Male lineage extinctions

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Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2004 11:16:43

While browsing the s.g.m archives on an unrelated matter,
I came across an intriguing comment by John Carmi Parsons:

These fictive genealogies were popular for a period of some
centuries--cf. the
longstanding belief that both the Habsburgs and the dukes of Lorraine
were
descended from the semi-fictional Etichon, count of Alsace, a fiction
that
arose to paper over the extinction of the Habsburg's original male
line
at Charles VI's death in 1741: ...

Similarly, attempts were made to "prove" that the Wittelsbach dukes,
electors
and kings of Bavaria had a descent from the ancient Agilolfing dukes
(the
family ended when Charlemagne deposed Duke Tassilo III and put all
Tassilo's
children into monasteries and convents, making it rather unlikely
they left
any issue at all).


I understand the mathematical "paradox" that the agnatic line of,
say, Radeboto of Habsburg has become extinct even though he may
have a billion descendants.

What is the status of various noble agnatic lines? Since surnames
follow the Y chromosome it's easy to see that the House of
Stewart is far from extinction, and Oldenburg is obviously still
around. (Once I read in this newsgroup that Charlemagne's agnatic
line expired in 1333 with William `the Brown' de Burgh, Earl of
Ulster; later I read here that William's agnatic descent from
Charlemagne was fraudulent, so when did Charlemagne's line expire?)

My son and I are the only living male agnatic descendants of my
great great grandfather (also James D. Allen), but I've exchanged
e-mail with other agnatic Allen descendants of *that* James
D. Allen's great great grandfather.

James D. Allen

Doug McDonald

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 18 des 2004 14:55:50

I was looking at long male lines, and according to Leo's
web site, one Don Luis Alfonso Gonzalo Victor Manuel Marco de Borbón y
Martinez is the male line descendant of Hugh Capet, Robert I of France,
a line of Rutperts, Grafs in Wormsgau, and back into a
rather dubious line of names that sound Merovingian. There are
others alive too in this line ... this one's picture looks
like a soccer star. That's a very long line if true.

Doug McDonald

Kelsey Williams

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 18 des 2004 16:33:39

Doug McDonald wrote:
I was looking at long male lines, and according to Leo's
web site, one Don Luis Alfonso Gonzalo Victor Manuel Marco de Borbón
y
Martinez is the male line descendant of Hugh Capet, Robert I of
France,
a line of Rutperts, Grafs in Wormsgau, and back into a
rather dubious line of names that sound Merovingian. There are
others alive too in this line ... this one's picture looks
like a soccer star. That's a very long line if true.

Doug McDonald

Hello,

I suspect that the longest European male lines which can be traced
today are to be found in Ireland. Consider the following line, for
example:

1. Hugo O'Neill, heir apparent (in 1970 anyway) to the Chieftainry of
the O'Neills of Clannaboy (b. 1939).
2. Jorge O'Neill, the O'Neill of Clannaboy (b. 1908).
3. Hugo Joseph Jorge Ever O'Neill (1874-1940).
4. Jorge O'Neill, styled Count of Tyrone & Clannaboy (1848-1925).
5. Jorge Torlades O'Neill (1817-1890).
6. Jose-Maria O'Neill (b. 1788).
7. Carlos O'Neill (1760-1835).
8. Shane or Joao O'Neill, immigrated to Portugal (fl. 1740-1750).
9. Constantine O'Neill in Dublin.
10. Felim O'Neill (d. 1709).
11. Capt. Ever O'Neill (fl. ca. 1670).
12. Feidhlimidh Dubh O Neill (fl. 1640-1650).
13. Conn Buidhe O Neill (d. ca. 1630).
14. Domnall O Neill (d. bef. 1567).
15. Muircheartach Duileanach O Neill, the Mac Ui Neill Bhuidhe Iochtar
(d. aft. 1556).
16. Niall Mor O Neill, Lord of Clann Aodha Buidhe (r. 1482-1512).
17. Conn O Neill, Lord of Clann Aodha Buidhe (r. 1468-1482).
18. Aodh Buidhe O Neill, Lord of Clann Aodha Buidhe (r. 1425-1444).
19. Brian Ballach O Neill, Lord of Clann Aodha Buidhe (r. 1395-1425).
20. Muircheartach Ceannfhada O Neill, Lord of Clann Aodha Buidhe (r.
1369-1395).
21. Enri O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (d. 1347).
22. Brian O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (r. 1291-1295).
23. Aed Buide O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (r. 1260-1261; 1263-1283).
24. Domnall Oc O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (r. 1230-1241).
25. Aed Meith O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (r. 1196-1230).
26. Aed In Macaem Toinlesc O Neill, King of Tir Eogain (r. 1166-1177).
27. Muircheartach Muighe Line O Neill, styled King of Tir Eogain (d.
1160).
28. Tadhg Glinne O Neill, styled King of Tir Eogain.
29. Conchobar na Fiodhbhuidhi O Neill, styled King of Tir Eogain.
30. Flaithbertach Locha Feadhaidh O Neill, styled King of Tir Eogain.
31. Domnall an tOgdhamh, styled King of Tir Eogain.
32. Aed O Neill, King of Ailech (d. 1033).
33. Flaithbertach Ua Neill, King of Ailech (r. 1004-1030; 1032-1036).
34. Muirchertach Ua Neill, King of Mide? (d. 977).
35. Domnall ua Neill, High-King of Ireland (r. 956-980).
36. Muirchertach mac Neill, King of Ailech (r. 938-943).
37. Niall Glundub, High-King of Ireland (r. 916-919).
38. Aed Findliath, High-King of Ireland (r. 862-879).
39. Niall Caille, High-King of Ireland (r. 833-846).
40. Aed Oirdnide, High-King of Ireland (r. 797-819).
41. Niall Frossach, High-King of Ireland (d. 778).
42. Fergal mac Maele Duin, High-King of Ireland (r. 710-722).
43. Mael Duin (d. 681).
44. Mael Fithrich (d. 630).
45. Aed Uaridnach, High-King of Ireland (r. 604-612).
46. Domnall, High-King of Ireland (r. 565-566).
47. Muirchertach Mac Ercae, High-King of Ireland (r. 507-534/36).
48. Muiredach.
49. Eogan.
50. Niall Noigiallach, High-King of Ireland (r. ca. 445-453?).


Generations 1-14 from, Peter Townend (ed.), _Burke's Genealogical and
Heraldic History of the Peerage, Baronetage, and Knightage_, 105th Ed.
(London, 1970), p. 2031.
Generations 15-20 from, Moody, Martin & Byrne, _A New History of
Ireland_, Vol. IX (Oxford, 1984), table 16.
Generations 21-26 from, ibid., table 14.
Generations 28-31 from, Burke, p. 2027 (indicated as a five generation
gap of non-reigning O Neills in NHI).
Generations 32-50 from, NHI, tables 1-2.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Gjest

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2004 17:21:01

The longest proven male line in France, even with the newly found evidence
on the polignac lineage, is that of the MONTAINARD family, whose original
patronymic was DOMNENE. This has proven lineage to at least the 7th-8th century.
regards
~Pg

Gjest

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2004 01:11:01

The polignac lineage is very amply dealt with in Settipani's latest ;
La Noblesse du Midi Carolingien, Etudes sur quelques grandes familles
d'Aquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe siecles.
published for the unit of Prosopographical research , Linacre College,
Oxford, OX1 3JA.

My cousin, anne de Polignac, recently retired prof of Computer sciences and
Physics at rheims University was so excited that she bought 5 of them as
christmas presents for her family!
PG

Peter Stewart

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 des 2004 01:16:20

<jdallen2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103365003.445540.190700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

What is the status of various noble agnatic lines? Since surnames
follow the Y chromosome it's easy to see that the House of
Stewart is far from extinction, and Oldenburg is obviously still
around. (Once I read in this newsgroup that Charlemagne's agnatic
line expired in 1333 with William `the Brown' de Burgh, Earl of
Ulster; later I read here that William's agnatic descent from
Charlemagne was fraudulent, so when did Charlemagne's line expire?)

As far as I recall (I'm not able to check at present) there are two
lineages - one French and one Italian - probably extant today that have some
dubious claim to represent Charlemagne in the male line.

However, the legitimate royal line ended with the sons of Charles de Laon,
duke of Lower Lorraine. The last survivor of this family is thought to have
been a younger son, Louis, who became a monk at Sens and disappeared from
the record, presumably dead, early in the 11th century.

Apart from other possible illegitimate lines that are not traceable, agnatic
descendants through Charlemagne's grandson Bernard, king of the Lombards,
may possibly still exist. Barring this, and anyway in the absence of proof,
the line ran through the counts of Vermandois to Odo Fatuus (the Insane),
who was disinherited ca 1077 and died after 1085. He is said to have married
the daughter of a local knight and fathered a namesake son who was claimed
to be the ancestor of the seigneurs, counts & dukes of Saint-Simon.

The counts of Chiny may have been a cadet line of the Vermandois family, but
this is not certain. According to Christian Settipani, the last of their
male line was a cleric named Bohemund, living in June 1317.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2004 09:00:52

jdallen2000@yahoo.com wrote:
Since surnames
follow the Y chromosome it's easy to see that the House of
Stewart is far from extinction, and Oldenburg is obviously still
around.

Not necessarily - surnames are not always from the male parent. I am
thinking, at the moment, of such families as Capet-Courtenay and
Butler-Verdon/Verdun. Obviously, we know the full story on these but
the surnames alone do not tell that story. Even in recent times one of
my English grandfather's brothers hyphenated his surname with that of
his mother and gave only his mother's surname to his own children. That
was in the first decade of the 20th century. Best, Bronwen

Leo van de Pas

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 des 2004 09:50:02

Dear Bronwen,

What you suggest actually happened to both of the suggested Houses---Stewart
and Oldenburg. Stewart male line descendants can be found with the surname
of Scott, Lennox, Montagu-Douglas-Scott, Fitzroy, Stewart-Fitzroy, Beauclerk
and, no doubt, more.
Oldenburg male line descendants can belong to the Imperial family of Russia
(?), the House of Windsor, the Royal houses of Greece and Denmark, the House
of Holstein-Gottorp, the families Danneskiold-Samsoe, Dannemand, and many
others.
Best wishes
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <lostcooper@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Male lineage extinctions


jdallen2000@yahoo.com wrote:
Since surnames
follow the Y chromosome it's easy to see that the House of
Stewart is far from extinction, and Oldenburg is obviously still
around.

Not necessarily - surnames are not always from the male parent. I am
thinking, at the moment, of such families as Capet-Courtenay and
Butler-Verdon/Verdun. Obviously, we know the full story on these but
the surnames alone do not tell that story. Even in recent times one of
my English grandfather's brothers hyphenated his surname with that of
his mother and gave only his mother's surname to his own children. That
was in the first decade of the 20th century. Best, Bronwen


Rick Eaton

Re: Male lineage extinctions

Legg inn av Rick Eaton » 19 des 2004 21:41:02

Bronwen wrote:

(Snippet)

I am
thinking, at the moment, of such families as Capet-Courtenay and
Butler-Verdon/Verdun. Obviously, we know the full story on these but
the surnames alone do not tell that story.

(End snippet)

Bronwen et al:

The Rev. Robert W. Eyton, historian of Shropshire, wrote in his 12-volume
history and genealogy of the county that Sir Peter de Eyton III (?), died c.
1300 ["lord of Eyton (Eyton-on-the-Weald Moors and other manors; son of
William; father of Sir Humphrius/humphrey] was a minor at the time of his
father William's death) and was, therefore, ward to Peter Peverel by gift
of Ralph le Botiler/Botiler/Boteler (Butler), Baron of Wem.

I have searched and searched for a family connection between the Botilers,
Peverels and the Eytons and, finding none, assume that the "gift" was made
under Botiler's authority as Baron. Neither have I be able to find a family
connection between Peter Peverel and Peter de Eyton, although I have not
given up looking. The only thread would be through the FitzAlan family. Yet,
the Eyton/Eaton descendancy from the FitzAlans, while still argued, has been
discredited by the more knowledgeable researchers (such as Joe Cochoit) in
our families

So, would anyone care to hypothesize why Peter Peverel had control over
Peter de Eyton's estate until he came of age? Is it politics? Patronage? Or,
is there a family connection that I have just not been able to uncover? My
failure to find answers to these questions has been a major obstacle. Any
assistance, no matter how small, will be appreciated.

And, the full Botiler/Butler story would be appreciated-- in a nutshell or
otherwise.

By the Way, Are the Vernons of Malpas (Cheshire) and Verdons the same family
or completely different?



Rick Eaton

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