Definition of "Dayne"
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Patti Metsch
Definition of "Dayne"
Can anyone on this list provide a definition of the word *dayne* as in *one dayne of bondland* ? It could of course be spelled *dain(e).* Obviously it is a measurement, but is anyone aware of its modern equivalent?
Thanks.
Patti Metsch
Pensacola, FL USA
Thanks.
Patti Metsch
Pensacola, FL USA
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Hmmmmmmmm...
"Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrection!"
James Joyce
And:
1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of
land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
DSH
"Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrection!"
James Joyce
And:
1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of
land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
DSH
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Patti Metsch wrote:
I haven't come across this before, and the following is just a guess:
maybe it isn't an exact measure so much as a description, with "dayne"
perhaps a rendering of "dene" - that is, the land in a small valley, a
natural depression; or possibly in an old dene-hole, an area quarried
for chalk by the Danes; or just a sandy tract, as in "dene and strand"
rights to the shoreline & immediate hinterland.
Peter Stewart
Can anyone on this list provide a definition of the word *dayne* as in *one dayne of bondland* ? It could of course be spelled *dain(e).* Obviously it is a measurement, but is anyone aware of its modern equivalent?
I haven't come across this before, and the following is just a guess:
maybe it isn't an exact measure so much as a description, with "dayne"
perhaps a rendering of "dene" - that is, the land in a small valley, a
natural depression; or possibly in an old dene-hole, an area quarried
for chalk by the Danes; or just a sandy tract, as in "dene and strand"
rights to the shoreline & immediate hinterland.
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Hmmmmmmm...
"The hide is at its root a German word for household. In the Saxon
counties of southern England, it referred to the land sufficient to
support one family, which equaled what the family plowed in a year.
Depending on the fertility of the land, the hide varied from as little
as 60 to as many as 240 acres, but it was typically between 80 and 120.
The bovate, 1/8 of a carucate, also appears in the Domesday Book. Its
origin is Danish and it is found in the northeastern English counties
constituting the Danelaw. ******
A carucata or carucate, like a hide, is approximately 120 acres and like
the bovate was found in the Danish counties.
Plowland or plowgate is equal to a carucate or an area eight oxen can
plow sufficient for a free family to support itself; its origins precede
1100.
The plowland compares with the knight's fee, which was a larger area
sufficient to support a knight's family (perhaps to allow pasture for
animal husbandry). Sulung is a Kentish term for two hides. A yoke in
Kent is 1/4 of a sulung. A virgate is a rod in linear measure and 1/4
of a hide (or 30 acres) as a measure of area in Saxon counties. "
Mark A. Senn
---------------------
A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?
"Watson, the game's afoot!"
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"The hide is at its root a German word for household. In the Saxon
counties of southern England, it referred to the land sufficient to
support one family, which equaled what the family plowed in a year.
Depending on the fertility of the land, the hide varied from as little
as 60 to as many as 240 acres, but it was typically between 80 and 120.
The bovate, 1/8 of a carucate, also appears in the Domesday Book. Its
origin is Danish and it is found in the northeastern English counties
constituting the Danelaw. ******
A carucata or carucate, like a hide, is approximately 120 acres and like
the bovate was found in the Danish counties.
Plowland or plowgate is equal to a carucate or an area eight oxen can
plow sufficient for a free family to support itself; its origins precede
1100.
The plowland compares with the knight's fee, which was a larger area
sufficient to support a knight's family (perhaps to allow pasture for
animal husbandry). Sulung is a Kentish term for two hides. A yoke in
Kent is 1/4 of a sulung. A virgate is a rod in linear measure and 1/4
of a hide (or 30 acres) as a measure of area in Saxon counties. "
Mark A. Senn
---------------------
A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?
"Watson, the game's afoot!"
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
"bovate
Latin, bovata.
The bovate was both a unit of assessment and a peasant landholding unit
found in most of the Danelaw counties. The word bovate is derived from
bos, Latin for an ox. Since there were eight oxen to the standard
Domesday plough team, which could notionally plough 120 acres in an
agricultural year, the bovate was a nominal 15 acres.
These, of course, were fiscal acres which could bear a variable
relationship to the customary acres on the ground. Since customary
acres were normally composed of scattered furlong strips whose size
varied according to the nature of the soils and the shape of the fields,
bovates could vary in size from area to area, or even within the same
manor.
Despite variations in size, however, individual bovates could, like
other peasant holdings, remain fixed in size over generations, even
centuries, their integrity maintained by the power of the lord or the
customs of the manor. They provided the stable base for both the
manorial and the assessment systems.
For more detail, see Frederic Seebohm, The English village community
(fourth edition, 1915); J.H. Round, Feudal England (1895); F.W.
Maitland, Domesday Book and beyond (1897); Cyril Hart, The Danelaw
(1992); and Rosamond Faith, The English peasantry and the growth of
lordship (1997)."
-----------------------
"carucate
Latin, carucata.
The carucate was both a unit of assessment and a peasant landholding
unit found in most of the Danelaw counties. The word carucate is
derived from caruca, Latin for a plough. Since the standard Domesday
plough team could notionally plough 120 acres in an agricultural year,
the carucate was a nominal 120 acres.
These, of course, were fiscal acres which could bear a variable
relationship to the customary acres on the ground. Since customary
acres were normally composed of scattered furlong strips whose size
varied according to the nature of the soils and the shape of the fields,
carucates could vary in size from area to area, or even within the same
manor.
Despite variations in size, however, individual carucates could, like
other peasant holdings, remain fixed in size over generations, even
centuries, their integrity maintained by the power of the lord or the
customs of the manor. They provided the stable base for both the
manorial and the assessment systems.
For more detail, see Frederic Seebohm, The English village community
(fourth edition, 1915); J.H. Round, Feudal England (1895); F.W.
Maitland, Domesday Book and beyond (1897); Reginald Lennard, 'The origin
of the fiscal carucate', Economic History Review, first series, vol. 14
(1944-45), pages 51-63; Cyril Hart, The Danelaw (1992); and Rosamond
Faith, The English peasantry and the growth of lordship (1997)."
----------------------------
DSH
Latin, bovata.
The bovate was both a unit of assessment and a peasant landholding unit
found in most of the Danelaw counties. The word bovate is derived from
bos, Latin for an ox. Since there were eight oxen to the standard
Domesday plough team, which could notionally plough 120 acres in an
agricultural year, the bovate was a nominal 15 acres.
These, of course, were fiscal acres which could bear a variable
relationship to the customary acres on the ground. Since customary
acres were normally composed of scattered furlong strips whose size
varied according to the nature of the soils and the shape of the fields,
bovates could vary in size from area to area, or even within the same
manor.
Despite variations in size, however, individual bovates could, like
other peasant holdings, remain fixed in size over generations, even
centuries, their integrity maintained by the power of the lord or the
customs of the manor. They provided the stable base for both the
manorial and the assessment systems.
For more detail, see Frederic Seebohm, The English village community
(fourth edition, 1915); J.H. Round, Feudal England (1895); F.W.
Maitland, Domesday Book and beyond (1897); Cyril Hart, The Danelaw
(1992); and Rosamond Faith, The English peasantry and the growth of
lordship (1997)."
-----------------------
"carucate
Latin, carucata.
The carucate was both a unit of assessment and a peasant landholding
unit found in most of the Danelaw counties. The word carucate is
derived from caruca, Latin for a plough. Since the standard Domesday
plough team could notionally plough 120 acres in an agricultural year,
the carucate was a nominal 120 acres.
These, of course, were fiscal acres which could bear a variable
relationship to the customary acres on the ground. Since customary
acres were normally composed of scattered furlong strips whose size
varied according to the nature of the soils and the shape of the fields,
carucates could vary in size from area to area, or even within the same
manor.
Despite variations in size, however, individual carucates could, like
other peasant holdings, remain fixed in size over generations, even
centuries, their integrity maintained by the power of the lord or the
customs of the manor. They provided the stable base for both the
manorial and the assessment systems.
For more detail, see Frederic Seebohm, The English village community
(fourth edition, 1915); J.H. Round, Feudal England (1895); F.W.
Maitland, Domesday Book and beyond (1897); Reginald Lennard, 'The origin
of the fiscal carucate', Economic History Review, first series, vol. 14
(1944-45), pages 51-63; Cyril Hart, The Danelaw (1992); and Rosamond
Faith, The English peasantry and the growth of lordship (1997)."
----------------------------
DSH
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
"Danelaw"
"The Danelaw was the area subject to Danish rather than Mercian or West
Saxon law.
Broadly speaking, the Danelaw was the area conquered by the Vikings in
the ninth century. A treaty between King Alfred the Great and the
Danish leader, Guthrum, defined a boundary which is roughly the line of
the modern A5 between London and Chester, with King Alfred's territories
to the south and west, and Guthrum's to the north and east. This
boundary, however, was not stable, and some areas were only briefly
under Viking control and show modest signs of their culture. The
Danelaw was a cultural, not a political unit; and its culture was far
from uniform.
Although the word Danelaw does not itself occur in Domesday Book, there
are plentiful signs of Viking influence there.
The names of territories, institutions, persons, and places were all
affected to varying degrees, as was the language of assessment for
military service and taxation.
The Hundred, hide, and virgate of the south and west become the
***Wapentake, carucate and bovate*** of the north and east, for
instance; and all place-names ending in -by, and many ending in -thorpe,
are among the characteristic signs of Viking influence. Even the
peasant classes and the prevalent types of manor in the Danelaw were
distinctive.
Leslie Abrams, 'Edward the Elder's Danelaw', Edward the Elder, 899-924,
edited by Nicholas J. Higham and David H. Hill (2001), pages 128-43, is
a useful review of the varying definitions of the Danelaw. F.M. Stenton,
Types of manorial structure in the northern Danelaw (1910), is still the
most thorough examination of the characteristic manorial structures of
the Danelaw, superseded only in some points of detail; Cyril R. Hart,
The Danelaw (1992), provides a detailed analysis of much of the Domesday
evidence; and two recent works, Dawn M. Hadley, The northern Danelaw,
its social structure, c.800-1100 (2000), and Cultures in contact:
Scandinavian settlement in England in the ninth and tenth centuries,
edited by Dawn M. Hadley and Julian D. Richards (2000), between them
survey all important aspects of the Viking settlement and its legacy in
the most Scandinavianised part of the Danelaw"
-----------------------------
DSH
"The Danelaw was the area subject to Danish rather than Mercian or West
Saxon law.
Broadly speaking, the Danelaw was the area conquered by the Vikings in
the ninth century. A treaty between King Alfred the Great and the
Danish leader, Guthrum, defined a boundary which is roughly the line of
the modern A5 between London and Chester, with King Alfred's territories
to the south and west, and Guthrum's to the north and east. This
boundary, however, was not stable, and some areas were only briefly
under Viking control and show modest signs of their culture. The
Danelaw was a cultural, not a political unit; and its culture was far
from uniform.
Although the word Danelaw does not itself occur in Domesday Book, there
are plentiful signs of Viking influence there.
The names of territories, institutions, persons, and places were all
affected to varying degrees, as was the language of assessment for
military service and taxation.
The Hundred, hide, and virgate of the south and west become the
***Wapentake, carucate and bovate*** of the north and east, for
instance; and all place-names ending in -by, and many ending in -thorpe,
are among the characteristic signs of Viking influence. Even the
peasant classes and the prevalent types of manor in the Danelaw were
distinctive.
Leslie Abrams, 'Edward the Elder's Danelaw', Edward the Elder, 899-924,
edited by Nicholas J. Higham and David H. Hill (2001), pages 128-43, is
a useful review of the varying definitions of the Danelaw. F.M. Stenton,
Types of manorial structure in the northern Danelaw (1910), is still the
most thorough examination of the characteristic manorial structures of
the Danelaw, superseded only in some points of detail; Cyril R. Hart,
The Danelaw (1992), provides a detailed analysis of much of the Domesday
evidence; and two recent works, Dawn M. Hadley, The northern Danelaw,
its social structure, c.800-1100 (2000), and Cultures in contact:
Scandinavian settlement in England in the ninth and tenth centuries,
edited by Dawn M. Hadley and Julian D. Richards (2000), between them
survey all important aspects of the Viking settlement and its legacy in
the most Scandinavianised part of the Danelaw"
-----------------------------
DSH
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
A bovate is also called an oxgang -- for obvious reasons -- and is
reportedly about 15 acres.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
reportedly about 15 acres.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
1. Joyce IS useful -- because he shows us DAYNE may relate to DAY.
"Calling all dawns to day."
2. "Days Work" of ploughed land in the same tithing? Yes, Possibly.
Small.
3. But all the land values are small in the paragraph below. The
largest is half a virgate, about 7.5 acres.
DSH
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:s2bqd.50838$K7.34832@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
| > Hmmmmmmmm...
| >
| > "Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array!
| > Surrection!"
| >
| > James Joyce
| >
| > And:
| >
| > 1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for
| > 1 messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
| > [Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
| > overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne
| > of land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond.
| > (DD/SP 325/68)
|
| I don't know that James Joyce is much help, in this or anything else -
| but the second quotation may be.
|
| Could this be a local usage or dialect survival meaning "day's work",
as
| in the German "tagwerk" - that is, the amount of land that a
husbandman
| could be expected to plough in a single day?
|
| Peter Stewart
"Calling all dawns to day."
2. "Days Work" of ploughed land in the same tithing? Yes, Possibly.
Small.
3. But all the land values are small in the paragraph below. The
largest is half a virgate, about 7.5 acres.
DSH
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:s2bqd.50838$K7.34832@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
| > Hmmmmmmmm...
| >
| > "Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array!
| > Surrection!"
| >
| > James Joyce
| >
| > And:
| >
| > 1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for
| > 1 messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
| > [Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
| > overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne
| > of land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond.
| > (DD/SP 325/68)
|
| I don't know that James Joyce is much help, in this or anything else -
| but the second quotation may be.
|
| Could this be a local usage or dialect survival meaning "day's work",
as
| in the German "tagwerk" - that is, the amount of land that a
husbandman
| could be expected to plough in a single day?
|
| Peter Stewart
-
Patti Metsch
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Dear Peter:
Thanks for your response. I noted the definition of dene and considered it
for a second, but it doesn't seem to make sense given the context of the
entries I previously posted:
1561: "The same William Gaylard with the same Juliana, with her land, viz. 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland, 3 daynes of overland, formerly of
John Bone..."
1587: "Hugh Gaylord for 1 dayne of bondland lying in the south part of one
meadow..."
1591: Hugh Gaylard for 1 messuage and a half virgate of bondland in the
tithing of Duddleston, formerly of John Bradbeare, and first fined for 1
dayne of bondland in the south part of a meadow..."
You wouldn't have three valleys of land would you? Or a valley of land in
the south part of a meadow?
Patti Metsch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Obviously it is a measurement, but is anyone aware of its modern equivalent?
Thanks for your response. I noted the definition of dene and considered it
for a second, but it doesn't seem to make sense given the context of the
entries I previously posted:
1561: "The same William Gaylard with the same Juliana, with her land, viz. 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland, 3 daynes of overland, formerly of
John Bone..."
1587: "Hugh Gaylord for 1 dayne of bondland lying in the south part of one
meadow..."
1591: Hugh Gaylard for 1 messuage and a half virgate of bondland in the
tithing of Duddleston, formerly of John Bradbeare, and first fined for 1
dayne of bondland in the south part of a meadow..."
You wouldn't have three valleys of land would you? Or a valley of land in
the south part of a meadow?
Patti Metsch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Patti Metsch wrote:
Can anyone on this list provide a definition of the word *dayne* as in
*one dayne of bondland* ? It could of course be spelled *dain(e).*
Obviously it is a measurement, but is anyone aware of its modern equivalent?
I haven't come across this before, and the following is just a guess:
maybe it isn't an exact measure so much as a description, with "dayne"
perhaps a rendering of "dene" - that is, the land in a small valley, a
natural depression; or possibly in an old dene-hole, an area quarried
for chalk by the Danes; or just a sandy tract, as in "dene and strand"
rights to the shoreline & immediate hinterland.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Patti Metsch wrote:
Quite so - I didn't see your previous post. If this term isn't used more
widely - and I have no idea if that is so - could it nevertheless be a
measure derived from the size of a local dene-hole?
Peter Stewart
Dear Peter:
Thanks for your response. I noted the definition of dene and considered it
for a second, but it doesn't seem to make sense given the context of the
entries I previously posted:
1561: "The same William Gaylard with the same Juliana, with her land, viz. 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland, 3 daynes of overland, formerly of
John Bone..."
1587: "Hugh Gaylord for 1 dayne of bondland lying in the south part of one
meadow..."
1591: Hugh Gaylard for 1 messuage and a half virgate of bondland in the
tithing of Duddleston, formerly of John Bradbeare, and first fined for 1
dayne of bondland in the south part of a meadow..."
You wouldn't have three valleys of land would you? Or a valley of land in
the south part of a meadow?
Quite so - I didn't see your previous post. If this term isn't used more
widely - and I have no idea if that is so - could it nevertheless be a
measure derived from the size of a local dene-hole?
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
1. Joyce IS useful -- because he shows us DAYNE may relate to DAY.
"Calling all dawns to day."
2. "One Day's Work" of ploughed land in the same tithing? Yes,
Possibly. Small.
3. But all the land values are small in the paragraph below. The
largest is half a virgate, about 7.5 acres.
4. "One cottage with curtilage containing one dayne of land in the same
tithing." Perhaps John's yard and vegetable garden. Close enough to
hopefully keep the bunrabs away. A chicken coop, outhouse and sheds.
5. Serf John Sevenok's holdings.
6. Plus His Other Assets:
"messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune..."
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Calling all dawns to day."
2. "One Day's Work" of ploughed land in the same tithing? Yes,
Possibly. Small.
3. But all the land values are small in the paragraph below. The
largest is half a virgate, about 7.5 acres.
4. "One cottage with curtilage containing one dayne of land in the same
tithing." Perhaps John's yard and vegetable garden. Close enough to
hopefully keep the bunrabs away. A chicken coop, outhouse and sheds.
5. Serf John Sevenok's holdings.
6. Plus His Other Assets:
"messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune..."
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
I don't know that James Joyce is much help, in this or anything else -
but the second quotation may be.
Could this be a local usage or dialect survival meaning "day's work", as
in the German "tagwerk" - that is, the amount of land that a husbandman
could be expected to plough in a single day?
Peter Stewart
Hmmmmmmmm...
"Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrection!"
James Joyce
And:
1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of
land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
I don't know that James Joyce is much help, in this or anything else -
but the second quotation may be.
Could this be a local usage or dialect survival meaning "day's work", as
in the German "tagwerk" - that is, the amount of land that a husbandman
could be expected to plough in a single day?
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
You're quite welcome.
"Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrection!"
DSH
""Patti Metsch"" <pmetsch@cox.net> wrote in message
news:009c01c4d506$16d51580$f6646d44@pn.at.cox.net...
| Thanks to Mr. Hines for his informative posts regarding medieval land
| measures (carucate, bovate, etc.).
|
| His entry:
| > 1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for
1
| > messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
| > [Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
| > overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne
of
| > land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
| appears to be from the same source as my abbreviated examples earlier.
That
| is, from Burton W. Spears' work _Search for the Passengers of the Mary
and
| John _ (1985), whereby the author cites the Books of Fines.
|
| The Gaylords and Sevenoaks both held land in the manor of Taunton
Deane, co.
| Somerset, so perhaps the term was a local one as Mr. Stewart suggests?
The
| idea that it might be the amount of land one could work in a day's
time
| seems to makes sense, also. Maybe someone will find a more definitive
| answer!
|
| Thanks for the discussion -
|
| Patti Metsch
| Pensacola, FL USA
"Calling all downs. Calling all downs to dayne. Array! Surrection!"
DSH
""Patti Metsch"" <pmetsch@cox.net> wrote in message
news:009c01c4d506$16d51580$f6646d44@pn.at.cox.net...
| Thanks to Mr. Hines for his informative posts regarding medieval land
| measures (carucate, bovate, etc.).
|
| His entry:
| > 1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for
1
| > messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
| > [Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
| > overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne
of
| > land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
| appears to be from the same source as my abbreviated examples earlier.
That
| is, from Burton W. Spears' work _Search for the Passengers of the Mary
and
| John _ (1985), whereby the author cites the Books of Fines.
|
| The Gaylords and Sevenoaks both held land in the manor of Taunton
Deane, co.
| Somerset, so perhaps the term was a local one as Mr. Stewart suggests?
The
| idea that it might be the amount of land one could work in a day's
time
| seems to makes sense, also. Maybe someone will find a more definitive
| answer!
|
| Thanks for the discussion -
|
| Patti Metsch
| Pensacola, FL USA
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
<snip>
Is there a rationale for these particular suggestions, or are you
working on the theory that "dayne" is likely to be just another name for
any one of the better-known land measurements?
If anyone has access to a copy, it would be interesting to know if
"dayne" is mentioned in _A Dictionary of Weights and Measures for the
British Isles: the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century_, by Ronald
Zupko, Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society 168 (Philadelphia,
1985).
And by the way I should apologise to James Joyce fans for implying
before that his work is not helpful - if you happen to be suffering from
insomnia or constipation, his writing can be very useful indeed.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?
Is there a rationale for these particular suggestions, or are you
working on the theory that "dayne" is likely to be just another name for
any one of the better-known land measurements?
If anyone has access to a copy, it would be interesting to know if
"dayne" is mentioned in _A Dictionary of Weights and Measures for the
British Isles: the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century_, by Ronald
Zupko, Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society 168 (Philadelphia,
1985).
And by the way I should apologise to James Joyce fans for implying
before that his work is not helpful - if you happen to be suffering from
insomnia or constipation, his writing can be very useful indeed.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
But how do we know that "Calling all downs to dayne" means "calling all
dawns to day", whatever THAT means?
And how do we know that Joyce knew what "dayne" meant as a land measure
in Tudor England?
If Joyce had written this in "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" we
might suppose it meant something, to him and potentially to us, but
later than that it was probably just another excrescence from the love
of his own verbiage.
Peter Stewart
1. Joyce IS useful -- because he shows us DAYNE may relate to DAY.
"Calling all dawns to day."
But how do we know that "Calling all downs to dayne" means "calling all
dawns to day", whatever THAT means?
And how do we know that Joyce knew what "dayne" meant as a land measure
in Tudor England?
If Joyce had written this in "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" we
might suppose it meant something, to him and potentially to us, but
later than that it was probably just another excrescence from the love
of his own verbiage.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart wrote:
In case anyone wants to make sense of this word from its use by James
Joyce, they might also care to explain the rest of the passage in which
it appears, in _Finnigan's Wake_:
"Sandhyas! Sandhyas! Sandhyas! Calling all downs. Calling all downs to
dayne. Array! Surrection! Eireweeker to the wohld bludyn world. O rally,
O rally, O rally! Phlenxty, O rally! To what lifelike thyne of the bird
can be. Seek you somany matters. Haze sea east to Osseania. Here! Here!
Tass, Patt, Staff, Woff, Havv, Bluvv and Rutter. The smog is lofting.
And already the olduman's olduman has godden up on othertimes to
litanate the bonnamours. Sonne feine, somme feehn avaunt! Guld modning,
have yous viewsed Piers' aube? Thane yaars agon we have used yoors up
since when we have fused now orther. Calling all daynes. Calling all
daynes to dawn. The old breeding bradsted culminwillth of natures to
Foyn MacHooligan. The leader, the leader! Securest jubilends albas
Temoram. Clogan slogan. Quake up, dim dusky, wook doom for husky! And
let Billey Feghin be baallad out of his humuluation. Confindention to
churchen. We have highest gratifications in announcing to pewtewr
publikumst of pratician pratyusers, genghis is ghoon for you."
See what I mean?
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
1. Joyce IS useful -- because he shows us DAYNE may relate to DAY.
"Calling all dawns to day."
But how do we know that "Calling all downs to dayne" means "calling all
dawns to day", whatever THAT means?
And how do we know that Joyce knew what "dayne" meant as a land measure
in Tudor England?
If Joyce had written this in "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" we
might suppose it meant something, to him and potentially to us, but
later than that it was probably just another excrescence from the love
of his own verbiage.
In case anyone wants to make sense of this word from its use by James
Joyce, they might also care to explain the rest of the passage in which
it appears, in _Finnigan's Wake_:
"Sandhyas! Sandhyas! Sandhyas! Calling all downs. Calling all downs to
dayne. Array! Surrection! Eireweeker to the wohld bludyn world. O rally,
O rally, O rally! Phlenxty, O rally! To what lifelike thyne of the bird
can be. Seek you somany matters. Haze sea east to Osseania. Here! Here!
Tass, Patt, Staff, Woff, Havv, Bluvv and Rutter. The smog is lofting.
And already the olduman's olduman has godden up on othertimes to
litanate the bonnamours. Sonne feine, somme feehn avaunt! Guld modning,
have yous viewsed Piers' aube? Thane yaars agon we have used yoors up
since when we have fused now orther. Calling all daynes. Calling all
daynes to dawn. The old breeding bradsted culminwillth of natures to
Foyn MacHooligan. The leader, the leader! Securest jubilends albas
Temoram. Clogan slogan. Quake up, dim dusky, wook doom for husky! And
let Billey Feghin be baallad out of his humuluation. Confindention to
churchen. We have highest gratifications in announcing to pewtewr
publikumst of pratician pratyusers, genghis is ghoon for you."
See what I mean?
Peter Stewart
-
Patti Metsch
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Thanks to Mr. Hines for his informative posts regarding medieval land
measures (carucate, bovate, etc.).
His entry:
is, from Burton W. Spears' work _Search for the Passengers of the Mary and
John _ (1985), whereby the author cites the Books of Fines.
The Gaylords and Sevenoaks both held land in the manor of Taunton Deane, co.
Somerset, so perhaps the term was a local one as Mr. Stewart suggests? The
idea that it might be the amount of land one could work in a day's time
seems to makes sense, also. Maybe someone will find a more definitive
answer!
Thanks for the discussion -
Patti Metsch
Pensacola, FL USA
measures (carucate, bovate, etc.).
His entry:
1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of
land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
appears to be from the same source as my abbreviated examples earlier. That
is, from Burton W. Spears' work _Search for the Passengers of the Mary and
John _ (1985), whereby the author cites the Books of Fines.
The Gaylords and Sevenoaks both held land in the manor of Taunton Deane, co.
Somerset, so perhaps the term was a local one as Mr. Stewart suggests? The
idea that it might be the amount of land one could work in a day's time
seems to makes sense, also. Maybe someone will find a more definitive
answer!
Thanks for the discussion -
Patti Metsch
Pensacola, FL USA
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart wrote:
There is no mention of "dayne" in Zupko's work, depite the care he takes
to include local terms, and even nonce words where he finds them, as
well as giving every different spelling encountered in the enormous
bibliography.
At the risk of continuing the scatological tone that has occurred on SGM
lately, I suspect that a "dayne of land" refers to the area of a former
municipal cesspit after it was covered over. These may have been dug to
a standard size in the particular locality, of course.
The OED gives as a definition for "dain": "Repulsiveness of smell;
stink, noisome effluvia. Still used in this sense in the west of
England". (The example given was from Somerset if I remember correctly.)
The only instance of "dayne" in Tudor times that I can find under any of
the possible spellings is this line of verse:
"From bowres of heauenly hewe, to dennes of dayne".
Interesting that James Joyce would summon "downs to dayne" and "daynes
to dawn". Although I don't suppose for a moment that he knew what he was
talking about, beyond his habitual silliness in wordplay, I'm sure he
deserved whatever he got.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
snip
A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?
Is there a rationale for these particular suggestions, or are you
working on the theory that "dayne" is likely to be just another name for
any one of the better-known land measurements?
If anyone has access to a copy, it would be interesting to know if
"dayne" is mentioned in _A Dictionary of Weights and Measures for the
British Isles: the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century_, by Ronald
Zupko, Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society 168 (Philadelphia,
1985).
There is no mention of "dayne" in Zupko's work, depite the care he takes
to include local terms, and even nonce words where he finds them, as
well as giving every different spelling encountered in the enormous
bibliography.
At the risk of continuing the scatological tone that has occurred on SGM
lately, I suspect that a "dayne of land" refers to the area of a former
municipal cesspit after it was covered over. These may have been dug to
a standard size in the particular locality, of course.
The OED gives as a definition for "dain": "Repulsiveness of smell;
stink, noisome effluvia. Still used in this sense in the west of
England". (The example given was from Somerset if I remember correctly.)
The only instance of "dayne" in Tudor times that I can find under any of
the possible spellings is this line of verse:
"From bowres of heauenly hewe, to dennes of dayne".
Interesting that James Joyce would summon "downs to dayne" and "daynes
to dawn". Although I don't suppose for a moment that he knew what he was
talking about, beyond his habitual silliness in wordplay, I'm sure he
deserved whatever he got.
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Hmmmmmm...
Peter Stewart = Great Australian Literary Critic?
Hilarious!
James Joyce's reputation will endure.
Matthew 7:6
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:d%vqd.51736$K7.8020@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| Interesting that James Joyce would summon "downs to dayne" and "daynes
| to dawn". Although I don't suppose for a moment that he knew what he
| was talking about, beyond his habitual silliness in wordplay, I'm sure
he
| deserved whatever he got.
|
| Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart = Great Australian Literary Critic?
Hilarious!
James Joyce's reputation will endure.
Matthew 7:6
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:d%vqd.51736$K7.8020@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| Interesting that James Joyce would summon "downs to dayne" and "daynes
| to dawn". Although I don't suppose for a moment that he knew what he
| was talking about, beyond his habitual silliness in wordplay, I'm sure
he
| deserved whatever he got.
|
| Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Errant Twaddle...
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| " having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| " having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Errant Twaddle...
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| ...having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| ...having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Now you are flatly lying again, Spencer.
It actually took you just 33 minutes from one to the other.
Remember this, posted by YOU ((28/11/2004 11:20):
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
<snip>
And the following, posted by YOU (28/11/2004 11:53):
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
<snip>
You can't argue with the archive, Spencer, and there's no use fibbing
about what's in it. You suggested placing 120 acres within the curtilage
of a cottage, just as I said.
Peter Stewart
Errant Twaddle...
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| " having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
Now you are flatly lying again, Spencer.
It actually took you just 33 minutes from one to the other.
Remember this, posted by YOU ((28/11/2004 11:20):
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
<snip>
1505-6. Poundisford. 41s from John Sevenok, serf of the lord, for 1
messuage and half a virgate of bondland in the tithing of Blakdon
[Blagdon], 2 acres land of overland in Mirlynche, 2 acres land of
overland in Cromedoune, 1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of
land in the same tithing by grant of Edmund Weylond. (DD/SP 325/68)
And the following, posted by YOU (28/11/2004 11:53):
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
<snip>
A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?
You can't argue with the archive, Spencer, and there's no use fibbing
about what's in it. You suggested placing 120 acres within the curtilage
of a cottage, just as I said.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Are you so proud of this lie that you decided to post it twice, Spencer
- or is your noodle bollixed up today!
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
- or is your noodle bollixed up today!
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Errant Twaddle...
I never did anything of the sort.
Peter's noodle just never has been the same, ever since he fell off that
motorcycle in a drunken stupor at Oxford and smashed said Stewartian
noodle into a cobblestone.
His reading, writing and ratiocinating skills have been bollixed up ever
since.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MGLqd.52826$K7.42671@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| ...having suggested placing 120 acres within a cottage's curtilage.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Well-Spotted!
Sounds Garden-Sized.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1c0.21230b3e.2edd1238@aol.com...
| I'm not sure if anyone came up with an answer to this as I deleted
| most of the messages unread, but the following suggests that a
| dayne must be less than 1/6th of an acre.
|
| Adrian
|
|
| A2A: Somerset Archive and Record Service: Helyar documents and
muniments from
| Coker Court
| FILE - Grant - ref. DD\WHh/581 - date: nd, c.1270s
| [from Scope and Content] By Hugh Lovel, lord of Karycastel to John le
Gaunt
| of Brywton, of an acre and six "dayne" of arable land, and two acres
of meadow
| in Colle (Cole) on the north side of the water of Bryw. (in Bruton
Hundred).
Sounds Garden-Sized.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1c0.21230b3e.2edd1238@aol.com...
| I'm not sure if anyone came up with an answer to this as I deleted
| most of the messages unread, but the following suggests that a
| dayne must be less than 1/6th of an acre.
|
| Adrian
|
|
| A2A: Somerset Archive and Record Service: Helyar documents and
muniments from
| Coker Court
| FILE - Grant - ref. DD\WHh/581 - date: nd, c.1270s
| [from Scope and Content] By Hugh Lovel, lord of Karycastel to John le
Gaunt
| of Brywton, of an acre and six "dayne" of arable land, and two acres
of meadow
| in Colle (Cole) on the north side of the water of Bryw. (in Bruton
Hundred).
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart is peddling twaddle, tripe and codswallop again -- from
his peddler's wagon Down Under.
I never wrote that the _dayne_ must be 120 acres and contained in the
curtilage of a cottage.
If I had MEANT to say that I would have WRITTEN it ---- plainly -- so
any fool would be able to see it, sans tutoring -- even Stultus Peter
Stewart.
But I did NOT write it because I have never BELIEVED it.
Peter's damaged noodle is betraying him again. His reading
comprehension and thinking skills are bollixed.
I'm GENUINELY SORRY about that ---- but I WILL continue to counter his
damaged-noodle statements -- which bear NO conceivable relation to
TRUTH -- or even to truths ---- As A PUBLIC SERVICE....
Horse Manure --- even dear Peter's Horse Manure -- must not be allowed
to stand unchallenged. The children will get the wrong idea and be
misled by Aussi Petrine smoke, mirrors, persiflage and balderdash.
Peter has a damaged noodle -- garnered from a drunken night on a
motorcycle and a Stewartian noodle impact with a cobblestone at
Oxford -- during his wild, reckless salad days.
Hence he says and writes VERY FOOLISH things from time to time -- and
he's obviously getting WORSE -- as his noodle continues to DETERIORATE.
Sad!
Deus Vult.
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
his peddler's wagon Down Under.
I never wrote that the _dayne_ must be 120 acres and contained in the
curtilage of a cottage.
If I had MEANT to say that I would have WRITTEN it ---- plainly -- so
any fool would be able to see it, sans tutoring -- even Stultus Peter
Stewart.
But I did NOT write it because I have never BELIEVED it.
Peter's damaged noodle is betraying him again. His reading
comprehension and thinking skills are bollixed.
I'm GENUINELY SORRY about that ---- but I WILL continue to counter his
damaged-noodle statements -- which bear NO conceivable relation to
TRUTH -- or even to truths ---- As A PUBLIC SERVICE....
Horse Manure --- even dear Peter's Horse Manure -- must not be allowed
to stand unchallenged. The children will get the wrong idea and be
misled by Aussi Petrine smoke, mirrors, persiflage and balderdash.
Peter has a damaged noodle -- garnered from a drunken night on a
motorcycle and a Stewartian noodle impact with a cobblestone at
Oxford -- during his wild, reckless salad days.
Hence he says and writes VERY FOOLISH things from time to time -- and
he's obviously getting WORSE -- as his noodle continues to DETERIORATE.
Sad!
Deus Vult.
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Gjest
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
I'm not sure if anyone came up with an answer to this as I deleted most of
the messages unread, but the following suggests that a dayne must be less than
1/6th of an acre.
Adrian
A2A: Somerset Archive and Record Service: Helyar documents and muniments from
Coker Court
FILE - Grant - ref. DD\WHh/581 - date: nd, c.1270s
[from Scope and Content] By Hugh Lovel, lord of Karycastel to John le Gaunt
of Brywton, of an acre and six "dayne" of arable land, and two acres of meadow
in Colle (Cole) on the north side of the water of Bryw. (in Bruton Hundred).
the messages unread, but the following suggests that a dayne must be less than
1/6th of an acre.
Adrian
A2A: Somerset Archive and Record Service: Helyar documents and muniments from
Coker Court
FILE - Grant - ref. DD\WHh/581 - date: nd, c.1270s
[from Scope and Content] By Hugh Lovel, lord of Karycastel to John le Gaunt
of Brywton, of an acre and six "dayne" of arable land, and two acres of meadow
in Colle (Cole) on the north side of the water of Bryw. (in Bruton Hundred).
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Stewart-san had best get himself a BRAIN SCAN before FALSELY accusing
someone of LYING again. I sincerely hope these techniques will work on
Peter's damaged noodle. Perhaps they will even reveal NEW damaged areas
in the Petrine noodle:
DSH
------------------------
"Brain scan shows differences in truth, lying"
29 Nov 2004
Reuters
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
"WASHINGTON, Nov 29 (Reuters) - Brain scans show that the brains of
people who are lying look very different from those of people who are
telling the truth, U.S. researchers said on Monday.
The study, using functional magnetic resonance imaging or fMRI, not only
sheds light on what goes on when people lie but may also provide new
technology for lie-detecting, the researchers said.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in deception that can
be measured with fMRI," said Dr. Scott Faro, director of the Functional
Brain Imaging Center at Temple University School of Medicine in
Philadelphia.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in truth-telling," Faro
added at a news conference.
Faro and colleagues tested 10 volunteers. Six of them were asked to
shoot a toy gun and then lie and say they didn't do it. Three others
who watched told the truth about what happened. One volunteer dropped
out of the study.
While giving their "testimony," the volunteers were hooked up both to a
conventional polygraph and also had their brain activity imaged using
fMRI, which used a strong magnet to provide a real-time picture of brain
activity.
There were clear differences between the liars and the truth-tellers,
Faro's team told a meeting in Chicago of the Radiological Society of
North America.
"We found a total of seven areas of activation in the deception
(group)," he said. "We found four areas of activity in the
truth-telling arm."
Overall, it seemed to take more brain effort to tell the lie than to
tell the truth, Faro found.
Hilarious! People have known THAT for years. ---- DSH
Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain --- the medial
inferior and pre-central areas, as well as the hippocampus and middle
temporal regions and the limbic areas. Some of these are involved in
emotional responses, Faro said.
During a truthful response, the fMRI showed activation of parts of the
brain's frontal lobe, temporal lobe and cingulate gyrus.
Faro said the study was small and limited. Volunteers were not asked to
try especially hard to deceive the equipment, he said -- noting that it
has been documented that some people can fool a polygraph using various
techniques.
Using fMRI as a lie detector is expensive, but it may be worthwhile in
some cases -- such as trying to question a terrorism suspect, or in a
high-profile corporate crime case, Faro said."
--------------------------------------------------------
Or even when someone, such as Stewart-san, LIES or falsely accuses
someone ELSE of LYING ---- which is ALSO often a LIE -- on USENET.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Deus Vult.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
someone of LYING again. I sincerely hope these techniques will work on
Peter's damaged noodle. Perhaps they will even reveal NEW damaged areas
in the Petrine noodle:
DSH
------------------------
"Brain scan shows differences in truth, lying"
29 Nov 2004
Reuters
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
"WASHINGTON, Nov 29 (Reuters) - Brain scans show that the brains of
people who are lying look very different from those of people who are
telling the truth, U.S. researchers said on Monday.
The study, using functional magnetic resonance imaging or fMRI, not only
sheds light on what goes on when people lie but may also provide new
technology for lie-detecting, the researchers said.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in deception that can
be measured with fMRI," said Dr. Scott Faro, director of the Functional
Brain Imaging Center at Temple University School of Medicine in
Philadelphia.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in truth-telling," Faro
added at a news conference.
Faro and colleagues tested 10 volunteers. Six of them were asked to
shoot a toy gun and then lie and say they didn't do it. Three others
who watched told the truth about what happened. One volunteer dropped
out of the study.
While giving their "testimony," the volunteers were hooked up both to a
conventional polygraph and also had their brain activity imaged using
fMRI, which used a strong magnet to provide a real-time picture of brain
activity.
There were clear differences between the liars and the truth-tellers,
Faro's team told a meeting in Chicago of the Radiological Society of
North America.
"We found a total of seven areas of activation in the deception
(group)," he said. "We found four areas of activity in the
truth-telling arm."
Overall, it seemed to take more brain effort to tell the lie than to
tell the truth, Faro found.
Hilarious! People have known THAT for years. ---- DSH
Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain --- the medial
inferior and pre-central areas, as well as the hippocampus and middle
temporal regions and the limbic areas. Some of these are involved in
emotional responses, Faro said.
During a truthful response, the fMRI showed activation of parts of the
brain's frontal lobe, temporal lobe and cingulate gyrus.
Faro said the study was small and limited. Volunteers were not asked to
try especially hard to deceive the equipment, he said -- noting that it
has been documented that some people can fool a polygraph using various
techniques.
Using fMRI as a lie detector is expensive, but it may be worthwhile in
some cases -- such as trying to question a terrorism suspect, or in a
high-profile corporate crime case, Faro said."
--------------------------------------------------------
Or even when someone, such as Stewart-san, LIES or falsely accuses
someone ELSE of LYING ---- which is ALSO often a LIE -- on USENET.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Deus Vult.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter A. Kincaid
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Actually, his point was valid. Your rapid posts seemed to
contradict what you know believe. It is clear that you did
not know what a dayne was and formulated your opinion
as the thread progressed. No need to get defensive
by being so aggressive. I am sure that, as someone stated,
there is a history of bad blood in this thread. Surely you
have more useful posts for us rather than sinking to the
apparent character of a load bearing farm animal of the
medieval sort.
Best wishes!
Peter
At 12:31 AM 30/11/2004 -0000, you wrote:
contradict what you know believe. It is clear that you did
not know what a dayne was and formulated your opinion
as the thread progressed. No need to get defensive
by being so aggressive. I am sure that, as someone stated,
there is a history of bad blood in this thread. Surely you
have more useful posts for us rather than sinking to the
apparent character of a load bearing farm animal of the
medieval sort.
Best wishes!
Peter
At 12:31 AM 30/11/2004 -0000, you wrote:
Stewart-san had best get himself a BRAIN SCAN before FALSELY accusing
someone of LYING again. I sincerely hope these techniques will work on
Peter's damaged noodle. Perhaps they will even reveal NEW damaged areas
in the Petrine noodle:
DSH
------------------------
"Brain scan shows differences in truth, lying"
29 Nov 2004
Reuters
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
"WASHINGTON, Nov 29 (Reuters) - Brain scans show that the brains of
people who are lying look very different from those of people who are
telling the truth, U.S. researchers said on Monday.
The study, using functional magnetic resonance imaging or fMRI, not only
sheds light on what goes on when people lie but may also provide new
technology for lie-detecting, the researchers said.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in deception that can
be measured with fMRI," said Dr. Scott Faro, director of the Functional
Brain Imaging Center at Temple University School of Medicine in
Philadelphia.
"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in truth-telling," Faro
added at a news conference.
Faro and colleagues tested 10 volunteers. Six of them were asked to
shoot a toy gun and then lie and say they didn't do it. Three others
who watched told the truth about what happened. One volunteer dropped
out of the study.
While giving their "testimony," the volunteers were hooked up both to a
conventional polygraph and also had their brain activity imaged using
fMRI, which used a strong magnet to provide a real-time picture of brain
activity.
There were clear differences between the liars and the truth-tellers,
Faro's team told a meeting in Chicago of the Radiological Society of
North America.
"We found a total of seven areas of activation in the deception
(group)," he said. "We found four areas of activity in the
truth-telling arm."
Overall, it seemed to take more brain effort to tell the lie than to
tell the truth, Faro found.
Hilarious! People have known THAT for years. ---- DSH
Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain --- the medial
inferior and pre-central areas, as well as the hippocampus and middle
temporal regions and the limbic areas. Some of these are involved in
emotional responses, Faro said.
During a truthful response, the fMRI showed activation of parts of the
brain's frontal lobe, temporal lobe and cingulate gyrus.
Faro said the study was small and limited. Volunteers were not asked to
try especially hard to deceive the equipment, he said -- noting that it
has been documented that some people can fool a polygraph using various
techniques.
Using fMRI as a lie detector is expensive, but it may be worthwhile in
some cases -- such as trying to question a terrorism suspect, or in a
high-profile corporate crime case, Faro said."
--------------------------------------------------------
Or even when someone, such as Stewart-san, LIES or falsely accuses
someone ELSE of LYING ---- which is ALSO often a LIE -- on USENET.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Deus Vult.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Nope, Stewart is still lying and unhinged.
I did not suggest anything about 120 acres in a curtilage equating to a
dayne.
I posted a whole series of posts [about ten] on this issue in a
relatively short period of time in order to get some raw meat on the
table -- which we could then pick over and discuss.
Several people found the information quite useful. One thanked me for
it -- and Stewart himself found it quite useful -- then went off his
noodle with an amusing tirade against James Joyce.
Stewart has now plucked lines from two entirely different posts of mine
and falsely and maliciously pretends that they relate to each other.
They do not.
Also, Stewart is so stupid he doesn't understand the meaning of a
QUESTION MARK.
So:
"A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?"
Is not definitive of or even suggestive of ANYTHING.
It is a QUESTION.
A QUESTION is not either a STATEMENT or a SUGGESTION ---- any fool knows
that ---- but not Stewart.
Bad Show.
Stewart's VERY badly damaged noodle is betraying him once again.
Quite Pitiful....
No Sale.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
I did not suggest anything about 120 acres in a curtilage equating to a
dayne.
I posted a whole series of posts [about ten] on this issue in a
relatively short period of time in order to get some raw meat on the
table -- which we could then pick over and discuss.
Several people found the information quite useful. One thanked me for
it -- and Stewart himself found it quite useful -- then went off his
noodle with an amusing tirade against James Joyce.
Stewart has now plucked lines from two entirely different posts of mine
and falsely and maliciously pretends that they relate to each other.
They do not.
Also, Stewart is so stupid he doesn't understand the meaning of a
QUESTION MARK.
So:
"A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?"
Is not definitive of or even suggestive of ANYTHING.
It is a QUESTION.
A QUESTION is not either a STATEMENT or a SUGGESTION ---- any fool knows
that ---- but not Stewart.
Bad Show.
Stewart's VERY badly damaged noodle is betraying him once again.
Quite Pitiful....
No Sale.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Comments interspersed:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
And I never said you wrote that a dayne "must be 120 acres" - I said you
suggested this. Now you choose not to quote the post I amde to prove
this. That is another lie, blatantly deliberate & dishonest on your part.
You first quoted:
"1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of land in the same tithing"
and 33 minutes later wrote:
"A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?"
But the curtilage of a cottage - as indeed a cottage entire - could not
extend to more than 120 acres in order to contain such a measure. Your
knowledge and imagination are equally faulty: Somerset is not the
Mid-West, and its cottages are not "The Little House on the Prairie".
SIMPLE AS THAT, Spencer. You suggested this, and it was nonsense.
The rest of your lurid diatribe below is just more self-serving
falsehood. You CANNOT escape the record, it's plain for all to see.
And since you pretend to lecture Todd Farmerie on ethics, try showing
some of your own and apologising publicly for your baseless, unhinged
insults.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Peter Stewart is peddling twaddle, tripe and codswallop again -- from
his peddler's wagon Down Under.
I never wrote that the _dayne_ must be 120 acres and contained in the
curtilage of a cottage.
And I never said you wrote that a dayne "must be 120 acres" - I said you
suggested this. Now you choose not to quote the post I amde to prove
this. That is another lie, blatantly deliberate & dishonest on your part.
If I had MEANT to say that I would have WRITTEN it ---- plainly -- so
any fool would be able to see it, sans tutoring -- even Stultus Peter
Stewart.
You first quoted:
"1 cottage with curtilage containing 1 dayne of land in the same tithing"
and 33 minutes later wrote:
"A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?"
But the curtilage of a cottage - as indeed a cottage entire - could not
extend to more than 120 acres in order to contain such a measure. Your
knowledge and imagination are equally faulty: Somerset is not the
Mid-West, and its cottages are not "The Little House on the Prairie".
SIMPLE AS THAT, Spencer. You suggested this, and it was nonsense.
The rest of your lurid diatribe below is just more self-serving
falsehood. You CANNOT escape the record, it's plain for all to see.
And since you pretend to lecture Todd Farmerie on ethics, try showing
some of your own and apologising publicly for your baseless, unhinged
insults.
Peter Stewart
But I did NOT write it because I have never BELIEVED it.
Peter's damaged noodle is betraying him again. His reading
comprehension and thinking skills are bollixed.
I'm GENUINELY SORRY about that ---- but I WILL continue to counter his
damaged-noodle statements -- which bear NO conceivable relation to
TRUTH -- or even to truths ---- As A PUBLIC SERVICE....
Horse Manure --- even dear Peter's Horse Manure -- must not be allowed
to stand unchallenged. The children will get the wrong idea and be
misled by Aussi Petrine smoke, mirrors, persiflage and balderdash.
Peter has a damaged noodle -- garnered from a drunken night on a
motorcycle and a Stewartian noodle impact with a cobblestone at
Oxford -- during his wild, reckless salad days.
Hence he says and writes VERY FOOLISH things from time to time -- and
he's obviously getting WORSE -- as his noodle continues to DETERIORATE.
Sad!
Deus Vult.
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Well, it's more than plain to all readers that Spencer Hines is a lying
fool who won't admit the obvious.
A question of course is a kind of suggestion, since if it can't be
answered in the positive it would not be posed in the first place: if
Spencer didn't think that a dayne might be the same as a carucate of
about 120 acres, why ask if it could "conceivably" be so?
And he had already posted the statement about the curtilage of a cottage
containing a dayne - ergo, he thought 120 acres could "conceivably" lie
within the curtilage of a cottage. That is utter tommyrot, as is his
persistance in denying the bald facts now.
Spencer is "conceivably" lying in a dayne of his own digging. Putrid,
unethical, and inane.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
fool who won't admit the obvious.
A question of course is a kind of suggestion, since if it can't be
answered in the positive it would not be posed in the first place: if
Spencer didn't think that a dayne might be the same as a carucate of
about 120 acres, why ask if it could "conceivably" be so?
And he had already posted the statement about the curtilage of a cottage
containing a dayne - ergo, he thought 120 acres could "conceivably" lie
within the curtilage of a cottage. That is utter tommyrot, as is his
persistance in denying the bald facts now.
Spencer is "conceivably" lying in a dayne of his own digging. Putrid,
unethical, and inane.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Nope, Stewart is still lying and unhinged.
I did not suggest anything about 120 acres in a curtilage equating to a
dayne.
I posted a whole series of posts [about ten] on this issue in a
relatively short period of time in order to get some raw meat on the
table -- which we could then pick over and discuss.
Several people found the information quite useful. One thanked me for
it -- and Stewart himself found it quite useful -- then went off his
noodle with an amusing tirade against James Joyce.
Stewart has now plucked lines from two entirely different posts of mine
and falsely and maliciously pretends that they relate to each other.
They do not.
Also, Stewart is so stupid he doesn't understand the meaning of a
QUESTION MARK.
So:
"A DAYNE is possibly equivalent to a bovate, about 15 acres ---- or
conceivably to a carucate, about 120 acres?"
Is not definitive of or even suggestive of ANYTHING.
It is a QUESTION.
A QUESTION is not either a STATEMENT or a SUGGESTION ---- any fool knows
that ---- but not Stewart.
Bad Show.
Stewart's VERY badly damaged noodle is betraying him once again.
Quite Pitiful....
No Sale.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart = Bent Noodle
As Foolish Youth At Oxford University, Drunk -- Fell Off Motorcycle &
Smashed Noodle Against Cobblestone -- Hard
Left Oxford Without Degree Because Of Scrambled Noodle -- Now Even More
Foolish Adult
Obviously Getting Worse -- As We Observe On USENET
Benny Hill On Steroids
Hilarious!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
As Foolish Youth At Oxford University, Drunk -- Fell Off Motorcycle &
Smashed Noodle Against Cobblestone -- Hard
Left Oxford Without Degree Because Of Scrambled Noodle -- Now Even More
Foolish Adult
Obviously Getting Worse -- As We Observe On USENET
Benny Hill On Steroids
Hilarious!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
So - no acknowledgement of flagrant error by Spencer, just as with
deponent verbs and his ignorance of Latin that was made glaringly
obvious to all.
Just more silly, schoolgirlishly capitalised and irrelevant dissembling
on a subject he CAN'T know about.
He lies in the faces of SGM readers, distorts what others wrote in order
to make false representations about discussions we can all check, and
yet lectures individuals here on personal and professional "ethics".
No-one but Spencer is deceived by Spencer.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart = Bent Noodle
As Foolish Youth At Oxford University, Drunk -- Fell Off Motorcycle &
Smashed Noodle Against Cobblestone -- Hard
Left Oxford Without Degree Because Of Scrambled Noodle -- Now Even More
Foolish Adult
Obviously Getting Worse -- As We Observe On USENET
Benny Hill On Steroids
Hilarious!
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
So - no acknowledgement of flagrant error by Spencer, just as with
deponent verbs and his ignorance of Latin that was made glaringly
obvious to all.
Just more silly, schoolgirlishly capitalised and irrelevant dissembling
on a subject he CAN'T know about.
He lies in the faces of SGM readers, distorts what others wrote in order
to make false representations about discussions we can all check, and
yet lectures individuals here on personal and professional "ethics".
No-one but Spencer is deceived by Spencer.
Peter Stewart
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart is a congenital liar.
He himself told me about the impact to his head because of the fall from
a motorcycle, while intoxicated, and the consequent bent noodle.
And it's obviously getting worse....
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
He himself told me about the impact to his head because of the fall from
a motorcycle, while intoxicated, and the consequent bent noodle.
And it's obviously getting worse....
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
Peter Stewart is a congenital liar -- running for the tall grass -- with
his tail between his legs.
He was DRUNK [he prevaricates and says "tipsy"] fell off a motorbike,
cracked his noodle on a cobblestone at Oxford -- and he hasn't been the
same since.
Spiraling Down...And Striking Out At Others With Righteous Fury....Truly
Hilarious....
Benny Hill On Steroids.
But GREAT ENTERTAINMENT!
Just Watch Him, Gentle Readers....
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
his tail between his legs.
He was DRUNK [he prevaricates and says "tipsy"] fell off a motorbike,
cracked his noodle on a cobblestone at Oxford -- and he hasn't been the
same since.
Spiraling Down...And Striking Out At Others With Righteous Fury....Truly
Hilarious....
Benny Hill On Steroids.
But GREAT ENTERTAINMENT!
Just Watch Him, Gentle Readers....
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Distoring again, Spencer - is this what the "D." of your first name
stands for?
Or is it maybe "Deponent Spencer Hines"? Or "Dayne Spencer Hines".
A pattern is emerging, the goofs and lies seem to concentrate recently
around the intial "D".
I told you - and the newsgroup - that I had fallen from a motorbike and
hit my head on a cobblestone, acquiring a brain impairment.
As it happens there were witnesses and I was not "intoxicated", but that
is beside the point except insofar as it illustrates your persistence in
untruth.
You have no way of diagnosing my present state of physical or mental
health, much less to make a joke of this in extremely poor taste, and no
justification whatsoever for your sneering lies and misconceived insults
designed to conceal your own stupidities.
Try "conceiving" again of a cottage's curtilage in Somerset big enough
to hold the Vatican, as this would be a more profitable and sensible use
of your low (also evidently low-bred) and rapidly dwindling brainpower.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart is a congenital liar.
He himself told me about the impact to his head because of the fall from
a motorcycle, while intoxicated, and the consequent bent noodle.
And it's obviously getting worse....
Distoring again, Spencer - is this what the "D." of your first name
stands for?
Or is it maybe "Deponent Spencer Hines"? Or "Dayne Spencer Hines".
A pattern is emerging, the goofs and lies seem to concentrate recently
around the intial "D".
I told you - and the newsgroup - that I had fallen from a motorbike and
hit my head on a cobblestone, acquiring a brain impairment.
As it happens there were witnesses and I was not "intoxicated", but that
is beside the point except insofar as it illustrates your persistence in
untruth.
You have no way of diagnosing my present state of physical or mental
health, much less to make a joke of this in extremely poor taste, and no
justification whatsoever for your sneering lies and misconceived insults
designed to conceal your own stupidities.
Try "conceiving" again of a cottage's curtilage in Somerset big enough
to hold the Vatican, as this would be a more profitable and sensible use
of your low (also evidently low-bred) and rapidly dwindling brainpower.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Definition Of "Dayne"
So now Dayne Spencer Hines knowns more about my past than I do, or my
friends who witnessed this past event about which he is so keenly psychic.
I am clearly not "running" anywhere, from anything - I have openly
acknowledged to SGM, without prompting from nuisnaces, my having an
acquired brain impairment. This doesn't trouble me unduly, or embarrass
me at all. It wouldn't be a whit the worse if I had been actually drunk
at the time of the accident on which Spencer now professes himself an
expert, although I wasn't. Certainly I was drunk on other occasions in
my youth, and this too doesn't incommode me in the slightest now.
I don't have a "tail" to put between my legs - Spencer perhaps has
cloven hooves to go with his cloven name, and a spiked tail & horns, but
I don't.
However, on reflection a demon would know the basics of Latin and
wouldn't be silly enough to try correcting someone else on a point of
translation when he didn't have a clue. And a demon would probably be
smart enough to admit his errors or at least cut his losses when
everyone else could see them.
No-one who can't see or acknowledge his own mistakes can even begin to
be a scholar - everyone makes blunders from time to time, but
scholarship is about avoiding, repairing and exposing these STARTING
with oneself. Spencer is yet to graduate to beginner's class.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
friends who witnessed this past event about which he is so keenly psychic.
I am clearly not "running" anywhere, from anything - I have openly
acknowledged to SGM, without prompting from nuisnaces, my having an
acquired brain impairment. This doesn't trouble me unduly, or embarrass
me at all. It wouldn't be a whit the worse if I had been actually drunk
at the time of the accident on which Spencer now professes himself an
expert, although I wasn't. Certainly I was drunk on other occasions in
my youth, and this too doesn't incommode me in the slightest now.
I don't have a "tail" to put between my legs - Spencer perhaps has
cloven hooves to go with his cloven name, and a spiked tail & horns, but
I don't.
However, on reflection a demon would know the basics of Latin and
wouldn't be silly enough to try correcting someone else on a point of
translation when he didn't have a clue. And a demon would probably be
smart enough to admit his errors or at least cut his losses when
everyone else could see them.
No-one who can't see or acknowledge his own mistakes can even begin to
be a scholar - everyone makes blunders from time to time, but
scholarship is about avoiding, repairing and exposing these STARTING
with oneself. Spencer is yet to graduate to beginner's class.
Peter Stewart
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Peter Stewart is a congenital liar -- running for the tall grass -- with
his tail between his legs.
He was DRUNK [he prevaricates and says "tipsy"] fell off a motorbike,
cracked his noodle on a cobblestone at Oxford -- and he hasn't been the
same since.
Spiraling Down...And Striking Out At Others With Righteous Fury....Truly
Hilarious....
Benny Hill On Steroids.
But GREAT ENTERTAINMENT!
Just Watch Him, Gentle Readers....
'Nuff Said.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor