Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

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Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 des 2004 19:01:02

Saturday, 4 December, 2004


Dear Rosie, Cris, Douglas, Todd, Gordon, et al.,

In a previous thread there was discussion of the identification
of the wife of Nicholas de Stafford (d. ca. 1 Aug 1287) as the
daughter of Sir Geoffrey de Langley and his 2nd wife Maud de
Brightwell [1]. There was discussion in that thread of the
possibility that Maud may have been a daughter of Henry de Albini
[de Albiniaco] and his wife Christine, daughter and heiress of
Nicholas de Coventry. There may have been a near relationship
between Maud de Brightwell and Christine, but evidence now shows
that Maud de Brightwell was not the daughter of Henry de Albini.

Charter evidence provided by Dr. Coss in The Langley Cartulary
has been found to identify Maud as the daughter of Robert de
Brightwell, of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. She received a
gift (evidently as her maritagium) from her brother John de
Brightwell of the lands in Brightwell, Ewelme & c. previously
cited, as shown in a partial extract of a particular charter:

' 38. c. September 1236

Charter of John de Bryhtwell giving to Geoffrey de Langley and
Matilda his wife, and to the heirs who will issue from Matilda, the
gift which he made to the aforesaid Matilda his sister, namely the
entire land with all appurtenances which Robert de Bryhtwell, his
father, held and he held, or will in any way accrue to him in the
vill of Brightwell (Bryhtwell), and the entire land which Robert
his father held and he held or will accrue to him in the vill of
Ewelme with appurtenances, and 2s. rent which Robert held and he
held in the vill of Hawridge (Haurugge) with all other issues and
profits from the said tenement and with all appurtenances, and the
entire land and tenement which Robert held and he held or will
accrue to him with appurtenances in the vill of Standhill
(Standelve),...' [2]

An analysis of the charters edited by Dr. Coss in fact provides
the following chart of the descent of Maud de Brightwell from
Alfred (or Aluredus) de Brightwell, brother of Roland or Rolland
Haget:

__________________________________
I I
Alfred de Brightwell Rolland Haget
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
I
I
Richard fitz Alfred de Brightwell
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
_______I_____________________________________
I I
Robert de Brightwell Salinus [Colinus ?]
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. de Brightwell
d. bef 25 Sept 1236
_____I_____________________________________________
I I
John de Brightwell Maud = Sir Geoffrey
of Brightwell and Ewelme de Brightwell I de Langley
d. aft Sept 1236 I
V


A more detailed pedigree will follow in a subsequent post to
this thread. Also, the relevant charters provided by Dr. Coss
will appear subsequently (not included in the first two posts due
to size constraints).

This will add to the known ancestry of the Barons of Stafford,
subsequently Earls of Stafford. Further, the ancestry of a
wide-ranging group of descendants (list members and royalty) will
also be affected. Additional research in the publications of
K.S. B. Keats-Rohan (e.g. Domesday Descendants) may in fact
further trace this ancestry, as likely Roland Haget and Alfred
de Brightwell had a parent or grandparent among the tenants in
England at Domesday Book (1086).

Any relevant comment, criticism or further documentation is
welcome, as always.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious et al., <Re: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife
of Nicholas de Stafford>, SGM, Oct 2004.

[2] Peter R. Coss, ed., The Langley Cartulary (Stratford upon
Avon: printed for the Dugdale Society, 1980), pp. 9-10, No. 38.

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 05 des 2004 01:01:02

John, et al.,

I took your cue to search DD and found several references to Haget
(pp.1001-1002), but nothing that links to Alfred is obvious. I didn't find
anything in DP. Here's what I found:

Haget, Rolland
Son of Bertram I Haget. Benefactor of St. Peter's York (EYC i, 236). He
was dead by 1165, when his heir was his brother William.

Haget, Bertram
The Haget family apparently descends from the Aghete who was the English
predecessor of Norman d'Arcy (1086) in the Lincolnshire manor of Wotton.
Occurs in the 1140s-60s as a tenant of Mowbray and Richmond. Brother of
Faritius. Father of Bertram II, Geoffrey, Roland, Oliver, and William. His
two fees of Mowbray were held in 1166 by his son William.

There are also Haget listings for Faritius, Gaufrid, Radulf, and Willelm.

Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: Therav3@aol.com [mailto:Therav3@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 9:52 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Saturday, 4 December, 2004


Dear Rosie, Cris, Douglas, Todd, Gordon, et al.,

In a previous thread there was discussion of the identification
of the wife of Nicholas de Stafford (d. ca. 1 Aug 1287) as the
daughter of Sir Geoffrey de Langley and his 2nd wife Maud de
Brightwell [1]. There was discussion in that thread of the
possibility that Maud may have been a daughter of Henry de Albini
[de Albiniaco] and his wife Christine, daughter and heiress of
Nicholas de Coventry. There may have been a near relationship
between Maud de Brightwell and Christine, but evidence now shows
that Maud de Brightwell was not the daughter of Henry de Albini.

Charter evidence provided by Dr. Coss in The Langley Cartulary
has been found to identify Maud as the daughter of Robert de
Brightwell, of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. She received a
gift (evidently as her maritagium) from her brother John de
Brightwell of the lands in Brightwell, Ewelme & c. previously
cited, as shown in a partial extract of a particular charter:

' 38. c. September 1236

Charter of John de Bryhtwell giving to Geoffrey de Langley and
Matilda his wife, and to the heirs who will issue from Matilda, the
gift which he made to the aforesaid Matilda his sister, namely the
entire land with all appurtenances which Robert de Bryhtwell, his
father, held and he held, or will in any way accrue to him in the
vill of Brightwell (Bryhtwell), and the entire land which Robert
his father held and he held or will accrue to him in the vill of
Ewelme with appurtenances, and 2s. rent which Robert held and he
held in the vill of Hawridge (Haurugge) with all other issues and
profits from the said tenement and with all appurtenances, and the
entire land and tenement which Robert held and he held or will
accrue to him with appurtenances in the vill of Standhill
(Standelve),...' [2]

An analysis of the charters edited by Dr. Coss in fact provides
the following chart of the descent of Maud de Brightwell from
Alfred (or Aluredus) de Brightwell, brother of Roland or Rolland
Haget:

__________________________________
I I
Alfred de Brightwell Rolland Haget
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
I
I
Richard fitz Alfred de Brightwell
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
_______I_____________________________________
I I
Robert de Brightwell Salinus [Colinus ?]
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. de Brightwell
d. bef 25 Sept 1236
_____I_____________________________________________
I I
John de Brightwell Maud = Sir Geoffrey
of Brightwell and Ewelme de Brightwell I de Langley
d. aft Sept 1236 I
V


A more detailed pedigree will follow in a subsequent post to
this thread. Also, the relevant charters provided by Dr. Coss
will appear subsequently (not included in the first two posts due
to size constraints).

This will add to the known ancestry of the Barons of Stafford,
subsequently Earls of Stafford. Further, the ancestry of a
wide-ranging group of descendants (list members and royalty) will
also be affected. Additional research in the publications of
K.S. B. Keats-Rohan (e.g. Domesday Descendants) may in fact
further trace this ancestry, as likely Roland Haget and Alfred
de Brightwell had a parent or grandparent among the tenants in
England at Domesday Book (1086).

Any relevant comment, criticism or further documentation is
welcome, as always.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious et al., <Re: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife
of Nicholas de Stafford>, SGM, Oct 2004.

[2] Peter R. Coss, ed., The Langley Cartulary (Stratford upon
Avon: printed for the Dugdale Society, 1980), pp. 9-10, No. 38.

Gordon Kirkemo

RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Gordon Kirkemo » 05 des 2004 09:21:02

John,

Happy to oblige:

Haget, Faritius
Faritius brother of Bertram I occurs c.1147. Perhaps the same as Faritius
brother of Vivian, occurs post 1160.

Haget, Gaufrid
Son of Bertram I Haget and brother of Bertram II, both of whom he had
succeeded by c.1165/71. Married Alice, daughter of William of Friston, by
whom he had issue Geoffrey (d.v.p.), Ralph, abbot of Fountains (1170-90),
Agnes wife of Alan fitz Brien of Bedale, Gundreda, Alice, wife of Jordan de
St. Mary, Lucy, wife of Peter fitz Toret.

Haget, Radulf
Held half a fee of the bishop of Durham in 1166. In 1196 Ralph Haket, lord
of Tawton, Yorkshire, gave a charter for St. John's, Pontefract, with his
brothers and tenants Oliver and Baldwin (Cart.,p.379).

Haget, Willelm
Son of Bertram I Haget, whom he succeeded by 1165. Heir also of his
brothers Bertram II and Roland. In 1164/65 he accounted for the land of his
nephew ('nepotis'). In 1166 he held two fees at Bainton, Caldwell, Dacre,
Easedike, Follifoot, Healaugh and Wighill in Yorkshire from Roger de
Mowbray.

Let me know if you need the original source documents that are cited.

Gordon



-----Original Message-----
From: Therav3@aol.com [mailto:Therav3@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 10:56 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Sunday, 5 December, 2004


Dear Gordon,

Many thanks for those cites from DD. This does appear to be the
correct
Roland (Rolland) Haget based on the chronology - the note given by Coss for
Langley Cart. No. 20, the gift by Rolland Haget to his brother 'Aluredus'
(Alfred) in Brightwell was witnessed by Halmandus/Haneladus de Bydon, whom
Coss
notes held a knight's fee in Wallingford, Berks. in 1166 [cites Red Book of
the
Exchequer I:310]. As we have Alfred's great-grandchildren John de
Brightwell
and Maud (de Brightwell) de Langley as active adults in 1236 and likely
before,
it seems unlikely there was a subsequent generation (children or nephews of
Roland Haget of DD 1002) where we would find another Roland.

I wonder if I could trouble you re: the other Haget refs. - esp.
Gaufrid
- this may be helpful in supporting/disproving placement of Alfred as
another
brother among the sons of Bertram 'I' Haget. The name Oliver should be
distinct from Alfred/Alured, but I wonder if perhaps this might be an error
in the
doc. cited by KSB (or a prior reader) wherein Alfred was rendered as Oliver,
or similar?

Thanks again!

John

Gjest

RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 des 2004 09:21:02

Sunday, 5 December, 2004


Dear Gordon,

Many thanks for those cites from DD. This does appear to be the correct
Roland (Rolland) Haget based on the chronology - the note given by Coss for
Langley Cart. No. 20, the gift by Rolland Haget to his brother 'Aluredus'
(Alfred) in Brightwell was witnessed by Halmandus/Haneladus de Bydon, whom Coss
notes held a knight's fee in Wallingford, Berks. in 1166 [cites Red Book of the
Exchequer I:310]. As we have Alfred's great-grandchildren John de Brightwell
and Maud (de Brightwell) de Langley as active adults in 1236 and likely before,
it seems unlikely there was a subsequent generation (children or nephews of
Roland Haget of DD 1002) where we would find another Roland.

I wonder if I could trouble you re: the other Haget refs. - esp. Gaufrid
- this may be helpful in supporting/disproving placement of Alfred as another
brother among the sons of Bertram 'I' Haget. The name Oliver should be
distinct from Alfred/Alured, but I wonder if perhaps this might be an error in the
doc. cited by KSB (or a prior reader) wherein Alfred was rendered as Oliver,
or similar?

Thanks again!

John

Gjest

RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 des 2004 20:41:02

Sunday, 5 December, 2004


Dear Cris,

Glad you found this thread worth a few Nicholas.

There was a prior thread which ye may have missed concerning
the relationship between Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford,
and John de Peyto [see <CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife of
Nicholas de Stafford>, posts dated October 2004]. From Ralph de
Stafford's identifying John de Peyto as "Johanne de Peyto
consanguineo nostro" [charter to the priory of Cold Norton, co.
Oxon., Monasticon Anglicanum VI/1:421], and Rosie's providing the
chart from Prof. Coss' Langley Cartulary, I produced the
following (see post #3 of that thread):


Walter de Langley
of Pinley, co. Warwicks.
I
I
1) = Sir Geoffrey de Langley = 2) Matilda
I of Bisseley and Pinley : de Brightwell
I fl. 1236-7, d. 1274 : [see 1. below]
________I____________ :
I I :
Walter de Langley <siblings> NN de = Nicholas
d. 1280 Langley I de Stafford
= Alice le Bret I d. ca. 1287

___I_____________________ I
I I I I
<siblings> Robert de Langley Edmund de Stafford
d. bef 1329 1st Lord (Baron) Stafford
I d. bef 12 Aug 1308
_______________I I

I __________________I______

I I I
Margery de Langley RALPH DE STAFFORD RICHARD DE
= William de Peyto 1st Earl of Stafford STAFFORD
I <grantor> < witness >

I I
I I
JOHN DE PEYTO HUGH DE STAFFORD
<witness> 2nd Earl of Stafford
< witness >



Given that Sir Geoffrey de Langley and Matilda de Brightwell
were married before 25 Sept 1236, and Edmund de Stafford (son of
Nicholas de Stafford and NN de Langley) was born 17 July 1273, it
would appear most certain that Edmund de Stafford's mother would
have been the daughter of Matilda de Brightwell and not a former
spouse - otherwise she (Edmund's mother) would have been aged 37
or older at the time of the birth of her son and heir (and only
known child).

The identification of the maritagium of Nicholas de Stafford's
wife would be of great interest. The fact that the lands of the
Brightwell inheritance went from Robert de Langley to his
half-brother Sir Geoffrey is an interesting machination much
discussed by Dr. Coss and others: the fact that Robert de
Langley's sister had no (identifiable) participation in the
inheritance appears to be a peculiar quirk in a peculiar
arrangement.

Cheers,

John

John Ravilious

Re: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av John Ravilious » 05 des 2004 20:52:19

Sunday, 5 December, 2004


Dear Gordon,

That's a major help - many thanks for those details.

I wager that the cartulary for Healaugh priory is the source for
much of the detail on the Haget family; unfortunately, the website
with the Monasticon Anglicanum texts is not cooperating at present [I
think the Healaugh charters are in vol. 6(1)]. Hopefully I can get
access to that in the next few days, and (with the needed details
extracted) construct an accurate chart.

It does appear from what you've provided, that Alfred de
Brightwell (aka Alfred or Alured Haget) acquired lands in Oxfordshire,
some from his brother Rolland Haget and others possibly through
marriage or service, and established his family in south-central
England. The rest of the family seem to have gravitated to Yorkshire
(Healaugh, Bainton & c.), and their attachment to Fountains Abbey and
Healaugh seems to confirm that.

Thanks again; will write as soon as I have more to add (in short
order I hope).

Cheers,

John



kirkemo@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKHOGEECKEOAA.kirkemo@comcast.net>...
John,

Happy to oblige:

Haget, Faritius
Faritius brother of Bertram I occurs c.1147. Perhaps the same as Faritius
brother of Vivian, occurs post 1160.

Haget, Gaufrid
Son of Bertram I Haget and brother of Bertram II, both of whom he had
succeeded by c.1165/71. Married Alice, daughter of William of Friston, by
whom he had issue Geoffrey (d.v.p.), Ralph, abbot of Fountains (1170-90),
Agnes wife of Alan fitz Brien of Bedale, Gundreda, Alice, wife of Jordan de
St. Mary, Lucy, wife of Peter fitz Toret.

Haget, Radulf
Held half a fee of the bishop of Durham in 1166. In 1196 Ralph Haket, lord
of Tawton, Yorkshire, gave a charter for St. John's, Pontefract, with his
brothers and tenants Oliver and Baldwin (Cart.,p.379).

Haget, Willelm
Son of Bertram I Haget, whom he succeeded by 1165. Heir also of his
brothers Bertram II and Roland. In 1164/65 he accounted for the land of his
nephew ('nepotis'). In 1166 he held two fees at Bainton, Caldwell, Dacre,
Easedike, Follifoot, Healaugh and Wighill in Yorkshire from Roger de
Mowbray.

Let me know if you need the original source documents that are cited.

Gordon



-----Original Message-----
From: Therav3@aol.com [mailto:Therav3@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 10:56 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Sunday, 5 December, 2004


Dear Gordon,

Many thanks for those cites from DD.

<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cristopher Nash

Re: Ancestry of NN de Langley, wife of Nicholas de Stafford

Legg inn av Cristopher Nash » 05 des 2004 23:11:01

John, this and accompanying documentation give wondrous helpful
backstory on the Brightwell/Langley connection - thanks loads for it!

Reading through it, I keep wondering whether in my (ruefully
enforced) 'sabbatical' from Gen-Med I may've missed any discussion
suggesting reasons for conviction that the wife of Nicholas de
Stafford was a da. of Sir Geoffrey? (As you'll prob. recall I was
particularly perplexed by the problem that even Coss - who was unable
to find evidence of a da. for Sir G. - described Sir G as having had
a wife before Margaret de Brightwell. And that chronology didn't seem
to rule out the possibility of a wife of Nicholas de Stafford's being
- if a Langley at all - a da. of either.) Any idears? Meantime,
whatever the Coss, lettuce enjoy this overEwelming feast. I know
I'll relish that Haget around Hogmanay!

Cris

Saturday, 4 December, 2004


Dear Rosie, Cris, Douglas, Todd, Gordon, et al.,

In a previous thread there was discussion of the identification
of the wife of Nicholas de Stafford (d. ca. 1 Aug 1287) as the
daughter of Sir Geoffrey de Langley and his 2nd wife Maud de
Brightwell [1]. There was discussion in that thread of the
possibility that Maud may have been a daughter of Henry de Albini
[de Albiniaco] and his wife Christine, daughter and heiress of
Nicholas de Coventry. There may have been a near relationship
between Maud de Brightwell and Christine, but evidence now shows
that Maud de Brightwell was not the daughter of Henry de Albini.

Charter evidence provided by Dr. Coss in The Langley Cartulary
has been found to identify Maud as the daughter of Robert de
Brightwell, of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. She received a
gift (evidently as her maritagium) from her brother John de
Brightwell of the lands in Brightwell, Ewelme & c. previously
cited, as shown in a partial extract of a particular charter:

' 38. c. September 1236

Charter of John de Bryhtwell giving to Geoffrey de Langley and
Matilda his wife, and to the heirs who will issue from Matilda, the
gift which he made to the aforesaid Matilda his sister, namely the
entire land with all appurtenances which Robert de Bryhtwell, his
father, held and he held, or will in any way accrue to him in the
vill of Brightwell (Bryhtwell), and the entire land which Robert
his father held and he held or will accrue to him in the vill of
Ewelme with appurtenances, and 2s. rent which Robert held and he
held in the vill of Hawridge (Haurugge) with all other issues and
profits from the said tenement and with all appurtenances, and the
entire land and tenement which Robert held and he held or will
accrue to him with appurtenances in the vill of Standhill
(Standelve),...' [2]

An analysis of the charters edited by Dr. Coss in fact provides
the following chart of the descent of Maud de Brightwell from
Alfred (or Aluredus) de Brightwell, brother of Roland or Rolland
Haget:

__________________________________
I I
Alfred de Brightwell Rolland Haget
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
I
I
Richard fitz Alfred de Brightwell
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon.
_______I_____________________________________
I I
Robert de Brightwell Salinus [Colinus ?]
of Brightwell and Ewelme, co. Oxon. de Brightwell
d. bef 25 Sept 1236
_____I_____________________________________________
I I
John de Brightwell Maud = Sir Geoffrey
of Brightwell and Ewelme de Brightwell I de Langley
d. aft Sept 1236 I
V


A more detailed pedigree will follow in a subsequent post to
this thread. Also, the relevant charters provided by Dr. Coss
will appear subsequently (not included in the first two posts due
to size constraints).

This will add to the known ancestry of the Barons of Stafford,
subsequently Earls of Stafford. Further, the ancestry of a
wide-ranging group of descendants (list members and royalty) will
also be affected. Additional research in the publications of
K.S. B. Keats-Rohan (e.g. Domesday Descendants) may in fact
further trace this ancestry, as likely Roland Haget and Alfred
de Brightwell had a parent or grandparent among the tenants in
England at Domesday Book (1086).

Any relevant comment, criticism or further documentation is
welcome, as always.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious et al., <Re: CP Confirmation: NN de Langley, wife
of Nicholas de Stafford>, SGM, Oct 2004.

[2] Peter R. Coss, ed., The Langley Cartulary (Stratford upon
Avon: printed for the Dugdale Society, 1980), pp. 9-10, No. 38.


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