Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?

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John Higgins

Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 25 des 2004 21:21:01

CP 12.2:44, sub Welles, shows Joan/Cecily Waterton, the wife of Lionel, 6th Lord Welles, as the dau. of Robert Waterton of Methley by his wife Joan the widow of Sir William Ellis of Kidall and dau. of William de Everingham of Laxton. But CP 5:193, in a footnote to a chart of the heirs of the Everingham family, says that Joan [Waterton] Welles was the dau. of Robert, not by Joan Everingham, but by a second unnamed wife. CP 12.2 cites sources (albeit secondary ones) while CP 5 does not.

In more recent publications, PA3 follows the version in CP 12.2, while its successor publication RPA does not give a mother for Joan Waterton, thus suggesting that it follows the version in CP 5:193 - and RPA also does not show a Plantagenet descent for Joan Waterton, which would exist if her mother were Joan Everingham.

Can anyone help to clarify this apparent contradiction in CP?

On the subject of Everingham, RPA apparently overlooks a Plantagenet descent, via Everingham, for Barbara Sothill, wife of Sir Marmaduke Constable (for which, see the chart at CP 5:193).

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 26 des 2004 01:41:46

In message of 25 Dec, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ("John Higgins") wrote:

CP 12.2:44, sub Welles, shows Joan/Cecily Waterton, the wife of
Lionel, 6th Lord Welles, as the dau. of Robert Waterton of Methley by
his wife Joan the widow of Sir William Ellis of Kidall and dau. of
William de Everingham of Laxton. But CP 5:193, in a footnote to a
chart of the heirs of the Everingham family, says that Joan
[Waterton] Welles was the dau. of Robert, not by Joan Everingham, but
by a second unnamed wife. CP 12.2 cites sources (albeit secondary
ones) while CP 5 does not.

The 1998 Corrections volume of CP, XIV, p. 311, has this cryptic
amendment for CP V, 193:

page 193,
line 3 of pedigree, delete '2' above 'Methley'

I take this to mean that Joan Everingham's marriage to Robert Waterton
is to be deleted.

In the past I have been told by a private e-mail that:

"A modern researcher has suggested that this Joan was in fact the
daughter of Robert Waterton, Constable of Pontefract Castle and her
mother was Cecily Fleming. Cecily Fleming was the heir in her issue
(Joan) of her father Sir Robert Fleming of Woodhall Methey. Cecily had
a brother Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln who apparently dsp."

I have found no evidence to support this and the marriage of this Joan
Waterton to Lionel Welles does not sound quite grand enough to have
been arranged in the way that most such marriages were.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Higgins

Re: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 26 des 2004 03:11:01

I had seen the cryptic amendment in CP 14 regarding the Everingham/Waterton
marriage. I suppose it could be read to say that the 2nd marriage of Joan
Everingham should be deleted, but one could hope that the editor of CP 14
would have been more explicit if that were the case. In a narrower reading
of the amendment, I assumed that he was saying that the Everingham marriage
was not the 2nd marriage for Robert Waterton - although why he needed to say
this, given the footnote in the original CP 5, is unclear.

Also CP 14 does not show a corresponding correction for CP 12.2, which would
be necessary if the marriage were to be deleted.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Joan Waterton, wife of Lord Welles - a CP contradiction?


In message of 25 Dec, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ("John Higgins") wrote:

CP 12.2:44, sub Welles, shows Joan/Cecily Waterton, the wife of
Lionel, 6th Lord Welles, as the dau. of Robert Waterton of Methley by
his wife Joan the widow of Sir William Ellis of Kidall and dau. of
William de Everingham of Laxton. But CP 5:193, in a footnote to a
chart of the heirs of the Everingham family, says that Joan
[Waterton] Welles was the dau. of Robert, not by Joan Everingham, but
by a second unnamed wife. CP 12.2 cites sources (albeit secondary
ones) while CP 5 does not.

The 1998 Corrections volume of CP, XIV, p. 311, has this cryptic
amendment for CP V, 193:

page 193,
line 3 of pedigree, delete '2' above 'Methley'

I take this to mean that Joan Everingham's marriage to Robert Waterton
is to be deleted.

In the past I have been told by a private e-mail that:

"A modern researcher has suggested that this Joan was in fact the
daughter of Robert Waterton, Constable of Pontefract Castle and her
mother was Cecily Fleming. Cecily Fleming was the heir in her issue
(Joan) of her father Sir Robert Fleming of Woodhall Methey. Cecily had
a brother Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln who apparently dsp."

I have found no evidence to support this and the marriage of this Joan
Waterton to Lionel Welles does not sound quite grand enough to have
been arranged in the way that most such marriages were.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

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