Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

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Le Bateman

Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Le Bateman » 28 nov 2004 03:21:01

Can someone tell me if, Crinan The Thane and Crinan Lay Abbot of Dunkeld
are one and the same person, or are they different people?
Le

Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 28 nov 2004 03:51:01

At 08:20 PM 27/11/2004 -0600, you wrote:
Can someone tell me if, Crinan The Thane and Crinan Lay Abbot of Dunkeld
are one and the same person, or are they different people?
Le


Crinan, abbot of Dunkeld, married Malcolm II's daughter, Bethoc, and
they had Duncan I (1034-1040) who was the victim of MacBeth. Given
the similarity of names many assume that Crinan the thane of Northumberland,
father of Maldred, was one and the same person. Maldred was head of the
Earls of Northumberland which turned into the Earls of Dunbar. I have
seen little to support that the two Crinan's to be the same person.

Best wishes!

Peter


Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada

Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 29 nov 2004 03:21:02

I believe the source for this is Symeon of Durham in his
Historia Regum. He relates how Gospatric son of Maldred
son of Crinan was Earl of Northumberland and later obtained
Dunbar. I don't mean to imply that Maldred was Earl
but he was given as the father of Gospatric. Crinan
is given as the father of Maldred but is not styled. It is
other later sources that make him a thane and equate him
with Crinan abbot of Dunkeld. I was just pointing out
that the association of the two Crinans is speculation.


Peter

At 11:54 PM 27/11/2004 -0600, you wrote:
I am perplexed I assumed that Gospatric was ancestor to the Earls of Dunbar.
He is considered to be the First Chief of the Clan Dunbar.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld


At 08:20 PM 27/11/2004 -0600, you wrote:
Can someone tell me if, Crinan The Thane and Crinan Lay Abbot of Dunkeld
are one and the same person, or are they different people?
Le


Crinan, abbot of Dunkeld, married Malcolm II's daughter, Bethoc, and
they had Duncan I (1034-1040) who was the victim of MacBeth. Given
the similarity of names many assume that Crinan the thane of Northumberland,
father of Maldred, was one and the same person. Maldred was head of the
Earls of Northumberland which turned into the Earls of Dunbar. I have
seen little to support that the two Crinan's to be the same person.

Best wishes!

Peter


Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada



Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 30 nov 2004 05:16:02

Further to my last post. the following appears to be the
reference in Historia Regum regarding the Earls of Northumberland/
Dunbar.

Quo mortuo, Cospatricus, filius Maldredi filii Crinani, Willelmum
regum adiens, multaemptum pecunia adeptus est comitatum
Northymbrensium. Nam ex materno sanguine attinebat ad eum
honor illius comitatus. Erat enim ex matre Algitha, filia Uchtredi
comitis, quam habuit ex Algiva filia Agelredi Regis. Hanc Algitham
pater dedit in conjugium Maldredo filio Crinani. Tenuit autem
comitatum, donec rex causis ex supradictis ei auferret. Fugiens
ergo ad Malcolmum non multo post Flandriam navigio petit. Cui
post aliquantum tempus Scotiam reverso, donavit ei rex supradictus
Dunbar cum adjacentibus terris in Lodoneio, ut ex his, donec lætiora
redirent tempora, se suosque procuraret. Iste Cospatricus est pater
Dolfini, Walthevi, et Cospatrici. Post Cospatricum datus est
comitatus Walthevo, Siwardi comitis filio [Symeon of Durham.
Symeonis Monachi Opera Omnia: Historia Regum. ed. Thomas
Arnold. 2 vols. (London, 1885). Vol. 2, p. 199. Rolls Series no.
75].

From what I can gather it was Skene who promoted the
connection between the two Crinans. Anyone have any
further history on this?

Best wishes!

Peter


At 10:15 PM 28/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:
I believe the source for this is Symeon of Durham in his
Historia Regum. He relates how Gospatric son of Maldred
son of Crinan was Earl of Northumberland and later obtained
Dunbar. I don't mean to imply that Maldred was Earl
but he was given as the father of Gospatric. Crinan
is given as the father of Maldred but is not styled. It is
other later sources that make him a thane and equate him
with Crinan abbot of Dunkeld. I was just pointing out
that the association of the two Crinans is speculation.


Peter

At 11:54 PM 27/11/2004 -0600, you wrote:
I am perplexed I assumed that Gospatric was ancestor to the Earls of Dunbar.
He is considered to be the First Chief of the Clan Dunbar.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld


At 08:20 PM 27/11/2004 -0600, you wrote:
Can someone tell me if, Crinan The Thane and Crinan Lay Abbot of Dunkeld
are one and the same person, or are they different people?
Le


Crinan, abbot of Dunkeld, married Malcolm II's daughter, Bethoc, and
they had Duncan I (1034-1040) who was the victim of MacBeth. Given
the similarity of names many assume that Crinan the thane of Northumberland,
father of Maldred, was one and the same person. Maldred was head of the
Earls of Northumberland which turned into the Earls of Dunbar. I have
seen little to support that the two Crinan's to be the same person.

Best wishes!

Peter


Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada







Peter A. Kincaid
Fredericton, NB, Canada

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 30 nov 2004 06:15:15

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:23:35 +0000 (UTC), 7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca
("Peter A. Kincaid") wrote:

Further to my last post. the following appears to be the
reference in Historia Regum regarding the Earls of Northumberland/
Dunbar.

Quo mortuo, Cospatricus, filius Maldredi filii Crinani, Willelmum
regum adiens, multaemptum pecunia adeptus est comitatum
Northymbrensium. Nam ex materno sanguine attinebat ad eum
honor illius comitatus. Erat enim ex matre Algitha, filia Uchtredi
comitis, quam habuit ex Algiva filia Agelredi Regis. Hanc Algitham
pater dedit in conjugium Maldredo filio Crinani. Tenuit autem
comitatum, donec rex causis ex supradictis ei auferret. Fugiens
ergo ad Malcolmum non multo post Flandriam navigio petit. Cui
post aliquantum tempus Scotiam reverso, donavit ei rex supradictus
Dunbar cum adjacentibus terris in Lodoneio, ut ex his, donec lætiora
redirent tempora, se suosque procuraret. Iste Cospatricus est pater
Dolfini, Walthevi, et Cospatrici. Post Cospatricum datus est
comitatus Walthevo, Siwardi comitis filio [Symeon of Durham.
Symeonis Monachi Opera Omnia: Historia Regum. ed. Thomas
Arnold. 2 vols. (London, 1885). Vol. 2, p. 199. Rolls Series no.
75].

From what I can gather it was Skene who promoted the
connection between the two Crinans. Anyone have any
further history on this?

Anderson's "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers" pp. 80-1 cites
vol. 1, pp. 215-6 of Symeon's work (from his "De Obsessione Dunelmi"),
which Anderson translates as:

"But afterwards when he, that is, Utred, advanced more and more in the
art of war, king Ethelred gave to him as wife his daughter Elfgiva.
And by her he had a daughter Aldgitha, whom her father gave in
marriage to Maldred, son of Crinan the thane; and by her Maldred had
Gospatric, the father of Dolfin, of Waldeve and of Gospatric."

Anderson does take some liberties in his translations (most notably
with respect to names), so the original Latin obviously needs to be
checked (which it is too late for me to do tonight).

Stewart Baldwin

Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 30 nov 2004 12:30:02

Thank you. I will obtain the Rolls series portion and
post. I did not notice this.

I presume the lineage of the Earls of Dunbar is
established by the Durham muniments (barring any
forgeries); namely

that Gospatric Earl of Dunbar was the son of
Gospatrick, Earl, brother of Dolfin [Durham Cathedral
Muniments: Miscellaneous Charters, Ch. 779].

that Waldef. Earl of Dunbar was the son of Gospatric,
Earl of Dunbar [Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous
Charters, Ch. 787]

that Patrick I, Earl of Dunbar was the son of Waldef,
Earl of Dunbar [Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous
Charters, Ch. 764]

that Patrick II, Earl of Dunbar was the son of Patrick
I, Earl of Dunbar [Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous
Charters, Ch. 785]' and so on.

Best wishes!

Peter



At 05:15 AM 30/11/2004 GMT, you wrote:
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:23:35 +0000 (UTC), 7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca
("Peter A. Kincaid") wrote:

Further to my last post. the following appears to be the
reference in Historia Regum regarding the Earls of Northumberland/
Dunbar.

Quo mortuo, Cospatricus, filius Maldredi filii Crinani, Willelmum
regum adiens, multaemptum pecunia adeptus est comitatum
Northymbrensium. Nam ex materno sanguine attinebat ad eum
honor illius comitatus. Erat enim ex matre Algitha, filia Uchtredi
comitis, quam habuit ex Algiva filia Agelredi Regis. Hanc Algitham
pater dedit in conjugium Maldredo filio Crinani. Tenuit autem
comitatum, donec rex causis ex supradictis ei auferret. Fugiens
ergo ad Malcolmum non multo post Flandriam navigio petit. Cui
post aliquantum tempus Scotiam reverso, donavit ei rex supradictus
Dunbar cum adjacentibus terris in Lodoneio, ut ex his, donec lætiora
redirent tempora, se suosque procuraret. Iste Cospatricus est pater
Dolfini, Walthevi, et Cospatrici. Post Cospatricum datus est
comitatus Walthevo, Siwardi comitis filio [Symeon of Durham.
Symeonis Monachi Opera Omnia: Historia Regum. ed. Thomas
Arnold. 2 vols. (London, 1885). Vol. 2, p. 199. Rolls Series no.
75].

From what I can gather it was Skene who promoted the
connection between the two Crinans. Anyone have any
further history on this?

Anderson's "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers" pp. 80-1 cites
vol. 1, pp. 215-6 of Symeon's work (from his "De Obsessione Dunelmi"),
which Anderson translates as:

"But afterwards when he, that is, Utred, advanced more and more in the
art of war, king Ethelred gave to him as wife his daughter Elfgiva.
And by her he had a daughter Aldgitha, whom her father gave in
marriage to Maldred, son of Crinan the thane; and by her Maldred had
Gospatric, the father of Dolfin, of Waldeve and of Gospatric."

Anderson does take some liberties in his translations (most notably
with respect to names), so the original Latin obviously needs to be
checked (which it is too late for me to do tonight).

Stewart Baldwin



Peter A. Kincaid

Re: Crinan The Thane and Lay Abbot of Dunkeld

Legg inn av Peter A. Kincaid » 04 des 2004 03:21:01

Anderson's "Scottish Annals from English Chroniclers" pp. 80-1 cites
vol. 1, pp. 215-6 of Symeon's work (from his "De Obsessione Dunelmi"),
which Anderson translates as:

"But afterwards when he, that is, Utred, advanced more and more in the
art of war, king Ethelred gave to him as wife his daughter Elfgiva.
And by her he had a daughter Aldgitha, whom her father gave in
marriage to Maldred, son of Crinan the thane; and by her Maldred had
Gospatric, the father of Dolfin, of Waldeve and of Gospatric."

Anderson does take some liberties in his translations (most notably
with respect to names), so the original Latin obviously needs to be
checked (which it is too late for me to do tonight).

Stewart Baldwin


The test in the Rolls series is:

Postea vero illo, scilicet Ucthredo, proficiente magis et magis in re
militari, rex Ethelredus filiam suam Elfgivam ei copulavit uxorem. Ex
qua habuit filliam Aldgitham, quam pater in conjugium dedit Maldredo filio
Crinan tein, ex qua Maldredus Cospatricum, patrem Dolphini et Walteofi, et
Cospatrici [Symeon of Durham. "De Obsessione Dunelmi." Symeonis
Monachi Opera Omnia: Historia Ecclesiæ Dunhelmensis. ed. Thomas
Arnold. (London, 1882). Vol. 1, p. 216. Rolls Series no. 75].

That covers the Earls of Dunbar/Northumberland. However, it is a stretch
to say that this Crinan the thane was the same person as Crinan, Abbot
of Dunkeld.

Best wishes!

Peter

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