Fw: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 jan 2005 10:51:02

Dear Peter,

You are getting me worried. Alexios 1136-1183 and Maria Doukaina, according
to ES II 177 did have a daughter Eudokia, born circa 1162 died 4 November
1202 and married in 1181 Guillaume VIII de Montpellier. Surely this is a
different Eudokia then the one you mention?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183


"eachwaynet" <eachwaynet@westnet.com.au> wrote in message

news:41d79245$0$29702$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
Alexios's mothers name was Eupraxia and she was allegedly born in Kiew
about 1110. Before they married in 1124, she was baptised Irene.
I am surprised that so little is known about her taking into account
that
she must have been a "Princess". Her "surname" does not sound Russian.
Was she maybe from Georgia? I have 1152 as the year of her death.

I have Alexios daughter Eudoxia as being born 1167, married 1174 and
died
about 1202. According to my records, she had one child, Maria, born
1180.

I know nothing about Alexios wife Maria Doukas. (No parents, No date of
Birth or any other date)

Maybe there is some new info available

This is confused - Eupraxia (Eirene), born ca 1110, died 17 November 1131,
was daughter of Mstislav Harold, grand prince of Kiev. She was the first
wife of Alexios Komnenos, co-emperor, who died of fever at Attalia on 2
August 1142 . They had only one known child, Maria, who died insane after
1167 when her husband the protostrator Alexios Axouchos was claustrated
(he
was of Turkish origin & accused of sorcery).

The man Leo was asking about was nephew of the above Alexios Komnenos. The
junior namesake, born in 1136, was son of the sebastokrator Andronikos &
Eirene whose parentage is uncertain (she may have been a Greek or a Norman
from Sicily). This Alexios was protostrator & protosebastos, lover of
Empress Maria & leader of her regency council, murdered as a prisoner in
1183. His wife was Maria Doukaina (at least, she was described as
'doukoblastos', bud of the Doukas stem, but her parentntage is unknown.
They
had a son Andronikos, who died young from a riding fall. Eudokia who
married
Oddone Frangipane & later Guelfo di Paganello is speculated to be their
daughter, but there is no proof of this.

The biography of this younger Alexios should be in most encyclopedias.

Peter Stewart



Peter Stewart

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 jan 2005 11:38:07

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000601c4f0b0$41dc8d60$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Peter,

You are getting me worried. Alexios 1136-1183 and Maria Doukaina,
according
to ES II 177 did have a daughter Eudokia, born circa 1162 died 4 November
1202 and married in 1181 Guillaume VIII de Montpellier. Surely this is a
different Eudokia then the one you mention?

The parentage of this Eudokia is famously unknown, as is her family. It has
been speculated that she was daughter of the sebastokrator Isaakios Komnenos
& Eirene Diplosynadene - I find the reasoning behind idea most unconvincing.

Szabolcs de Vajay has written a few articles about this problem. I expect a
search of the SGM archive (try using the terms Komnene and Montpellier)
should turn up details from previous discussion of the question.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 jan 2005 11:43:35

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000601c4f0b0$41dc8d60$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Peter,

You are getting me worried. Alexios 1136-1183 and Maria Doukaina,
according
to ES II 177 did have a daughter Eudokia, born circa 1162 died 4 November
1202 and married in 1181 Guillaume VIII de Montpellier.

By the way, 4 November 1202 is the date of Guillaume VIII de Montpellier's
will, not that of his repudiated Greek wife Eudokia's death (which is not
certain).

Peter Stewart

Doug McDonald

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 02 jan 2005 15:58:17

Peter Stewart wrote:

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000601c4f0b0$41dc8d60$c3b4fea9@email...

Dear Peter,

You are getting me worried. Alexios 1136-1183 and Maria Doukaina,
according
to ES II 177 did have a daughter Eudokia, born circa 1162 died 4 November
1202 and married in 1181 Guillaume VIII de Montpellier. Surely this is a
different Eudokia then the one you mention?


The parentage of this Eudokia is famously unknown, as is her family. It has
been speculated that she was daughter of the sebastokrator Isaakios Komnenos
& Eirene Diplosynadene - I find the reasoning behind idea most unconvincing.

Szabolcs de Vajay has written a few articles about this problem. I expect a
search of the SGM archive (try using the terms Komnene and Montpellier)
should turn up details from previous discussion of the question.



Yes, it's in 2002. And back then you were not exactly "unconvinced".


to wit:

Anyway, Eudokia who married Guilhem VIII of Montpellier was clearly a
niece
of Emperor Manuel I and the youngest daughter of the sebastokrator
Isaakios
by his second wife Eirene Diplosynadene. The table in _Oxford
Dictionary of
Byzantium_ volume II is drawn from _Genealogia ton Komnenon_ by
Konstantinos
Barzos (Thessalonica, 1984), now the standard work on this family.

I haven't seen this, but *Notes de titulaire et de prosopographie
byzantines: sébaste et gambos* by L Stiernon in _Revue des Études
Byzantines_ 23 (1965), *The Guillems of Montpellier: a Sociological
Appraisal* by Archibald Lewis in _Viator_ 2 (1971) and *Zur
Geschichte der
"Kaiserin" von Montpellier, Eudoxia Komnena* by Winfried Hecht in
_Revue des
Études Byzantines_ 26 (1968) are quite clear on the point.

The unhappy Eudokia was known in Languedoc as "domina Imperatrix", even
called by this title in the will of her daughter Marie, queen of
Aragon [see
*Les testaments de la reine Marie de Montpellier* by José Maria Lacarra &
Luis Gonzalez Anton in _Annales du Midi_ 90 (1978).

Peter Stewart

There are other Eastern connections in Leo's huge file.
For example, Phillip von Hohenstaufen King of the Romans (d. 1208)
m. "Eirene Angelina" d of Isaac II d. 1204. I find
a couple of mentions of this in the archives with
no negative ... that I found ... comments from the experts.
Any current comments?




Doug McDonald

Peter Stewart

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 jan 2005 23:46:54

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cr926a$r9j$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
Peter Stewart wrote:

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000601c4f0b0$41dc8d60$c3b4fea9@email...

Dear Peter,

You are getting me worried. Alexios 1136-1183 and Maria Doukaina,
according
to ES II 177 did have a daughter Eudokia, born circa 1162 died 4 November
1202 and married in 1181 Guillaume VIII de Montpellier. Surely this is a
different Eudokia then the one you mention?


The parentage of this Eudokia is famously unknown, as is her family. It
has been speculated that she was daughter of the sebastokrator Isaakios
Komnenos & Eirene Diplosynadene - I find the reasoning behind idea most
unconvincing.

Szabolcs de Vajay has written a few articles about this problem. I expect
a search of the SGM archive (try using the terms Komnene and Montpellier)
should turn up details from previous discussion of the question.



Yes, it's in 2002. And back then you were not exactly "unconvinced".


to wit:

Anyway, Eudokia who married Guilhem VIII of Montpellier was clearly a
niece
of Emperor Manuel I and the youngest daughter of the sebastokrator
Isaakios
by his second wife Eirene Diplosynadene. The table in _Oxford
Dictionary of
Byzantium_ volume II is drawn from _Genealogia ton Komnenon_ by
Konstantinos
Barzos (Thessalonica, 1984), now the standard work on this family.

I haven't seen this, but *Notes de titulaire et de prosopographie
byzantines: sébaste et gambos* by L Stiernon in _Revue des Études
Byzantines_ 23 (1965), *The Guillems of Montpellier: a Sociological
Appraisal* by Archibald Lewis in _Viator_ 2 (1971) and *Zur
Geschichte der
"Kaiserin" von Montpellier, Eudoxia Komnena* by Winfried Hecht in
_Revue des
Études Byzantines_ 26 (1968) are quite clear on the point.

The unhappy Eudokia was known in Languedoc as "domina Imperatrix", even
called by this title in the will of her daughter Marie, queen of
Aragon [see
*Les testaments de la reine Marie de Montpellier* by José Maria Lacarra
&
Luis Gonzalez Anton in _Annales du Midi_ 90 (1978).

Peter Stewart

There are other Eastern connections in Leo's huge file.
For example, Phillip von Hohenstaufen King of the Romans (d. 1208)
m. "Eirene Angelina" d of Isaac II d. 1204. I find
a couple of mentions of this in the archives with
no negative ... that I found ... comments from the experts.
Any current comments?

Yes - since the exchanges you mention, and as you note, my views have
changed. The reason for investigating such problems is to learn new things,
not merely to confirm received opinion. The arguments supporting the
conjecture of Szabolcs de Vajay have been accepted by many genealogists, and
seemed plausible enough until I considered alternatives. There isn't
comprehensive & direct evidence to discuss, and I'm not going to complicate
the question with my current opinion that has no particular value for
others. For what it's worth, I think there may be a more likely
identification of the Montpellier Eudokia, and if this stands up to closer
examination when I can complete my research I shall think about posting on
the question.

Peter Stewart

Doug McDonald

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 jan 2005 01:25:17

Peter Stewart wrote:



Yes - since the exchanges you mention, and as you note, my views have
changed. The reason for investigating such problems is to learn new things,
not merely to confirm received opinion. The arguments supporting the
conjecture of Szabolcs de Vajay have been accepted by many genealogists, and
seemed plausible enough until I considered alternatives. There isn't
comprehensive & direct evidence to discuss, and I'm not going to complicate
the question with my current opinion that has no particular value for
others. For what it's worth, I think there may be a more likely
identification of the Montpellier Eudokia, and if this stands up to closer
examination when I can complete my research I shall think about posting on
the question.



Thanks for a clear reply. I am getting ready for a large extension
of my own file, and this line will not be included.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 jan 2005 01:40:21

Leo van de Pas wrote:

snip

Thanks for a clear reply. I am getting ready for a large extension
of my own file, and this line will not be included.

Doug McDonald


Dear Doug,
Why won't you include this line? Your whole line stands as far as Eudokia,
just her father is not Alexios................
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas


It's excluded from her back in time Leo. I thought that should be clear.

Doug

Leo van de Pas

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 jan 2005 01:41:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183


snip

Thanks for a clear reply. I am getting ready for a large extension
of my own file, and this line will not be included.

Doug McDonald

Dear Doug,

Why won't you include this line? Your whole line stands as far as Eudokia,
just her father is not Alexios................
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Peter Stewart

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 jan 2005 04:13:11

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cra49m$4lm$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
Leo van de Pas wrote:


snip

Thanks for a clear reply. I am getting ready for a large extension
of my own file, and this line will not be included.

Doug McDonald


Dear Doug,
Why won't you include this line? Your whole line stands as far as
Eudokia,
just her father is not Alexios................
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas


It's excluded from her back in time Leo. I thought that should be clear.

I think you can take up the line back from Eudokia confidently enough after
a gap of one or two generations, although without certainty as to her exact
connection with Emperor Ioannes II (aka Kaloioannes, John the Good, who died
hunting a boar on Mt Taurus on 8 April 1143).

Several sources state that Eudokia of Montpellier was a close relative of
Ioannes II's younger son Emperor Manouel I (died 24 September 1180). The
latter sent her west as a bride for Sancho of Aragon, younger brother of the
king, and she was described by Guillaume de Puylaurens as "neptem Hemanuelis
imperatoris Constantinopolitani" (niece/grand-niece of Manouel, emperor of
Constantinople and by the Pisan annalist Bernardo Maragone as"una sua
nepote". She was not Manouel's daughter (as a Spanish source has it) or his
granddaughter, while a relationship more distant than (grand-)niece is
somewhat less plausible given the understandings that were formed in France
(where she was afterwards known as "the empress", at least suggesting
proximate descent from an emperor) as well as the diplomatic value of the
intended marriage.

Peter Stewart

Doug McDonald

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 jan 2005 18:23:22

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cra49m$4lm$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...



It's excluded from her back in time Leo. I thought that should be clear.


I think you can take up the line back from Eudokia confidently enough after
a gap of one or two generations, although without certainty as to her exact
connection with Emperor Ioannes II (aka Kaloioannes, John the Good, who died
hunting a boar on Mt Taurus on 8 April 1143).

Several sources state that Eudokia of Montpellier was a close relative of
Ioannes II's younger son Emperor Manouel I (died 24 September 1180).

There are numerous other connections to these Greek lines on
Leo's web site .... losing one won't matter much. Of course,
how reliable are these lines? I have no idea.

On Feb. 20, 2003, Kelsey Williams made a post titled "Byzantine
Ancestors of the English Kings", listing 9 connections.
One was disposed of soon thereafter, no issue, and another
(Montpellier) here. As far as I know no others have been
shown to be wrong, at least here. Is this correct?

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 jan 2005 19:10:15

Monday, 3 January, 2005


Dear Doug (and Peter, et al.),

The post you mentioned by Kelsey Williams gave the following 8 (or
9) Byzantine 'gateways' for Edward III of England and his wife Philippa
of Hainaut. My views on same are indicated after each: the views of
others among the list as to the validity or controversy re: each would
be of interest.


I. Maria, dau. of Emperor Theodor Laskaris (d. 1270) = Bela IV, King of
Hungary (1206-1270)

Valid (ancestors of Philippa of Hainaut through the Angevin Kings
of Naples). NOTE: Theodore Laskaris, 'emperor' of Nicaea, d. in
1222,
not 1270.


II. Eudokia, niece of Emperor Manuel Komnenos = Guillem VIII, Seigneur
de Montpellier (d. 1202)

Valid (ancestors of both Edward III and Philippa through the Kings
of Aragon). NOTE the current controversy as to the exact
relationship
between Eudokia and the Emperor John II (d. 1143) of whom she was
either a descendant (possibly granddaughter) or great-niece. Her
descent from the Emperor Alexius I is apparently not in dispute.


III. Irene, dau. of Emperor Isaac II Angelos = Philipp von Schwaben,
Deutschen Koenig (1178-1208)

Valid (ancestors of Edward III through the Dukes of Brabant and
the Counts of Artois). NOTE also there are several other 'English'
descents, through the sons of Edward I of England by Marguerite of
France, and also through the marriage of Edmund, Earl of Lancaster
('Crouchback' to some) as 2nd husband to Blanche of Artois.


IV. N., dau. of Theodules Synadenos = Geisa I, King of Hungary (d.
1077)

Valid, although (beyond NN Synadena being a niece of the Emperor
Nikephoros Botaneiates) I am still looking for the alleged descent
from the Phokai.


V. Anna, niece of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos (b. say 1080) = Uros I
Nemanjic, Prince of Serbia

Uncertain as to how solid this one is. Paul Theroff shows Anna as
"probably dau.of Konstantinos Diogenes", a brother-in-law of the
Emperor Alexius.


VI. N., dau. of Emperor Konstantinos IX Monomachos (d. 1067) = Vsevolod
I, Grand Prince of Kiev (1030-1093)

Probable, and also very interesting, but evidently not proven.
Christian Settipani wrote in 2001 in the SGM thread "Re: Monomachos",

' Constantine IX had a wife (name unknown) and a mistress (Maria),
both Skleraina, and his putative daughter is obviously issued from one
of them. The wife is the daughter of Basil Skleros and of Pulcheria
Argyropoulina, and the mistress is the sister of
Romanos Skleros and the paternal niece of Basil. It was the common
grandfather
of these two women, the famous Romanos Skleros, who has married a
sister of Abou
Taglib, emir of Alep. Romanos' grandmother, Gregoria, was the
great-granddaughter of Bardas, brother of emperor Basil I, who claimed
a descent
from Alexander the Great. But the descent is fictional of course.
You could find all relevant references in J.-F. Vannier, Les Argyroi,
Paris,
1974 and J.-Cl. Cheynet, Pouvoir et Contestation à Byzance, Paris,
1990.
Last, Constantine's relative who married Vsevolod (I think there
is a good
chance she was a daughter, but she can be a niece or a first cousin) is
not
known by name. There are some chances that her name was Anna (nor Maria
or
Irene, and certainly not Maria Irene).'


VII. Theophano, niece of Emperor Ioannes I Tzimiskes (956-991) = Otto
II, Holy Roman Emperor (955-983)

Uncertain; or as that noted genealogist Bill Clinton would say,
"that depends on what you mean by the word 'niece'."
On the issue of her being identified as Theophano Sklerina, Peter
Stewart wrote in July of last year,

' This can't be settled from definitive proof, of course, but the
view generally taken today was set out by Gunther Wolf in
'Wer war Theophanu?', Kaiserin Theophanu, Begegnung des Ostens
und Westens um die Wende des ersten Jahrtausends: Gedenkschrift
des Koelner Schnuetgen-Museums zum 1000 Todesjahr der Kaiserin,
edited by Anton von Euw & Peter Schreiner, 2 vols
(Cologne, 1991), II 385-396.
She is thought to have been the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros
(whose sister Maria was married to Emperor Iohannes Tzimiskes)
and Maria Phokaina.'

While probably not a blood relation of the Emperor John Tzimiskes,
Theophano (if a Sclerina) was descended from the Phokai, and also from
Bardas, a brother of the Emperor Basil I (d. 886).


VIII. Anna, dau. of Emperor Leo VI (c889-c903) = Louis III, Holy Roman
Emperor (c880-928)

Unproven.


IX. N., sister-in-law of Emperor Konstantinos VI = Grimoald III, Duke
of
Benevento (d. 806)

Uncertain; I would be interested in the views of others as to this
alleged connection.



Hope this is helpful (any responses will of course be of
interest).

Cheers,

John





Doug McDonald wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cra49m$4lm$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

SNIP

On Feb. 20, 2003, Kelsey Williams made a post titled "Byzantine
Ancestors of the English Kings", listing 9 connections.
One was disposed of soon thereafter, no issue, and another
(Montpellier) here. As far as I know no others have been
shown to be wrong, at least here. Is this correct?

Doug McDonald

Peter Stewart

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 jan 2005 22:39:13

<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1104775815.607232.93410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Monday, 3 January, 2005

Dear Doug (and Peter, et al.),

The post you mentioned by Kelsey Williams gave the following 8 (or
9) Byzantine 'gateways' for Edward III of England and his wife Philippa
of Hainaut. My views on same are indicated after each: the views of
others among the list as to the validity or controversy re: each would
be of interest.

I don't have time at present to check these connections - or frankly the
inclination, as my interest is far more in relationships between medieval
contemporaries than in the distant ancestry of people the or now. However, a
couple of notes:

I. Maria, dau. of Emperor Theodor Laskaris (d. 1270) = Bela IV, King
of Hungary (1206-1270)

Valid (ancestors of Philippa of Hainaut through the Angevin Kings
of Naples). NOTE: Theodore Laskaris, 'emperor' of Nicaea, d. in
1222, not 1270.

Surely Kelsey meant that his daughter Maria died in 1270.

II. Eudokia, niece of Emperor Manuel Komnenos = Guillem VIII,
Seigneur de Montpellier (d. 1202)

Valid (ancestors of both Edward III and Philippa through the Kings
of Aragon). NOTE the current controversy as to the exact
relationship between Eudokia and the Emperor John II (d. 1143)
of whom she was either a descendant (possibly granddaughter) or
great-niece. Her descent from the Emperor Alexius I is apparently
not in dispute.

I don't think a very strong case can be made that Eudokia was descended from
Alexios I but not from Ioannes II - neither Guillaume de Puylaurens (calling
her "neptis" to Manouel I) or Bernardo Maragone (calling her "sua nepote" is
likely to have meant "cousin" rather than "niece" or (maybe correctly, but
perhaps in both cases without knowing of an intervening generation)
"great-niece".

<snip>

VI. N., dau. of Emperor Konstantinos IX Monomachos (d. 1067)
= Vsevolod I, Grand Prince of Kiev (1030-1093)

Probable, and also very interesting, but evidently not proven.
Christian Settipani wrote in 2001 in the SGM thread "Re:
Monomachos",

' Constantine IX had a wife (name unknown) and a mistress (Maria),
both Skleraina, and his putative daughter is obviously issued from one
of them. The wife is the daughter of Basil Skleros and of Pulcheria
Argyropoulina, and the mistress is the sister of Romanos Skleros and
the paternal niece of Basil. It was the common grandfather of these
two women, the famous Romanos Skleros, who has married a
sister of Abou Taglib, emir of Alep.

I can't speak for Christian, but I don't think he is reading sgm at present
& I'm fairly sure he would not maintain this purported connection now. It
was pretty effectively dismissed by Khalid Yahya Blankinship, 'On the
Alleged Marriage of a Muslim Princess to a Byzantine Rebel', in
_Genealogists' Magazine_ 24 (1993).

<snip>

VIII. Anna, dau. of Emperor Leo VI (c889-c903) = Louis III, Holy
Roman Emperor (c880-928)

Unproven.

Indeed, but even if the marriage of Anna could be proved this alleged line
has another major uncertainty later in the speculative link between Louis
III's son Charles Constantine and Countess Constance of Arles.

Peter Stewart

Kelsey Williams

Re: Alexios Komnenos, Protostrator 1136-1183

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 04 jan 2005 17:00:30

Hello,

Since I posted this list of Byzantine 'gateways' in 2003 my views on
them have changed somewhat and I thought it might not be inadvisable to
clarify my positions regarding these lines:


therav3@aol.com wrote:
Monday, 3 January, 2005


Dear Doug (and Peter, et al.),

The post you mentioned by Kelsey Williams gave the following 8 (or
9) Byzantine 'gateways' for Edward III of England and his wife
Philippa
of Hainaut. My views on same are indicated after each: the views of
others among the list as to the validity or controversy re: each
would
be of interest.


I. Maria, dau. of Emperor Theodor Laskaris (d. 1270) = Bela IV, King
of
Hungary (1206-1270)

Valid (ancestors of Philippa of Hainaut through the Angevin Kings
of Naples). NOTE: Theodore Laskaris, 'emperor' of Nicaea, d. in
1222,
not 1270.

As Peter Stewart has already observed, I actually meant that Maria died
in 1270.


II. Eudokia, niece of Emperor Manuel Komnenos = Guillem VIII,
Seigneur
de Montpellier (d. 1202)

Valid (ancestors of both Edward III and Philippa through the Kings
of Aragon). NOTE the current controversy as to the exact
relationship
between Eudokia and the Emperor John II (d. 1143) of whom she was
either a descendant (possibly granddaughter) or great-niece. Her
descent from the Emperor Alexius I is apparently not in dispute.

I would revise this to read 'near relative of Emperor Manuel I
Komnenos' based upon the various discussions in the last year or two
concerning her origin. I think it is reasonable, however, to state
that she was almost certainly descended from Ioannes II himself, rather
than from a sibling of his.


III. Irene, dau. of Emperor Isaac II Angelos = Philipp von Schwaben,
Deutschen Koenig (1178-1208)

Valid (ancestors of Edward III through the Dukes of Brabant and
the Counts of Artois). NOTE also there are several other 'English'
descents, through the sons of Edward I of England by Marguerite of
France, and also through the marriage of Edmund, Earl of Lancaster
('Crouchback' to some) as 2nd husband to Blanche of Artois.


IV. N., dau. of Theodules Synadenos = Geisa I, King of Hungary (d.
1077)

Valid, although (beyond NN Synadena being a niece of the Emperor
Nikephoros Botaneiates) I am still looking for the alleged descent
from the Phokai.

What source alledges a descent from the Phokai?


V. Anna, niece of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos (b. say 1080) = Uros I
Nemanjic, Prince of Serbia

Uncertain as to how solid this one is. Paul Theroff shows Anna as
"probably dau.of Konstantinos Diogenes", a brother-in-law of the
Emperor Alexius.

I think it is fairly well-established that Anna is a niece to Alexios I
and is the mother of the Zupan Urosh's children. I suspect Theroff has
taken his information from ES which (at III/1: 181) shows her as "(T v
Konstantinos Diogenes)," apparently indicating some uncertainty on the
compiler's part. I should also point out that, appealing as it is, she
can hardly have been the daughter of Isakkios Komnenos, sebastokrator,
(living 1107) and Eirene of Georgia (a possibility raised in several
posts in the archives), as they had a daughter named Anna who married
Ioannes Doukas.


VI. N., dau. of Emperor Konstantinos IX Monomachos (d. 1067) Vsevolod
I, Grand Prince of Kiev (1030-1093)

Probable, and also very interesting, but evidently not proven.
Christian Settipani wrote in 2001 in the SGM thread "Re: Monomachos",

' Constantine IX had a wife (name unknown) and a mistress (Maria),
both Skleraina, and his putative daughter is obviously issued from
one
of them. The wife is the daughter of Basil Skleros and of Pulcheria
Argyropoulina, and the mistress is the sister of
Romanos Skleros and the paternal niece of Basil. It was the common
grandfather
of these two women, the famous Romanos Skleros, who has married a
sister of Abou
Taglib, emir of Alep. Romanos' grandmother, Gregoria, was the
great-granddaughter of Bardas, brother of emperor Basil I, who
claimed
a descent
from Alexander the Great. But the descent is fictional of course.
You could find all relevant references in J.-F. Vannier, Les Argyroi,
Paris,
1974 and J.-Cl. Cheynet, Pouvoir et Contestation à Byzance, Paris,
1990.
Last, Constantine's relative who married Vsevolod (I think there
is a good
chance she was a daughter, but she can be a niece or a first cousin)
is
not
known by name. There are some chances that her name was Anna (nor
Maria
or
Irene, and certainly not Maria Irene).'

I am now inclined to change this to read 'probably dau. of' as, after
all, this whole scenario rests essentially on her son's use of the name
'Monomakh' and the implications of this usage. Still, it is more than
likely true and provides a very interesting gateway (although I agree
that the Islamic connection is hardly tenable).


VII. Theophano, niece of Emperor Ioannes I Tzimiskes (956-991) = Otto
II, Holy Roman Emperor (955-983)

Uncertain; or as that noted genealogist Bill Clinton would say,
"that depends on what you mean by the word 'niece'."
On the issue of her being identified as Theophano Sklerina, Peter
Stewart wrote in July of last year,

' This can't be settled from definitive proof, of course, but the
view generally taken today was set out by Gunther Wolf in
'Wer war Theophanu?', Kaiserin Theophanu, Begegnung des Ostens
und Westens um die Wende des ersten Jahrtausends: Gedenkschrift
des Koelner Schnuetgen-Museums zum 1000 Todesjahr der Kaiserin,
edited by Anton von Euw & Peter Schreiner, 2 vols
(Cologne, 1991), II 385-396.
She is thought to have been the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros
(whose sister Maria was married to Emperor Iohannes Tzimiskes)
and Maria Phokaina.'

While probably not a blood relation of the Emperor John Tzimiskes,
Theophano (if a Sclerina) was descended from the Phokai, and also
from
Bardas, a brother of the Emperor Basil I (d. 886).

Technically this connection still stands, whether one adopts Wolf's
views or not, as she is distinctly named "niece" of Tzimiskes in the
primary sources. I would tend to agree with the reconstruction making
her a daughter of Konstantinos and Maria.


VIII. Anna, dau. of Emperor Leo VI (c889-c903) = Louis III, Holy
Roman
Emperor (c880-928)

Unproven.


And not particularly likely. At the time I based this on Settipani's
_Nos Ancetres_ but since then, having seen the criticism of this
reconstruction, I am somewhat doubtful of its validity and would like
to see more convincing evidence presented.

IX. N., sister-in-law of Emperor Konstantinos VI = Grimoald III, Duke
of
Benevento (d. 806)

Uncertain; I would be interested in the views of others as to this
alleged connection.


Although I haven't looked into this line myself (the link I presented
here was suggested by Morris Bierbrier in his article on Byzantine
descents in _The Genealogist's Magazine_), the last time it was brought
up on s.g.m. someone pointed out that Grimoald III had no issue.
Assuming that is true it makes the question of the marriage a bit of a
moot point.


Hope this is helpful (any responses will of course be of
interest).

Cheers,

John



Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams



Doug McDonald wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cra49m$4lm$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

SNIP

On Feb. 20, 2003, Kelsey Williams made a post titled "Byzantine
Ancestors of the English Kings", listing 9 connections.
One was disposed of soon thereafter, no issue, and another
(Montpellier) here. As far as I know no others have been
shown to be wrong, at least here. Is this correct?

Doug McDonald

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