Roquefeuil Ancestry

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Matthew Rockefeller

Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Matthew Rockefeller » 01 des 2004 02:46:39

I have decided to post a quick little summary lineage of what I have
so far, but I am certainly not done researching this. I didn't even
include any information for the wives in this run through, but here it
goes.

Zakkai-Yehuda, Exilarch (d 771), a descendant of Exilarch Bostanai and
his wife Izdadwar who was herself a descendant of Persian kings,
Byzantine Emperors, and allegedly the prophet Zoroaster; Exilarch or
Resh Galuta meaning Head of the Exile, a representative of King David
married
Sussannah

Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda

St. William of Gellone, Duke of Septimania (d May 28, 812)
married
Orible

Bernard, Chamberlain to Emperor Louis, Duke of Septimania, Count of
Toulouse and Barcelona (d May 844)
married June 24, 824
Dhuoda
Children, more research currently underway:
Rothilde married Vulgrim, Count of Angouleme
William II, Count of Toulouse
Bernard Vitellus, Marquis of Septimania, Count of Toulouse, Viscount
of Rouergue, Limoges, Carcassonne, Razes, Quercy, Albi and Nimes
Richilde married Boniface
Aton, see below
? Humfrid

Aton, Viscount of Rouergue and Albi (d ca 900), the strange name Aton
is Hebrew for donkey
married
Aissene
Children
Bernard, see below
Bigo, Viscount of Toulouse, the father of Aton, Viscount of Toulouse

Bernard, Viscount of Albi (d ca 940)
married
Guillemette, called a cousin and was probably descended from William
of Gellone

Bernard, Count of Melgueil, Albi, and Nimes, Lord of Anduze (d after
942)
married
Magdalena

Almeradus, Marquis of Gothia, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d ca 1000)
married
Blitgarde

Bernard, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d ca 1029)
married 1013
Arsinde de Beziers

Bermond, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d 1054)
married
Astrige

Bernard II, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d after 1078)
married
Adelais de Mandagout

Raymond I, Lord of Anduze, Alais, Barres, and Portes (ca 1050 - after
1114)
married
Ermengarde de Melgueil

Bernard III, Lord of Anduze and Alais (ca 1080 - after 1162)
married
Sibylle de Narbonne

Bertrand IV, Lord of Anduze, Alais, St. Bonnet, and Meyrueis (ca 1110
- 1169)
married
Adela de Roquefeuil, heiress of the Roquefeuil family whose first
traced member traditionally voted for Hugh Capet as king

Raymond de Roquefeuil, Viscount of Cheyssels, Lord of Roquefeuil and
Meyrueis (ca 1140 - between 1200 and 1204)
married 1161
Guillemette de Montpellier, descended from a wealth of nobility and
royalty

Arnaud de Roquefeuil, Comptor of Nant, Lord of Algues (d 1242), had
Guillaume illegitimately who was subsequently legitimized

Lieut. Guillaume de Roquefeuil, Governor of Montpellier, Aragonese
Ambassador to France and Savoy, Lord of Versols (d 1280)
married
Ricarde de Bonvoisin
Children:
Jean, see below
Raimond, ancestor of the Rocafuls in Spain

Jean de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols (d July 16, 1304)
married 1304
Helix de Roquefeuil, a cousin

Guillaume de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols
married 1329
Helix de Barriere

Jean de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols (d after 1362)
married
Marguerite de Bar

Guillaume de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols (d after 1403)
married November 7, 1371
Helene de La Vergne

Rigaud de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols
married May 24, 1411
Beatrice de Maffre
Children:
Adhemar, see below
Guillaume, ancestor of the Roquefeuil-Montpeyroux family, which is
still extant

Adhemar de Roquefeuil, Lord of Versols (d May 2, 1477)
married June 13, 1434
Florette de Capluc
Children:
Jean, ancestor of further Roquefeuils, now extinct in the male line
Augier, ancestor of the Rockefellers
Guillaume, Commander of Versols
Berengar
Beatrix
Helene
Guibert, priest

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2004 03:21:01

This genealogy could be interesting. However posting it without any sources makes it more-than-likely spurious.

People who post without sources are trying to convince unsuspecting readers that they actually HAVE sources to back up what they are posting :)

Have a nice day!
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2004 03:31:02

"Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6, 793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the title King of the Jews;"

Yes the Pseudo-Philomena has an account of how the "King of the Jews" (a title NOT granted by Charlemagne, but alledgedly HELD by the person) was instruemental in the traitorous surrender of Narbonne. However this LEGEND dates from 400 HUNDRED years after the fact.

Next fluff piece?
Will Johnson

JF Blanc

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av JF Blanc » 01 des 2004 15:31:01

I have decided to post a quick little summary lineage of what I have
so far, but I am certainly not done researching this. I didn't even
include any information for the wives in this run through, but here it
goes.

Zakkai-Yehuda, Exilarch (d 771), a descendant of Exilarch Bostanai and
his wife Izdadwar who was herself a descendant of Persian kings,
Byzantine Emperors, and allegedly the prophet Zoroaster; Exilarch or
Resh Galuta meaning Head of the Exile, a representative of King David
married
Sussannah

Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda /SNIP/

1. Many scholars refute this lineage. Have you got a more
reliable evidence?
2. About the Roquefeuil ancestor of the Rockefeller, could you
develop the lineage?

Best regards,

Jean-François BLANC - Genealogia
genealogia@jfblanc.pp.ru
http://blanc.mfoudi.online.fr &
http://gw.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=bln

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 01 des 2004 16:19:34

In article <1623fca6.0411301746.2c122f98@posting.google.com>,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com (Matthew Rockefeller) wrote:

I have decided to post a quick little summary lineage of what I have
so far, but I am certainly not done researching this. I didn't even
include any information for the wives in this run through, but here it
goes.

Zakkai-Yehuda, Exilarch (d 771), a descendant of Exilarch Bostanai and
his wife Izdadwar who was herself a descendant of Persian kings,
Byzantine Emperors, and allegedly the prophet Zoroaster; Exilarch or
Resh Galuta meaning Head of the Exile, a representative of King David
married
Sussannah

Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda

I know of no convincing rehabilitation of the Makhir-Theuderic identity
thesis. Can you provide a concise argument for this?

Can you provide documentation or a compelling argument that a man named
Theuderic was ever 'Duke of Septimania'?

Can you provide documentation for the death of a duke named Theuderic on
6 July 793?

Can you provide a documented argument for the descent of the 9th-century
Manasses from this Theuderic? And can you trace Manasses' place as an
ancestor of any of the Crusader kings of Jerusalem?

St. William of Gellone, Duke of Septimania (d May 28, 812)
married
Orible

Just 'orible, that's what this line is!

But seriously: The maternity of Bernard of Septimania is unknown, and
the charter evidence gives two wives to William, neither of which is
named 'Orable', which is a name given to a wife of 'Guillaume d'Orange'
in some of the 11th- or 12th-century Chansons de Geste that feature him
as a character.

Bernard, Chamberlain to Emperor Louis, Duke of Septimania, Count of
Toulouse and Barcelona (d May 844)
married June 24, 824
Dhuoda
Children,
...
Aton, see below
...


Can you provide a concise argument for placing this Ato, at the head of
this vicecomital line in Rouergue, as son of Bernard of Septimania? Is
it purely onomastics and/or chronology? Is this hypothesized by Claudie
Amado's work?

Aton, Viscount of Rouergue and Albi (d ca 900), the strange name Aton
is Hebrew for donkey...

<...>

I would very much like to see a short documented discussion of each of
these points. The ones I have pointed out are all non-canonical,
unsupported (to the best of my knowledge) by any obvious documentary
evidence, and bear a heavy, heavy burden of proof.

I would be pleased if this all turned out to be true, but I am skeptical.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2004 17:01:02

Isn't this connection between Makhir/Theodoric and St. William of Gellone,
more or less, what Zuckerman theorized in his *A Jewish Princedom in Feudal
France* (1972)? And isn't this (again, more or less) the theory that Nat
Taylor, and others(?), have debunked both on this list and in print over the
past few years? I know the connection between the d'Anduze and the de
Roquefeuils is in the *ES* but how well documented is this connection between
the d'Anduze and St. William de Gellone?

Jeff Duvall


<matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com>:

Snip:
Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda

St. William of Gellone, Duke of Septimania (d May 28, 812)
married
Orible

Bernard, Chamberlain to Emperor Louis, Duke of Septimania, Count of
Toulouse and Barcelona (d May 844)
married June 24, 824
Dhuoda
Children, more research currently underway:
Rothilde married Vulgrim, Count of Angouleme
William II, Count of Toulouse
Bernard Vitellus, Marquis of Septimania, Count of Toulouse, Viscount
of Rouergue, Limoges, Carcassonne, Razes, Quercy, Albi and Nimes
Richilde married Boniface
Aton, see below
? Humfrid

Aton, Viscount of Rouergue and Albi (d ca 900), the strange name Aton
is Hebrew for donkey
married
Aissene
Children
Bernard, see below
Bigo, Viscount of Toulouse, the father of Aton, Viscount of Toulouse

Bernard, Viscount of Albi (d ca 940)
married
Guillemette, called a cousin and was probably descended from William
of Gellone

Bernard, Count of Melgueil, Albi, and Nimes, Lord of Anduze (d after
942)
married
Magdalena

Almeradus, Marquis of Gothia, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d ca 1000)
married
Blitgarde

Bernard, Lord of Anduze and Alais (d ca 1029)
married 1013
Arsinde de Beziers

Big Snip

Don Stone

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Don Stone » 01 des 2004 23:16:24

Matthew Rockefeller wrote:

I have decided to post a quick little summary lineage of what I have
so far, but I am certainly not done researching this. I didn't even
include any information for the wives in this run through, but here it
goes.

Zakkai-Yehuda, Exilarch (d 771), a descendant of Exilarch Bostanai and
his wife Izdadwar who was herself a descendant of Persian kings,
Byzantine Emperors, and allegedly the prophet Zoroaster; Exilarch or
Resh Galuta meaning Head of the Exile, a representative of King David
married
Sussannah

Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda

You appear to be following the hypothesized parentage of Makhir proposed by
Charles Bryant-Abrahams and followed by David Hughes. CBA cites as his
authority for this parentage the article on Natronai in Encyclopedia
Judaica, but that article does not appear to support the claimed parentage.
CBA may have intended to refer to another article earlier in the same
volume, namely the article on Narbonne (col. 827-830). This article does
mention R. Machir b. Judah (in col. 828), saying that Charlemagne invited
him to become the founder of a dynasty of “Jewish kings,” according to
Abraham ibn Daud.

However, this information may not be correct. I received the following
information from David Kelley as part of a rough draft of a discussion of
related issues: “It may be pointed out that the Encyclopedia Judaica, sub
‘Narbonne’, an article by Bernard Blumenkranz, identifies Makhir of Narbonne
with Makhir ben Judah of the tenth century A.D. in Germany, which seems to
me preposterous. It is there alleged that the added material in the Sefer
ha kabbalah includes an identification of Makhir as a son of a Judah. It
does not, unless he has access to a manuscript of those additions which
differs from the published version.”

-- Don Stone

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2004 07:02:52

Thanks Don for a thorough and well stated analysis. That being said I
will choose your post to expand my message and answer the general
questions on.

As I stated this was a quick summary lineage for those who were anxious
to see what I had so far. Again I state that I am not done researching
it.

First, I want to make a correction. I'm beginning to think that Aton as
the son of Bernard of Septimania is incorrect. In fact, I've thought
that all along but a fellow researcher has insisted to me that this was
correct, but the evidence just isn't there.

David Hughes has followed my inital research and expanded upon it which
points to Aton being the son of Bernard Plantevelue, who was actually
the last to hold Albi and Rouergue before Aton, and we know Aton
father's name was Bernard and that this Bernard had previously held his
son's lands. My other theory was Bernard Vitellus was his father, but
the dates won't comply, and I don't seriously think it is Bernard of
Septimania, so the only remaining candidate, and by far the best, is
Bernard Plantevelue. The latter Bernard held the position of Nasi, and
took up the family seat in Narbonne in his early career. The d'Anduze
and Roquefeuil families also held their connection to the family in not
only naming, but also donations. They not only donated quite a few
funds to the abbey of Saint-Guilhem-le-Desert, but also provided
abbots. That connection has not be forgotten
http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_eve ... B899F84%7D

Yes, Bryant-Abrahams to me has the done the research justice. Natronai
and Zakkai Yehuda were rivals to the exilarchy and the latter
eventually won, and he was the father of Makhir. Makhir had a brother
named Gershom, who may be identified with Girart, Count of Roussillon,
in the later tales. He was the father of Solomon, Marquis of the
Spanish March, Count of Roussillon, himself the father of Bernard
Plantevelue, Marquis of the Spanish March. There is later in Germany
also a rabbi named Gershom ben Judah, who was actually the brother of
the Makhir ben Judah whom you mention. I think it should be kept in
mind that Makhir, and probably his brother, would have been a very,
very important figure in his time and it would only be natural for
people to name their children after him, and Judah was a very common
Jewish name. Makhir was supposedly hailed King of the Jews and think of
the influence of his immediate descendants. Bernard of Septimania
practically ruled France for a time. It reminds me of how many Arthurs
popped up shortly after the time King Arthur supposedly lived in.

Matthew


Don Stone wrote:
Matthew Rockefeller wrote:

I have decided to post a quick little summary lineage of what I
have
so far, but I am certainly not done researching this. I didn't even
include any information for the wives in this run through, but here
it
goes.

Zakkai-Yehuda, Exilarch (d 771), a descendant of Exilarch Bostanai
and
his wife Izdadwar who was herself a descendant of Persian kings,
Byzantine Emperors, and allegedly the prophet Zoroaster; Exilarch
or
Resh Galuta meaning Head of the Exile, a representative of King
David
married
Sussannah

Makhir Theodoric, King of the Jews, Duke of Septimania (d July 6,
793), came to France at Charlemagne's request and was granted the
title King of the Jews; set up court in Narbonne and created a
school
there which attracted pupils from around the world; one of his
sons,
Nehemiah "Aimeric", was the father of Doue, wife of Childebrand III
of
Perracy who had a grandchild named Manasses who was an ancestor of
the
later kings of Jerusalem in the crusader states
married
Alda

You appear to be following the hypothesized parentage of Makhir
proposed by
Charles Bryant-Abrahams and followed by David Hughes. CBA cites as
his
authority for this parentage the article on Natronai in Encyclopedia
Judaica, but that article does not appear to support the claimed
parentage.
CBA may have intended to refer to another article earlier in the
same
volume, namely the article on Narbonne (col. 827-830). This article
does
mention R. Machir b. Judah (in col. 828), saying that Charlemagne
invited
him to become the founder of a dynasty of "Jewish kings,"
according to
Abraham ibn Daud.

However, this information may not be correct. I received the
following
information from David Kelley as part of a rough draft of a
discussion of
related issues: "It may be pointed out that the Encyclopedia
Judaica, sub
'Narbonne', an article by Bernard Blumenkranz, identifies Makhir
of Narbonne
with Makhir ben Judah of the tenth century A.D. in Germany, which
seems to
me preposterous. It is there alleged that the added material in the
Sefer
ha kabbalah includes an identification of Makhir as a son of a Judah.
It
does not, unless he has access to a manuscript of those additions
which
differs from the published version."

-- Don Stone

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2004 07:50:06

One more quick note. Gershom and Makhir were very prominent Jewish
scholars in that time, and were well known to all the Jews in Europe
who looked to their advice. Abraham Ibn Daud HaLevi was born only 70
years after the death of Gershom, and considering Gershom's influence
over the Jews who called him "the Light of the Exile", I doubt Ibn Daud
would have got him or his brother confused with the earlier Makhir and
his. Besides this Ibn Daud was not some ordinary Jew writing, he was a
renowed kabbalist, the deepest form of a Jewish student, who would have
valued history more so than other Jews.

Also, I am going to be busy starting tomorrow until late Sunday when I
get home, so I may not be able to respond to posts or emails until
Monday, but I will get back to all of you.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2004 18:21:01

In a message dated 12/1/2004 10:11:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com writes:

Makhir was supposedly hailed King of the Jews

As I pointed out, this is legendary, writen down 400 years after the fact.

Don Stone

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Don Stone » 02 des 2004 20:21:35

matthew_rockefeller@yahoo.com wrote:

One more quick note. Gershom and Makhir were very prominent Jewish
scholars in that time, and were well known to all the Jews in Europe
who looked to their advice. Abraham Ibn Daud HaLevi was born only 70
years after the death of Gershom, and considering Gershom's influence
over the Jews who called him "the Light of the Exile", I doubt Ibn Daud
would have got him or his brother confused with the earlier Makhir and
his. Besides this Ibn Daud was not some ordinary Jew writing, he was a
renowed kabbalist, the deepest form of a Jewish student, who would have
valued history more so than other Jews.

I don't think Ibn Daud was confused, but I think Bernard Blumenkranz was
confused when he wrote the Encyclopedia Judaica article on Narbonne. He
says "Another source (the addition to the _Sefer ha-Kabbalah_ of Abraham ibn
Daud) states that Charlemagne invited R. Machir b. Judah, younger brother of
Gershom b. Judah to become the founder of the dynasty of 'Jewish kings.'"

If this statement is correct and Blumenkranz is not confused, where can I
find the statement by ibn Daud that he refers to? It doesn't appear to be
in Gerson D. Cohen's _A Critical Edition with a Translation and Notes of the
Book of Tradition (Sefer ha-Qabbalah) by Abraham Ibn Daud_ (Philadelphia:
Jewish Publication Society of America, 1967).

-- Don Stone


Don Stone

Re: Roquefeuil Ancestry

Legg inn av Don Stone » 06 des 2004 00:33:58

Don Stone wrote:

I don't think Ibn Daud was confused, but I think Bernard Blumenkranz was
confused when he wrote the Encyclopedia Judaica article on Narbonne. He
says "Another source (the addition to the _Sefer ha-Kabbalah_ of Abraham
ibn Daud) states that Charlemagne invited R. Machir b. Judah, younger
brother of Gershom b. Judah to become the founder of the dynasty of
'Jewish kings.'"

If this statement is correct and Blumenkranz is not confused, where can I
find the statement by ibn Daud that he refers to? It doesn't appear to
be in Gerson D. Cohen's _A Critical Edition with a Translation and Notes
of the Book of Tradition (Sefer ha-Qabbalah) by Abraham Ibn Daud_
(Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1967).

The following paragraph is the beginning of the passage that refers to
Makhir from the addendum to the Sefer ha-Kabbalah of Abraham ibn Daud:

The King Charles sent to the King of Babylon [the Caliph of Baghdad]
requesting that he despatch one of his Jews of the seed of royalty of the
House of David. He hearkened and sent him one from there, a magnate and
sage, Rabbi Makhir by name. And [Charles] settled him in Narbonne, the
capital city, and planted him there, and gave him a great possession
(ahuzah) there at the time he captured it from the Ishmaelites.

Neither in this paragraph nor in the material that follows it is there any
indication that Makhir was the son of Judah.

-- Don Stone

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