William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer Trons
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Curt Nilsen
William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer Trons
Dear Newsgroup,
I have been doing some limited research to determine the degree of
plausibility that descendents of Kristoffer Trondson Rustung (born 1490
near Bergen, Norway) are also descendents of William the Conqueror.
Any insight into the plausibility of this connection would greatly
appreciated.
Here's the proposed lineage.
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Peder Karlson Schancke)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung)
In looking into this genealogy, here's a couple of "soft spots" I have
found.
1) The documentation that Kristoffer married Karinna is soft. His
probate document simply calls his wife "Karen." However, a funeral
sermon given ~100 years after the death of Kristoffer mentions that he
married Karinna Knutsdatter Schanke.
2) Gudrød II Olofsson and some of his descendents were Kings of the
Isle of Man. However, it appears that Hallstein Torleifsson was born
on the Isle of Man into this lineage, but then moved to Norway, and
then was linked into the Schanke lineage. It is my understanding that
there is circumstantial evidence to back this up, but not strong direct
evidence. I've heard that historians G.V.C Young and Roger de Robelin
have also supported this link in various books, but I have not been
able to check this myself.
I have been doing some limited research to determine the degree of
plausibility that descendents of Kristoffer Trondson Rustung (born 1490
near Bergen, Norway) are also descendents of William the Conqueror.
Any insight into the plausibility of this connection would greatly
appreciated.
Here's the proposed lineage.
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Peder Karlson Schancke)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung)
In looking into this genealogy, here's a couple of "soft spots" I have
found.
1) The documentation that Kristoffer married Karinna is soft. His
probate document simply calls his wife "Karen." However, a funeral
sermon given ~100 years after the death of Kristoffer mentions that he
married Karinna Knutsdatter Schanke.
2) Gudrød II Olofsson and some of his descendents were Kings of the
Isle of Man. However, it appears that Hallstein Torleifsson was born
on the Isle of Man into this lineage, but then moved to Norway, and
then was linked into the Schanke lineage. It is my understanding that
there is circumstantial evidence to back this up, but not strong direct
evidence. I've heard that historians G.V.C Young and Roger de Robelin
have also supported this link in various books, but I have not been
able to check this myself.
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Oooops - My apologies - A significant typo with the first lineage.
Here's the updated lineage:
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung)
Here's the updated lineage:
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung)
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Once again I'm thwarted by the computer. Here's an updated lineage:
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung
* William the Conqueror (married Matilda of Flanders)
* King Henry I (had children by many women)
* Princess Joan, AKA Elizabeth, Bastard daughter of King Henry (married
Fergus Galloway)
* Afreca Galloway (married Olof I Gudrödsson Bitling)
* Gudrød II Olofsson (married Finola Mac Lochlainn)
* Ragnvald Gudrødsson (married someone from Kintyre)
* Gudrød (Don) Ragnvaldsson (married Finnguala O'néill)
* Harald II Gudrødsson (marriage ?)
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
* Hallstein Torleifsson (married Sigrid Håkonsdatter Bolt)
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung
-
Gjest
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Your "Princess Joan (Elizabeth)" has to my knowledge never been
positively identified as the illegitimate daughter of Henry I. The
theory of Fergus' wife as a daughter of Henry I hinges on a later
statement that Fergus' descendants were related to the English royal
family, but this connection could've come through another line. While
it's entirely possible that Fergus was Henry's son-in-law, no
definitive proof has presented itself -- at least as far as I am aware.
positively identified as the illegitimate daughter of Henry I. The
theory of Fergus' wife as a daughter of Henry I hinges on a later
statement that Fergus' descendants were related to the English royal
family, but this connection could've come through another line. While
it's entirely possible that Fergus was Henry's son-in-law, no
definitive proof has presented itself -- at least as far as I am aware.
-
Brendan Wilson
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
There is a chart in the "History of the Ancient
House of Curwen," published 1928, by JF Curwen,
that shows Elizabeth is Henry II Dau. the chart is called
" De Curwen and some of their Kindred"
Brendan Wilson
On 24 Dec 2004 12:11:44 -0800, Nichol_storm@yahoo.com wrote:
House of Curwen," published 1928, by JF Curwen,
that shows Elizabeth is Henry II Dau. the chart is called
" De Curwen and some of their Kindred"
Brendan Wilson
On 24 Dec 2004 12:11:44 -0800, Nichol_storm@yahoo.com wrote:
Your "Princess Joan (Elizabeth)" has to my knowledge never been
positively identified as the illegitimate daughter of Henry I. The
theory of Fergus' wife as a daughter of Henry I hinges on a later
statement that Fergus' descendants were related to the English royal
family, but this connection could've come through another line. While
it's entirely possible that Fergus was Henry's son-in-law, no
definitive proof has presented itself -- at least as far as I am aware.
-
Brendan Wilson
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Opps sorry I meant Henry Ist
Brendan wilson
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 21:48:52 +1300, Brendan Wilson
<wilson97@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Brendan wilson
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 21:48:52 +1300, Brendan Wilson
<wilson97@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
There is a chart in the "History of the Ancient
House of Curwen," published 1928, by JF Curwen,
that shows Elizabeth is Henry II Dau. the chart is called
" De Curwen and some of their Kindred"
Brendan Wilson
On 24 Dec 2004 12:11:44 -0800, Nichol_storm@yahoo.com wrote:
Your "Princess Joan (Elizabeth)" has to my knowledge never been
positively identified as the illegitimate daughter of Henry I. The
theory of Fergus' wife as a daughter of Henry I hinges on a later
statement that Fergus' descendants were related to the English royal
family, but this connection could've come through another line. While
it's entirely possible that Fergus was Henry's son-in-law, no
definitive proof has presented itself -- at least as far as I am aware.
-
Michael King
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
At 7:11 PM -0800 23/12/04, Curt Nilsen wrote:
Hi Curt,
Thanks for this lineage. I have the Peder Karlson Schancke - Bothilda
Svalesdatter Smør marriage in my database and the birth of a son,
Knud. I also had the marriage of a Knud Pedersen Schancke to a
Dorthea Adelsteen, born in Egge. However, I also noted in my file
that there appears to be a difference of opinion about the parents of
the Knud who married Dorthea.
These are some of my notes:
"Uncertain parents. Some give them as Peter Olavsson and Margit
Joensdatter. The birth of Botilla/Bothilda Smør is generally given to
be about 1410 which means Knud cannot have been born much later than
1460. Working back to the possible birth of Knud's wife, Dorthe, she
cannot have been born much before 1490 which makes the age difference
quite large (but not impossible)."
I would appreciate your comments.
Regards,
Mike King.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Michael King
255 McClellan Road, Ottawa ON K2H 8N7, Canada
( Phone (613) 828-3781 2 Fax (613) 728-1933
+ Email miking@sympatico.ca
The box said, Win2K or better required....so I bought a Mac
* Nils Hallsteinson Schancke (married Kristina Halvardsdatter Smør)
* Peder Nilsson Schancke (married Elin Ranesdatter)
* Karl Pederson Schancke (married Ragnhild Kjetilsdatter)
* Peder Karlson Schancke (married Bothilda Svalesdatter Smør)
* Knud Pedersen Schancke (married Dorthe Håkonsdatter Adelsten av
Egge)
* Karina Knutsdatter Schancke (Married Kristoffer Trondson Rustung
Hi Curt,
Thanks for this lineage. I have the Peder Karlson Schancke - Bothilda
Svalesdatter Smør marriage in my database and the birth of a son,
Knud. I also had the marriage of a Knud Pedersen Schancke to a
Dorthea Adelsteen, born in Egge. However, I also noted in my file
that there appears to be a difference of opinion about the parents of
the Knud who married Dorthea.
These are some of my notes:
"Uncertain parents. Some give them as Peter Olavsson and Margit
Joensdatter. The birth of Botilla/Bothilda Smør is generally given to
be about 1410 which means Knud cannot have been born much later than
1460. Working back to the possible birth of Knud's wife, Dorthe, she
cannot have been born much before 1490 which makes the age difference
quite large (but not impossible)."
I would appreciate your comments.
Regards,
Mike King.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Michael King
255 McClellan Road, Ottawa ON K2H 8N7, Canada
( Phone (613) 828-3781 2 Fax (613) 728-1933
+ Email miking@sympatico.ca
The box said, Win2K or better required....so I bought a Mac
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Mike,
Thanks for your posting. You bring up a good point. I initially found
most of the information regarding Kristoffer Trondson, Karinna
Knutsdatter, and their families at the following website
http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/ (or to go directly to the information
on Karinna, go to
http://www.look.no/slekt/webcards/ps02/ps02_351.htm
This website indicates this information came from the book "Skanke
atten" by Roger de Robelin, ISBN 82-993791-0-5. Unfortunately, I have
not been able to check this book myself.
You bring up a good point, however. There are a lot of years (94)
between Peder Karlson and his grandchild Karinna. Possible - but still
a lot of years.
Curt
Thanks for your posting. You bring up a good point. I initially found
most of the information regarding Kristoffer Trondson, Karinna
Knutsdatter, and their families at the following website
http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/ (or to go directly to the information
on Karinna, go to
http://www.look.no/slekt/webcards/ps02/ps02_351.htm
This website indicates this information came from the book "Skanke
atten" by Roger de Robelin, ISBN 82-993791-0-5. Unfortunately, I have
not been able to check this book myself.
You bring up a good point, however. There are a lot of years (94)
between Peder Karlson and his grandchild Karinna. Possible - but still
a lot of years.
Curt
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Sorry - Yet another typo. Here's the correct, direct link to Karinna's
information:
http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/webcards ... 02_351.htm
information:
http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/webcards ... 02_351.htm
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Here's another interesting link - some of the newsgroup discussion from
Sept 2003 regarding Henry I and Fergus Galloway
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc ... 4602062f64
Sept 2003 regarding Henry I and Fergus Galloway
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc ... 4602062f64
-
Michael King
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
At 2:50 PM -0800 25/12/04, Curt Nilsen wrote:
Hi Curt,
Thanks for the reply. I tried corresponding with the owner of this
web site regarding another (obviously incorrect) entry, but he or she
never replied.
Regards,
Mike.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Michael King
255 McClellan Road, Ottawa ON K2H 8N7, Canada
( Phone (613) 828-3781 2 Fax (613) 728-1933
+ Email miking@sympatico.ca
The box said, Win2K or better required....so I bought a Mac
Sorry - Yet another typo. Here's the correct, direct link to Karinna's
information:
http://www.look.no/anita/slekt/webcards ... 02_351.htm
Hi Curt,
Thanks for the reply. I tried corresponding with the owner of this
web site regarding another (obviously incorrect) entry, but he or she
never replied.
Regards,
Mike.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Michael King
255 McClellan Road, Ottawa ON K2H 8N7, Canada
( Phone (613) 828-3781 2 Fax (613) 728-1933
+ Email miking@sympatico.ca
The box said, Win2K or better required....so I bought a Mac
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Mike,
Here's another site you might be interested in:
http://web.telia.com/~u63113426/anor/p00ed631c4.html
This seems to have lots of information on Hallsten Torliefsson, with
numerous sources noted. Unfortunately, it's in Norwegian - and I don't
know Norwegian.
The Torlief Haraldsson > Hallsten Torliefsson > Nils Hallstensson
linkage seems to be the key in determining if descendents of Kristoffer
Trondson Rustung and his wife are also direct descendents of William
the Conqueror.
Curt
Here's another site you might be interested in:
http://web.telia.com/~u63113426/anor/p00ed631c4.html
This seems to have lots of information on Hallsten Torliefsson, with
numerous sources noted. Unfortunately, it's in Norwegian - and I don't
know Norwegian.
The Torlief Haraldsson > Hallsten Torliefsson > Nils Hallstensson
linkage seems to be the key in determining if descendents of Kristoffer
Trondson Rustung and his wife are also direct descendents of William
the Conqueror.
Curt
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
On 23 Dec 2004 18:37:42 -0800, "Curt Nilsen"
<VIking-Roots@comcast.net> wrote:
These individuals were discussed briefly in the newsgroup a few years
ago. So far, I have seen no evidence that either Torleiv or Magnhild
ever even existed. The claim is made by G. C. V. Young, "The History
of the Isle of Man under the Norse, or Now through a glass darkly" on
a genealogical table on p. 203, a very poorly documented work which I
would consider to be of no real value as a genealogical source.
Two heiresses of the kingdom of the Isle of Man are known from the
English sources, Mary (daughter of king Reginald and wife of John
Waldeboef) and Aufrica (called "de Connoght" in one record, exact
family relationships unknown). This supposed third "heiress" who is
mentioned by Young but seems to be otherwise unknown looks suspicious.
Stewart Baldwin
<VIking-Roots@comcast.net> wrote:
* Torleiv Haraldsson (married Magnhild Olofsdatter. Magnhild may also
be the grand daughter of Gudrød II Olofsson)
These individuals were discussed briefly in the newsgroup a few years
ago. So far, I have seen no evidence that either Torleiv or Magnhild
ever even existed. The claim is made by G. C. V. Young, "The History
of the Isle of Man under the Norse, or Now through a glass darkly" on
a genealogical table on p. 203, a very poorly documented work which I
would consider to be of no real value as a genealogical source.
Two heiresses of the kingdom of the Isle of Man are known from the
English sources, Mary (daughter of king Reginald and wife of John
Waldeboef) and Aufrica (called "de Connoght" in one record, exact
family relationships unknown). This supposed third "heiress" who is
mentioned by Young but seems to be otherwise unknown looks suspicious.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Mike,
It looks like the website I mentioned is actually in Swedish instead of
Norwegian.
The good news: there's an online Swedish to English translator that can
translate entire webpages. Machine translation always has problems,
but it can help one get the general meaning.
Here's the translation page:
http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box
You can then enter the website
(http://web.telia.com/~u63113426/anor/p00ed631c4.html) and wait just a
few moments.
This site indicates there may be a fair amount of information about
Hallsten after he arrived in Norway. However, the documentation before
he arrives is soft. G.V.C. Young's books talk about this, but I'm not
sure what the other 7 sources listed by this site say about Hallsten's
origins. Stewart Baldwin's comments on Young's book are worth noting,
however. Perhaps someone else in this newsgroup can comment on these
other 7 sources.
The "sigill" or seal of Hallsten with the Isle of Man three-legged
symbol is interesting. It also appears that his mother may have moved
lots of documents from the Isle of Man to Norway, but these documents
were later destroyed by fire.
Curt
It looks like the website I mentioned is actually in Swedish instead of
Norwegian.
The good news: there's an online Swedish to English translator that can
translate entire webpages. Machine translation always has problems,
but it can help one get the general meaning.
Here's the translation page:
http://www.systranbox.com/systran/box
You can then enter the website
(http://web.telia.com/~u63113426/anor/p00ed631c4.html) and wait just a
few moments.
This site indicates there may be a fair amount of information about
Hallsten after he arrived in Norway. However, the documentation before
he arrives is soft. G.V.C. Young's books talk about this, but I'm not
sure what the other 7 sources listed by this site say about Hallsten's
origins. Stewart Baldwin's comments on Young's book are worth noting,
however. Perhaps someone else in this newsgroup can comment on these
other 7 sources.
The "sigill" or seal of Hallsten with the Isle of Man three-legged
symbol is interesting. It also appears that his mother may have moved
lots of documents from the Isle of Man to Norway, but these documents
were later destroyed by fire.
Curt
-
Curt Nilsen
Re: William The Conqueror - Isle of Man Kings - Kristoffer T
Regarding Hallsten Torliefsson, here's an interesting website dedicated
to this Knight. It also has some interesting citations from the
Diplomatarium Norvegicum.
http://www.dinridder.no/your_knight.htm
to this Knight. It also has some interesting citations from the
Diplomatarium Norvegicum.
http://www.dinridder.no/your_knight.htm