have for the paternal ancestry of Charles Martel. It
comes mainly from the work of Settipani, but he attaches Munderic to
the lineage you provide, but I believe he was the Munderic, Bishop of
Arisitum, and not the son of Cloderic in your list. Some people list
Arnulf as the son of Arnold, but I have him listed as his son-in-law.

Munderic, Bishop of Arisitum (d after 578)
married
Arthemia, daughter of Sacerdos, Bishop of Lyons

I reported to GEN-MEDIEVAL on Fri, 02 Apr 2004, that Prof. David Kelley had
conveyed to me that he does not believe that Gundulf, son of Artemia, is
identical with Gundulf, son of Munderic, and therefore no longer thinks that
Artemia was Munderic's wife. (And I quoted Settipani's opinion on this
three days ago.)

At any rate, Artemia was sister, not daughter, of Sacerdos, Bishop of Lyons.

-- Don Stone

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